McPherson
Banned
MOO. YMMV.
2. Based on 1., I would expect the reportage to be incomplete fragmentary and co0ntradictory with a lot of LFK 10 exaggerations and mis-information. Post Strike Assessment (PSA) and Battle Damage Analysis (BDA) required photo-reconnaissance and follow up flyovers to confirm estimates. This was USN policy (hence photos of damaged Japanese ships in USN archives are PSA and BDA taken during or after an attack.).
3. The Berlin Maniac being a landlubber and ignorant of airpower must not be cognizant of the time and distance factors in moving forces across a continent. Land forces from Russia to France, take about a week, if everything goes correctly. Air farces take about 2 days with down time for maintenance between sorties. Plus having airplanes sortie in does not mean butkus if the fuel and ammunition are not present, unless the planes fly in already bombed up. (Hence why sending the 32 SBDs and 32 TBDs to Marston, UK from the flattops means they had to lug their ordnance with them. British bombs and torpedoes do not fit American birds.).
4. Coast defense (battleships) becomes very important for the Germans. Fortitude North was a non-starter because there was a KM SAG to intervene in any "suggested" allied landings in the RTL. The landlubber Berlin Maniac did not understand this naval truism.
7. Why are the minesweepers still milling around in front of St Nazaire? They should be running after they sweep.
8. Condors, Me110s, Fokkers, and Stukas fly all together in a deferred departure package. What do they all have in common? Differing altitude bands, cruise speeds, and mutually exclusive operating characteristics. Also see THIS to understand what is happening.
Note the altitudes of attack and the ineffectiveness of the attacks on a standard convoy? LFK 10 BTW.
10. Same goes for the Ju-88s, except they are warbirds and more resistant to AAA fire at this juncture and time of the war.
Northrop’s Norwegian Floatplane Faced the Nazi Invasion
(from Wiki)
17. Sangamons and Commencement Bays should be started now very fast. And a LOT of them.
19. Thomas Hart may have some peculiar notions about submarine warfare. If on the other hand, Withers, English and that idiot, Fife, are cashiered out of the submarine force upon his ascension to SUBCOM and CAPT W.E. Doyle does the right thing and blows his brains out, then SUBPAC might have a chance for what I expect is coming all too soon.
20. Not enough lead time has elapsed to avoid the torpedo crisis and I see the HORS are still going to bite the SUBPAC hard in the screws.
22. USS Chester has to get out of there. The British Eastern Command is a clown club.
23. Save these guys at all costs.
25. Ghormley will be wasted. He was actually rather good at telling Pound where to stuff it in the RTL ABC conferences. Odd that he did not show that spine with the Vichyites running / ruining New Caledonia. This is the reason I think he might have been going insane. That and his teeth.
Just some observations. MOO. YMMV and should. Not gospel and it is not intended to be.
1. Radio reports over widely dispersed forces, contrary to popular histories, were fragmentary and local. The situation buildup of a naval air-sea battle was done at a master plot in WWII as there was no tactical data system that gave position and condition reports, no combat information centers a-ship or a-shore pre-1941 aside from the Admiralty Plotting Room (Battle of the Atlantic) or PACFLT (Pearl Harbor created 1938?) or LANTFLT (Fleet Problem XX?) or the USNWC (Wargame aid since they first krieg-spieled floor exercises back in the 1880s!). The German equivalent was OKdU created after the Fall of France and at this moment would be more of a wolf-pack and convoy tracker with no air combat input at all similar to the Admiralty Plotting Room.Afternoon November 13
In London, Berlin and Paris, commanders as well as Churchill and Hitler wait tensely for reports to come in. The first reports out of the Channel please none of them, as Churchill has to call Roosevelt on the phone and inform him of the death of Kimmel and the frightful damage inflicted on the American battleships, while Hitler is angry that Cerebus has already cost the Kriegsmarine a heavy cruiser and several destroyers. His anger is partly offset that the Luftwaffe seems to have sunk two battleships (as reports are that only 4 of the American group of 6 made port) and orders Goebbels to trumpet that news to the world. By noon the report that St Nazaire is being levelled reaches Berlin and Hitler orders that every available bomber be sent after the Americans there to destroy the other half of their navy. He also insists that every available fighter be allocated to make sure that his ships are not sunk the same way, although he seems confident that likely the British will do the same to his ships that the Luftwaffe has done to the Americans. It is clear to him, and indeed he announces it loudly that battleships are obsolete in the face of bombers. His surface fleet is good only for coast defense only as far as he is concerned. A debate will continue between him and Admiral Raeder for some weeks to come that ultimately saves the rest of the German surface fleet from being scrapped but only at the cost of very serious restrictions being placed on their use. For the rest of the war the German heavy ships will be a very powerful Baltic Fleet and remain there.
