Given the sheer amount of bloody inertia involved in the US torpedo scandal (they refused to even test them at first, let alone listen to any of the complaints in a serious manner) probably not.
Remember the Texas! The United States in World War II (an alternate history)
- Thread starter galveston bay
- Start date
Yeah, Texas had rusted through to be basically open to the sea. She very, very, very badly needs this refit.
I question this. Station X broke into HYDRA, the main operational Enigma key of the Kriegsmarine, in mid-1941. HYDRA was used for U-boat operations at that time, and thus ULTRA provided the Admiralty with U-boat positions. This allowed the Admiralty to "play blind-man's-buff with their eyes open", that is, maneuver convoys around the U-boat scout lines. Without sightings, the U-boats could not execute "wolfpack" attacks. Allied shipping losses in in OTL July-November 1941 averaged 60% less than in January-June. (U-boat losses were also very low in the period; only 13 OTL compared to 22 ITTL.)
I do note shipping losses shot back up in OTL December 1941. And so did U-boat losses: 10 that month compared to 9 in the previous three months, and 11 in the next three months. Is this echoed in the higher losses ITTL? Also, while the massive shipping losses of OTL early 1942 coincided with the PAUKENSCHLAG deployment to US coastal waters, at this time the Kriegsmarine switched the U-boats to a new Enigma key, TRITON, which Station X couldn't read until November.
I also note that 2M tons of shipping lost in "the first six months after the US entry" ITTL is less than half the losses in OTL's first seven months. Is this outcome an intended compromise? I.e. the U-boats do better than OTL late 1941 because they can attack US waters, but worse than OTL early 1942, because Station X is reading their Enigma traffic?
yeah, thats a staggering amount of water coming in. Kind of amazed she didn't sink at her moorings but apparently the pumps just held it at bay
TTL King is already unhappy with the results of the first Pacific war patrols by ComSubPac and is asking questions already. But initially it will see captains being relieved (a lot were initially). It will be at least another couple of patrols and the reports generated by a number of submarine commanders before the weapons really get examined carefully.
Out of curiosity, were any of those captains reinstated after it was found the torpedoes were primarily at fault?
historically the reliefs were due to lack of aggression, although in some cases competence was an issue. In a few extreme cases actual psychological breakdown occured. I don't have an answer to your question but my guess would be they were reassigned to something less important and forced out of the Navy postwar
A new era in naval warfare
A new era in naval warfare
In a twelve month period beginning in November 1940 ending in November 1941, the supremacy of the battleship has been called into serious question, and now for many American and British naval leaders, the power of the carrier task force as the Japanese carriers strike at will in the Pacific in December brings the issue to a head. At Taranto, Cape Matapan, the evacuation of Greece and Crete, the sinking of the Bismark, Operation Cerebrus and Operation Chariot all saw battleships and the somewhat weaker battle cruisers and heavy cruisers take a severe pounding from the air to the point that several were sunk by surface and submarine forces or simply knocked out of the battle (in modern parlance, mission killed) when attacked by dive and torpedo bombers when operating with limited or no air cover. In short it is clear that a gunship fleet must have air protection to remain a viable force.
In the United States, this results in cancellation of the Alaska class big gun super cruiser, the first of which is about to be laid down in December 1941, which is canceled as result of the fate of the two German battle crusers in the English Channel. The proposed Montana class is also canceled, while the British permanently shelf the planned Lion class. The Japanese also react, canceling plans for the Shinano as a battleship and begin converting her into what will be a massive aircraft carrier, although the Yamato and Musashi continue as both are nearly ready for service. The Americans also continue their battleships that are well underway, with the South Dakota class (4 ships) and Iowa class (4 ships) to be completed, although a 5th Iowa which has not yet been started is instead canceled. It is decided however that the Wisconsin, which is the last ordered will be instead renamed the USS Texas. The British decide to continue work on the HMS Vanguard and increase her priority as modern battleships are needed in the Mediterranean and in case the Germans ever leave the Baltic Sea (when the Tirpitz is commissioned) and it is clear that the Americans will not be sending any of their 10 modern fast battleships to the Atlantic.