2. Based on 1., I would expect the reportage to be incomplete fragmentary and co0ntradictory with a lot of LFK 10 exaggerations and mis-information. Post Strike Assessment (PSA) and Battle Damage Analysis (BDA) required photo-reconnaissance and follow up flyovers to confirm estimates. This was USN policy (hence photos of damaged Japanese ships in USN archives are PSA and BDA taken during or after an attack.).
3. The Berlin Maniac being a landlubber and ignorant of airpower must not be cognizant of the time and distance factors in moving forces across a continent. Land forces from Russia to France, take about a week, if everything goes correctly. Air farces take about 2 days with down time for maintenance between sorties. Plus having airplanes sortie in does not mean butkus if the fuel and ammunition are not present, unless the planes fly in already bombed up. (Hence why sending the 32 SBDs and 32 TBDs to Marston, UK from the flattops means they had to lug their ordnance with them. British bombs and torpedoes do not fit American birds.).
4. Coast defense (battleships) becomes very important for the Germans. Fortitude North was a non-starter because there was a KM SAG to intervene in any "suggested" allied landings in the RTL. The landlubber Berlin Maniac did not understand this naval truism.
5. Why have the CTFs and SAG not rendezvoused mid-ocean at Point Charles for mutual protection?At sea the battle continues. The Fokker torpedo planes and their escort reach the site of the sinking USS California and decide not to attack. They return to base and refuel as reports of the attack on St Nazaire are received and orders from Berlin reach the Luftwaffe in France of their new mission. Meanwhile the German Fleet has now approaching the Straits of Dover, while Allied Force Y is leaving the approaches of St Nazaire and steaming due west at its best speed of 20 knots. The Allied carriers meanwhile have again turned into the wind to launch more fighters and recover returning ones. The Uboats are now hopelessly out of position to reach the carriers but a handful are almost in position to get a chance at the retiring Force Y.
6. Half day to move from east France to west France. Stukas have to refuel and stage in 2 hops, not 1.German attacks on Force Z
The morning battles have been costly although from the standpoint of the bomber crews highly successful. However the Luftwaffe has somewhat diminished forces to attack with. Only 9 He111 torpedo bombers and 11 Fokker floatplane torpedo bombers are available after battle damage and mechanical issues, while the Stukas lack the range to immediately attack and will have to stage from their bases around Calais to bases in Brittany, which will use up much of the afternoon, and so only 50 JU88 dive bombers are available. The bombers will have only two staffel of Me110 night fighters to help them as every available Fw190 and Me109 have been ordered north to support the German fleet. A hurriedly cobbled together strike with 15 FW200 Conders s is ordered against the Allied minesweepers, which have only a single light cruiser protecting them.
7. Why are the minesweepers still milling around in front of St Nazaire? They should be running after they sweep.
8. Condors, Me110s, Fokkers, and Stukas fly all together in a deferred departure package. What do they all have in common? Differing altitude bands, cruise speeds, and mutually exclusive operating characteristics. Also see THIS to understand what is happening.
9. Condors dropped bombs at low altitude and were suicidality vulnerable to AAA auto-cannon fire at these "mast head" attacks they made; being very fragile aircraft.The first to reach their targets are the Conders, which manage several hits although many of the aircraft are damaged and 2 are splashed by British gunners. They succeed in sinking 1 sloop and 3 minesweepers and damaging nearly all of the others to various degrees but the attack has knocked the German bombers out of the battle as they are ill suited to attacking warships. The light cruiser Scylla is undamaged by this attack but once again amateur ship identification results in the leading force of 24 JU88s incorrectly identifying her as a battleship and an attack on her results in 3 hits and major damage and numerous near misses. She and the remainder of her charges continue west before turning north for the Irish Sea as darkness falls.