It is also now completely clear that the pre-war battleships badly need increased antiaircraft protection. The Americans decide to take the opportunity, since all 3 of the Colorado class are in refit or repair as well as the Tennessee (and would have included the California had she not been sunk), to carry out the proposed interwar modernization that had been canceled due to budgets in the 1930s. All four of the ships will get larger anti-torpedo bulges, and their 5 inch batteries will now have turreted 5/38 mounts instead of the open mounts they have now. This will keep all 4 ships out of service for an entire year but all will be available when offensive operations in the Pacific and against Europe are planned. Although still slow, they will be far more survivable and will be able to face anything the Japanese have in commission as the existence of the Yamato is not yet known when the decision is made. It also frees up thousands of valuable sailors, even more so when the New York and Arkansas are relegated to the status of training ships and left with a bare bones crew. This leaves the Americans with 6 old battleships for the Atlantic, and no battleships for the Pacific until the North Carolina and Washington get their propeller vibration issues fixed. However as escorts more urgently needed for convoy duty in the Atlantic and there is a shortage of oilers in the Pacific, neither fleet really needs them just now.
For the British they decide to soldier on with their battleships for now, although clearly the power Japanese carrier force makes it very risky to commit anything except for the modern King George V class to that theater and those ships are also needed in the Mediterranean too. Plus at least a couple of fast battleships are needed at home too, just in case the Germans ever finish the Tirpitz and send it to sea. However unlikely that appears now. But the 4 surviving R class are too slow to face the Italians in the Mediterranean or the Japanese, and simply are not needed as bombardment ships at this time. All four are ordered home and either become antiaircraft training ships (Revenge and Royal Sovereign) or are ordered laid up (Ramilies and Resolution).
The Germans decide to complete the Tirpitz, as they only have only 2 surviving pocket battleships and a single surviving heavy cruiser remaining, and will keep them in the Baltic Sea as training ships and to provide gunfire support next year against the Soviets. However this does allow Germany to free up some fuel oil to the Italians for a planned operation in March / April 1942, as well as radar sets and technicians to operate them for the Italian surface fleet for that operation. The Japanese make no changes to their battleship fleet, indeed discarding the idea to convert two of the older ones into carrier hybrids. However all three of the Axis navies look at providing their surface warships with far more anti-aircraft guns,something the Americans and British are also doing.
It is clear to all navies however that to operate without air cover is to suffer unnecessary or potentially crippling losses to air attack to the point that a fleet can no longer accomplish missions without it. It must have either land based or carrier based air cover and thus the carrier has moved to the fore.
In a twelve month period beginning in November 1940 ending in November 1941, the supremacy of the battleship has been called into serious question, and now for many American and British naval leaders, the power of the carrier task force as the Japanese carriers strike at will in the Pacific in December brings the issue to a head. At Taranto, Cape Matapan, the evacuation of Greece and Crete, the sinking of the Bismark, Operation Cerebrus and Operation Chariot all saw battleships and the somewhat weaker battle cruisers and heavy cruisers take a severe pounding from the air to the point that several were sunk by surface and submarine forces or simply knocked out of the battle (in modern parlance, mission killed) when attacked by dive and torpedo bombers when operating with limited or no air cover. In short it is clear that a gunship fleet must have air protection to remain a viable force.
In the United States, this results in cancellation of the Alaska class big gun super cruiser, the first of which is about to be laid down in December 1941, which is canceled as result of the fate of the two German battle crusers in the English Channel. The proposed Montana class is also canceled, while the British permanently shelf the planned Lion class. The Japanese also react, canceling plans for the Shinano as a battleship and begin converting her into what will be a massive aircraft carrier, although the Yamato and Musashi continue as both are nearly ready for service. The Americans also continue their battleships that are well underway, with the South Dakota class (4 ships) and Iowa class (4 ships) to be completed, although a 5th Iowa which has not yet been started is instead canceled. It is decided however that the Wisconsin, which is the last ordered will be instead renamed the USS Texas. The British decide to continue work on the HMS Vanguard and increase her priority as modern battleships are needed in the Mediterranean and in case the Germans ever leave the Baltic Sea (when the Tirpitz is commissioned) and it is clear that the Americans will not be sending any of their 10 modern fast battleships to the Atlantic.