10. Same goes for the Ju-88s, except they are warbirds and more resistant to AAA fire at this juncture and time of the war.
11. The He 111 was a horrible torpedo plane being worse than the "Hunchback". Also my comment about dud LW torpedoes and Standards kind of remains RTL valid.The next force of 26 Ju88s manages to find the Allied fleet and concentrates on the trailing ship, the USS Oklahoma. This time they are facing a much heavier antiaircraft barrage and the British gunners that make up most of the somewhat larger screen than Force Z had are much better at their job. Only 3 hits are scored although casualties are serious aboard the American ship. As this attack is occurring the Fokker torpedo bombers and their 8 escorting Me110s are pounced on by 6 British and 12 American carrier fighters and suffer terribly. The carrier pilots conduct a more careful battle, with the British holding off the German fighters while the Americans pounce on the lumbering torpedo bombers. None of those survive, and only3 of the German fighters escape. Only 1 Buffalo and 1 Fulmer are lost in the air battle. But distracted, the gunners and fighter pilots miss the arrival of the 9 He111s who pick on the Oklahoma which has fires aboard her and make their attack. They manage two hits, but while attempting to exit all but one are shot up so severely that only one manages to return to base and three more ditch near the coast. The Oklahoma takes both torpedoes aft, one each on the port and starboard side, and one of those hits knocks out her rudders and all but one screw. Admiral Pye orders most of her crew taken off as she seems helpless and unlikely to make port, with only a pair of British destroyers remaining with her as she trails behind the rest of the fleet heading west. Barely making 7 knots, she is found and sunk just before dusk by a spread of 4 torpedoes from the U-43 (Wolfgang Luth commanding). A total of 353 American and 431 British sailors are lost from Force Y, while German deaths ashore and in the air number around 600.
12. FDR was a Hollander at heart. He will handle it just fine with Winston in his usual way,, but his American admirals are not going to like it one bit when he demands an explanation of them.Prime Minister Churchill is forced to make another unpleasant phone call to President Roosevelt.
13. These are Bliss Leavitt fish, not the Goat Island Mark XIIIs. They will work. HOWEVER, I will stipulate that the Mark XIIIs here ITTL are clangers, porpoisers and self scuttles and are premature exploders. Hence ITTL, the Atomic Playboy and Tower, that other son of a bitch, should have some tall explaining to do in story, after LANTFLT reports weapon deficiencies. See 12. for why.Death of the German Fleet
Meanwhile the two German battlecruisers, with only 4 destroyers and 8 Eboats as their escort and covered by 32 fighters overheard are approaching the Straits of Dover and Admiral Ramsey’s waiting forces. American and British strike aircraft are also waiting, having assembled over Kent with their substantial fighter escort. The result is nothing short of murder. The British MTB’s charge in, distracting the German gunners, while the British destroyers wait just outside of the range of German guns in Calais and north of the strait. While the torpedo boats charge, the American and British torpedo planes go in at low altitude while the American dive bombers plunge from overhead and 60 British fighters tangle with the German fighters and reinforcements that join them. The German gunners are overwhelmed but still manage to take a toll, downing 4 American and 3 British torpedo planes and a pair of dive bombers as well as sinking 2 MTBs and damaging most of the others to varying degrees. The British MTBs however sink 2 Eboats, drive off the rest and force the German destroyers to engage them which leaves plenty of openings for the strike aircraft to smother the German heavy ships. The Scharnhorst takes 3 bomb and 6 torpedo hits, the Gneisenau takes 2 bomb and 5 torpedo hits (although in the confusion no one notices that the American torpedoes seem to be failing) and both ships are soon listing and burning. Neither survives long past dusk and the British destroyers dash in and finish both with torpedo attacks. A total of 2,000 German sailors are lost from the fleet, and all of the German ships that survive limp into Le Havre with various degrees of damage. It is a glorious Allied victory and although nearly 30 Allied aircraft (7 American, the rest British) are lost to a similar number of German aircraft, it would appear that the Allies have proven Hitler’s point. Admiral Ramsey’s reputation, already high after Dunkirk, rises yet again. Admiral Ciliax manages to survive the loss of his ships, and spends the remainder of the war as a naval attache to Brazil.