It is also now completely clear that the pre-war battleships badly need increased antiaircraft protection. The Americans decide to take the opportunity, since all 3 of the Colorado class are in refit or repair as well as the Tennessee (and would have included the California had she not been sunk), to carry out the proposed interwar modernization that had been canceled due to budgets in the 1930s. All four of the ships will get larger anti-torpedo bulges, and their 5 inch batteries will now have turreted 5/38 mounts instead of the open mounts they have now. This will keep all 4 ships out of service for an entire year but all will be available when offensive operations in the Pacific and against Europe are planned. Although still slow, they will be far more survivable and will be able to face anything the Japanese have in commission as the existence of the Yamato is not yet known when the decision is made. It also frees up thousands of valuable sailors, even more so when the New York and Arkansas are relegated to the status of training ships and left with a bare bones crew. This leaves the Americans with 6 old battleships for the Atlantic, and no battleships for the Pacific until the North Carolina and Washington get their propeller vibration issues fixed. However as escorts more urgently needed for convoy duty in the Atlantic and there is a shortage of oilers in the Pacific, neither fleet really needs them just now.
For the British they decide to soldier on with their battleships for now, although clearly the power Japanese carrier force makes it very risky to commit anything except for the modern King George V class to that theater and those ships are also needed in the Mediterranean too. Plus at least a couple of fast battleships are needed at home too, just in case the Germans ever finish the Tirpitz and send it to sea. However unlikely that appears now. But the 4 surviving R class are too slow to face the Italians in the Mediterranean or the Japanese, and simply are not needed as bombardment ships at this time. All four are ordered home and either become antiaircraft training ships (Revenge and Royal Sovereign) or are ordered laid up (Ramilies and Resolution).
The Germans decide to complete the Tirpitz, as they only have only 2 surviving pocket battleships and a single surviving heavy cruiser remaining, and will keep them in the Baltic Sea as training ships and to provide gunfire support next year against the Soviets. However this does allow Germany to free up some fuel oil to the Italians for a planned operation in March / April 1942, as well as radar sets and technicians to operate them for the Italian surface fleet for that operation. The Japanese make no changes to their battleship fleet, indeed discarding the idea to convert two of the older ones into carrier hybrids. However all three of the Axis navies look at providing their surface warships with far more anti-aircraft guns,something the Americans and British are also doing.
It is clear to all navies however that to operate without air cover is to suffer unnecessary or potentially crippling losses to air attack to the point that a fleet can no longer accomplish missions without it. It must have either land based or carrier based air cover and thus the carrier has moved to the fore.
The Colorado class and Tennessee are getting the modifications and upgrades the historical West Virginia and California got post Pearl Harbor, and will be subject to some delays not reentering service until the end of 1943 as other priorities will rear their head. The Vanguard will not be subject to the delays and halts it suffered historically however, as some of the final work will be done in the US once she is able to steam there. The Japanese carrier battleship hybrids were simply a stupid idea.
And I though that they could converte at least one Alaska cruiser as a carrier (and kept in the Atlantic)
yeah... and a huge budget sink while they developed it. As pretty as the Alaska class ships were, they lacked a mission aside from carrier escort and there are plenty of carrier escorts available that are either cheaper or will be more capable (when the fast battleships hit the fleet). although it is fun to fight the Alaskas against the German twins in games..