14. See my joke post #428. Estimate 2 years? RTL, the series of refits and modernizations (in 3 separate stages) took about that long. If it is one whole go at it, I might see a year to rebuild superstructure after the buzzcut, suppress casemates, trunk funnels, install new AAA and directors, re-boiler and new improved turbine sets, and give them all nose jobs. What saves a lot of time is that the electric generator and motor components of the turbo-electric plants do not have to be stripped out, rewired and remounted. This alone saves 3 months and justifies the nose jobs.Epilogue
Admiral Kimmel has achieved his goals. The German fleet has been destroyed, St Nazaire is no longer capable of repairing the Tirpitz, and most of his ships survived. He and two battleships, the Oklahoma and California have not however, and the battleships West Virginia, Maryland, Nevada, New Mexico and Mississippi will spend nearly the entirety of 1942 in dock being repaired and modernized. Although nearly 3,000 British and American sailors have died or are missing or crippled, it is a great victory as far as Roosevelt and Churchill are concerned in public. Hitler is angered by the defeat, which is but the first of the bad news that will face him in November and December 1941 as Barbarrosa fails to take Moscow and Leningrad. The German surface fleet will spend the remainder of the war in the Baltic Sea, only seeing useful service late in the war supporting German forces along the Baltic coast. The modern North Carolina and South Dakota class will never see service in the Atlantic or European theater.
14a. These are two of the ATL Standards in the ...Those Marvelous Tin Fish: The Great Torpedo Scandal Avoided ATL as rebuilds that will show up about late 1942 or early 1943. The justification for the nose jobs is FDR and some rearrangement of build priorities (No Alaskas and earlier deferment of the Montanas.)
15. There is another clown who needs to be on the next plane to the Aleutians with Pye and Stark. Let "HAP" count penguins with those other idiots. The B-18 "Bolo" was called that for a reason. How about someBattle of the Atlantic October-December 1941
Nimitz, commanding Atlantic Fleet, is a persuasive and charismatic man, and has an easier time with Roosevelt and the Army than his predecessor King had. By October he has managed to trade the Army Air Force access to long range bombers immediately for the Air Force getting out of the ASW mission,, and that has netted him 30 B17s (plus 9 more transferred back from the British), plus Army Air Force strips the 6th, 43rd and 30th Bomb Groups of their LB30/B24s (nearly 100 in all) for the Navy to use, and by late November sufficient air crew have been trained in their use for some of them to begin patrols in the Caribbean and near Iceland. Another 200 B18 Bolos leave the Army and although initially using borrowed Army crews, can begin local patrols off the Atlantic Coast right away. Another 300 of the Martin Baltimore which had been slated for Lend Lease are transferred to the Navy for ASW work, along with the entire production run planned for the PV2 Harpoon. Most of these aircraft will not be available before 1942, and indeed another 1,000 B24s will join the Navy as well, but most will not show up before late 1942 and early 1943. But by the end of December, over 400 aircraft are available to patrol American coastal and regional waters and provide some support into the Atlantic. The Army even gives the Navy the B18s currently in Hawaii for local patrols. Most of the Army personnel will go to other groups working up, are reequipped with medium bombers as they become available. Hap Arnold is relieved to be able to concentrate on what he thinks is important, the eventual strategic bombing offensive against Germany.
Northrop’s Norwegian Floatplane Faced the Nazi Invasion
(from Wiki)
Mr. RIKKO says; "Hi!" Might be useful later on even with that CRAP Wright engine.Specifications (N-3PB)[edit]
Northrop N-3PB in "Little Norway" colours, c. 1941
Data from War Planes of the Second World War: Volume Six Floatplanes,[38] The Encyclopedia of Weapons of World War II[29]
General characteristics
Performance
- Crew: Three (pilot, navigator/bombardier and wireless operator/rear gunner)
- Length: 36 ft (11 m)
- Wingspan: 48 ft 11 in (14.91 m)
- Height: 12 ft (3.7 m)
- Wing area: 376.8 sq ft (35.01 m2)
- Empty weight: 6,190 lb (2,808 kg)
- Gross weight: 8,500 lb (3,856 kg)
- Max takeoff weight: 10,600 lb (4,808 kg)
- Powerplant: 1 × Wright GR-1820-G205A 9-cyl. air-cooled radial piston engine, 1,200 hp (890 kW)
- Propellers: 3-bladed variable-pitch propeller
Armament
- Maximum speed: 257 mph (414 km/h, 223 kn) at sea level
- Cruise speed: 184 mph (296 km/h, 160 kn)
- Range: 1,000 mi (1,600 km, 870 nmi)
- Service ceiling: 24,000 ft (7,300 m)
- Time to altitude: 15,000 ft (4,600 m) in 4.4 minutes
- Guns: 4 × fixed forward firing 0.50 in (12.70 mm) machine guns
- 2 × 0.30 in (7.62 mm) machine guns in dorsal and ventral positions
- Bombs: 1 × 2,000 lb (910 kg) torpedo or equivalent weight of bombs or depth charges
16. None of these items means a thing without a traffic control and routing system (10th Fleet) for the Intercoastal Waterway or the Caribbean.The US Navy has other forces available as well. The US Coast Guard provides 21 cutters (basically equal to a British corvette or sloop depending on size), and 61 submarine chasers (useful for inshore patrol and rescue work), with 6 more cutters commissioning or working up and 30 armed yachts fitting out and working up (which adds another 36 sloop types). Additional yachts are being acquired, and the Coast Guard has plans to lay down additional (and more modern) cutters as well. This provides 82 escort ships for Iceland, the Eastern Sea Frontier plus the already 41 obsolete but useful Wilkes/Clemson class and 56 minesweepers already assigned to those areas (although 4 of the destroyers are usually patrolling the Pacific side of Panama) plus the 4 light cruisers patrolling the Pacific side and 4 additional old destroyers that escort them. By December Nimitz has managed to end attacks on US coastal shipping in the Atlantic and Gulf of Mexico and the Caribbean is only seeing sporadic attacks. After November and the end of Operation Chariot, an additional 9 destroyers joins the Atlantic Fleet from US Forces Europe, and he has all but relegated the old battleships New York and Arkansas to training ships in Chesapeake Bay to free up large numbers of useful experienced personnel. Both of his carriers have been sent to US Navy Europe, along with their escorts, and he has to say good bye to the Yorktown and its escorts in December when it is sent to the West Coast. However that still gives him around 45 destroyers for Atlantic duty of which 30 are usually available (the rest refitting). German Uboats sink only 90 ships (around 500,000 tons total) during the Fall, in part due to poor weather but also because of the distraction of Operation Chariot and improved American defenses.
17. Sangamons and Commencement Bays should be started now very fast. And a LOT of them.
18. The idea of Pye, who should be diagnosed in the first stages of mental instability, by now, of modernizing anything is ehhh....However on December 1, 1941, Admiral Nimitz is promoted out of his job as commander of Atlantic Fleet and made Chief of Naval Operations and Commander in Chief US Fleet after Admiral Stark is sent to replace Admiral Kimmel in Britain and Admiral Pye is given command of Battle Force Atlantic, which has only 6 battleships (all under repair or refitting) and responsibility for overseeing their modernization. The first thing Nimitz does is request Admiral Thomas Hart as Commander, US Submarine Forces and have him sent to Washington to take charge of this critical arm. The previous commander retires and is placed on the Navy Board.
19. Thomas Hart may have some peculiar notions about submarine warfare. If on the other hand, Withers, English and that idiot, Fife, are cashiered out of the submarine force upon his ascension to SUBCOM and CAPT W.E. Doyle does the right thing and blows his brains out, then SUBPAC might have a chance for what I expect is coming all too soon.