An Army in transition: British and associated Ground Forces December 1941
The British Commonwealth ground forces December 1941
Over 2 years of war against the Germans have forced a lot of changes upon the British Army and its offshoots. For the first year severe shortages in equipment and arms along with staggering losses of both in France, Greece and North Africa have been a serious drag on its training, efficiency and expansion. However Lend Lease and massive expansions in production of home have finally ended that problem. Just as importantly, the entry of the United States and Soviet Union into the war has ended the threat (such as it was) of German Invasion of the British Isles, and thus has allowed the release of troops for service overseas and return of a the veteran Indian and ANZAC formations home to provide cadres for expanded armies for India and Australia, and expanded force structure for New Zealand as well. Unfortunately the Japanese invasion of Malaya and Burma comes at a time when the Australians and Indians are least prepared for it, as the bulk of their divisions are not combat ready as the veteran units have been stripped of around 65% of their veteran troops to provide cadres for new divisions and those men have been replaced by barely trained recruits. Equipment too is in short supply as shipping shortages and other priorities have meant that new vehicles and arms have been slow to reach Australia, New Zealand and India due to the long distances from Britain and lack of direct (initially) Lend Lease from North America to those Commonwealth nations.
Much of the British Army is in transit in late 1941 as there is a serious concern that the Soviets will collapse and a German invasion of the Mideast (and possible Turkish intervention with them) is possible.
British Army deployment December 1941
Mideast Command (Brooke)
Western Desert 8th Army (Montgomery)
1st Armored Division* 7th Armored Division* 10th Armored Division*, 1st South African Infantry Division, 2nd South African Infantry Division, 2nd UK Infantry Division, 18th Infantry Division, 70th Infantry Division,
Egypt/Syria/Lebanon/Palestine/Jordan/Iraq 9th Army (Wilson)
1st Infantry Division, 3rd Infantry Division, 4th Infantry Division, 5th Infantry Division, 8th Armored Division* (consists of the worst damaged units from the 1st,7th, and 10th Armored Divisions), 8th Infantry Division (consists of the worst mauled units of the 2nd, 18th and 70th Infantry Divisions)
all four of the infantry divisions arrived between October and the end of December and not all of their heavy weapons or vehicles have arrived yet. For now they are handling security along with an infantry brigade in Cyprus and the 4th New Zealand Infantry Brigade (volunteers from 2nd NZ Division)
En route
15th Infantry Division (Scottish) en route (slated for Iraq)
Home forces
11th Armored Division (preparing for deployment to Mideast), Guards Armored Division (preparing for deployment to Mideast), 7th Infantry Division, 43rd (Wessex) Infantry Division **, 44th (Home Counties) Infantry Division**, 46th Infantry Division, 48th (Midland) Infantry Division**, 49th (West Riding) Infantry Division**, 50th (Northhumbrian) Infantry Division**, 51st (Highland) Infantry Division, 52nd (Lowland) Infantry Division, 53rd (Wessex) Infantry Division**, 78th Infantry Division (preparing for shipment to Middle East).
Plus Malta Brigade Group (essentially a division in size), Gibraltar garrison, and various infantry divisions that are actually training units.
Plus Canadian 1st, 2nd, 3rd Infantry Divisions and the 4th and 5th Canadian Divisions will be deployed when ready
*Refitting and not ready for offensive operations
**A brigade has been stripped from each and is en route or preparing to leave for India to provide British infantry brigades for Indian Divisions in training or forming.
India/Persia/Burma Command (Auchinleck)
Burma
17th Indian Infantry Division*, 1st Burma Infantry Division*
the Japanese have inflicted series losses on all 5 divisions in the opening stages of the campaign and the 11th Indian faced real danger of disintegration and having to be completely reorganized (although that time is unlikely).
Persia Garrison
4th Indian Infantry Division*, 5th Indian Infantry Division*, 6th Indian Infantry Division*, 14th Indian Infantry Division (available for redeployment, awaiting transport), 31st Indian Armored Division (equipped with obsolete vehicles)
en route to India
8th Indian Infantry Division, 10th Indian Infantry Division (moving into strategic reserve in India having recently been transferred from Persia)
Northwest Frontier
7th Indian Infantry Division, 32nd Cavalry Division (formerly armored but lack of tanks sees it being reconverted back to its original role as a horse cavalry division)
forming (training status, have a cadre from the 4th, 5th or 6th Indian Division, plus will gain a brigade each of British troops en route from Britain with the remainder consisting of new recruits. None are combat ready lacking equipment, with the bulk of their troops still learning there jobs and lacking the British component which is en route. None will be ready for a few months for anything except line of communications or security duty).
19Th, 20th, 23rd, 25th, 26th, 34th, 36th Indian Infantry Divisions
43rd Infantry and 44th Armored Division are both at even an earlier stage of formation consisting of a few headquarters staff
Southwest Pacific Command (Wavell)
Malaya
9th Indian Infantry Division, 11th Indian Infantry Division*, 4th Australian Infantry Division*
Rabaul
Lark Force (a reinforced battalion group)
Port Moresby
30th Australian Infantry Brigade
Darwin
19th Australian Brigade Group
en route home
6th, 7th, 9th Australian Imperial Force Divisions (less heavy equipment)
2nd New Zealand Division (less heavy equipment and 1 brigad
training (all Australian)
1st Armored Division, 1st Cavalry Division, 2nd Cavalry Division, 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th 5th Infantry Divisions,
New Zealand home defense (Freyburg)
1st, 3rd, 4th, 5th Divisions
Subsaharan Africa (Cunningham)
11th and 12th African Infantry Divisions plus 3rd South African Infantry Divisions and assorted smaller garrison formations
Over 2 years of war against the Germans have forced a lot of changes upon the British Army and its offshoots. For the first year severe shortages in equipment and arms along with staggering losses of both in France, Greece and North Africa have been a serious drag on its training, efficiency and expansion. However Lend Lease and massive expansions in production of home have finally ended that problem. Just as importantly, the entry of the United States and Soviet Union into the war has ended the threat (such as it was) of German Invasion of the British Isles, and thus has allowed the release of troops for service overseas and return of a the veteran Indian and ANZAC formations home to provide cadres for expanded armies for India and Australia, and expanded force structure for New Zealand as well. Unfortunately the Japanese invasion of Malaya and Burma comes at a time when the Australians and Indians are least prepared for it, as the bulk of their divisions are not combat ready as the veteran units have been stripped of around 65% of their veteran troops to provide cadres for new divisions and those men have been replaced by barely trained recruits. Equipment too is in short supply as shipping shortages and other priorities have meant that new vehicles and arms have been slow to reach Australia, New Zealand and India due to the long distances from Britain and lack of direct (initially) Lend Lease from North America to those Commonwealth nations.
Much of the British Army is in transit in late 1941 as there is a serious concern that the Soviets will collapse and a German invasion of the Mideast (and possible Turkish intervention with them) is possible.
British Army deployment December 1941
Mideast Command (Brooke)
Western Desert 8th Army (Montgomery)
1st Armored Division* 7th Armored Division* 10th Armored Division*, 1st South African Infantry Division, 2nd South African Infantry Division, 2nd UK Infantry Division, 18th Infantry Division, 70th Infantry Division,
Egypt/Syria/Lebanon/Palestine/Jordan/Iraq 9th Army (Wilson)
1st Infantry Division, 3rd Infantry Division, 4th Infantry Division, 5th Infantry Division, 8th Armored Division* (consists of the worst damaged units from the 1st,7th, and 10th Armored Divisions), 8th Infantry Division (consists of the worst mauled units of the 2nd, 18th and 70th Infantry Divisions)
all four of the infantry divisions arrived between October and the end of December and not all of their heavy weapons or vehicles have arrived yet. For now they are handling security along with an infantry brigade in Cyprus and the 4th New Zealand Infantry Brigade (volunteers from 2nd NZ Division)
En route
15th Infantry Division (Scottish) en route (slated for Iraq)
Home forces
11th Armored Division (preparing for deployment to Mideast), Guards Armored Division (preparing for deployment to Mideast), 7th Infantry Division, 43rd (