20. Not enough lead time has elapsed to avoid the torpedo crisis and I see the HORS are still going to bite the SUBPAC hard in the screws.
21. Wilkes? No way. He should be cashiered.The Pacific Fleet Fall 1941
Admiral King is gravely alarmed at the weak state of the US Navy in the Pacific but is careful in his criticism and requests. He does manage to get the carrier Yorktown along with Admiral Newton and 4 cruisers and 9 destroyers sent to the Pacific, as well as 18 newly completed, commissioned and worked up destroyers as they become available October-December 1941 (although several arrive in January 1942) and every available fleet oiler. His biggest coup however is the disestablishment of the Asiatic Fleet, and creation of US Naval Forces Far East which is a much smaller in size and authority, and which also falls under his operational command. He immediately orders 23 Fleet submarines to Pearl Harbor as he feels Cavite is hopeless to defend in the event of war, and also orders the CA Houston and 4 light cruisers back to Pearl Harbor, along with their 4 destroyers. Along with them 2 tankers and 2 gunboats (both of those are sent to Samoa), and the remaining 21 S Boat submarines are placed under the command of RAdm Thomas Rivers (who supercedes Captains John Wilkes who is slated to take over Submarine squadron 20). This leaves only the heavy cruiser Chester in the far Pacific, and it is operating with the British out of Singapore. He also ruthlessly strips the Philippines of trained personnel (reducing the gunboat crews to less than half strength or less) as well as the 4th Marine Regiment which he sends to Samoa. Admiral Hart is initially angered by this move but his new job overseeing the entire US Navy Submarine Force is a more than a token and he rapidly dives into the role, making his first visit to Pearl Harbor on December 5, 1941.
22. USS Chester has to get out of there. The British Eastern Command is a clown club.
23. Save these guys at all costs.
24. Lockwood is too junior as of yet. It might as well be Carpendar, so we can blame him for the torpedo crisis and send him to the Aleutians while Lockwood learns the ropes for a year as a division and squadron commander.Vice Admiral Robert Ghormley is made commander US Naval Forces Far East, and also given the principal job of coordinating between the US Pacific Fleet and British and Dutch naval forces in the Far East. Commander of the 16th Naval District, RAdm Thomas Rockwell remains in tactical command of the forces directly assigned to defend the Philippines (gunboats, minesweepers and PT Boats), while a new ComSubPac is plucked from his job as naval attache in London and RAdm Charles Lockwood arrives in Pearl Harbor with his boss Admiral Hart on December 5.
25. Ghormley will be wasted. He was actually rather good at telling Pound where to stuff it in the RTL ABC conferences. Odd that he did not show that spine with the Vichyites running / ruining New Caledonia. This is the reason I think he might have been going insane. That and his teeth.
26. How will he have the 6-6 program? Unless somehow the SoDaks take 2 years instead of 3 and the horrible Independences actually show up as scheduled? What is his tanker status and has the fleet taken over air defense as well as fleet defense for Hawaii or is that IDIOT, Short, still running it on the army side?The other problem King has is aircraft. He has only around 40 aircraft available for the Philippines, and only (including newly transferred Army bombers) around 100 for Pearl Harbor to conduct patrols with. No more are likely to be forthcoming at present as the Atlantic Fleet has first call until more units are trained up and equipped. However with 4 carriers he is much more confidant about defending the Hawaiian Islands, Alaska and approaches to Panama and feels reasonably certain he can defend the sea lanes to Australia if war breaks out. He is also promised all of the new fleet carriers and new battleships as they are worked up, and indeed within 14 months he will have 6 carriers and 6 fast battleships, enough to fight the Japanese with and even conduct an offensive. King continues to ruthlessly train his ships and crews who spend weeks at a time at sea (mostly in the waters between Hawaii and California) and conducts a fleet problem in late November near Panama. He is still reviewing the initial report of Operation Chariot when the Japanese launch their massive carrier air strike on Wake Island on December 8, 1941.
Just some observations. MOO. YMMV and should. Not gospel and it is not intended to be.
Last edited: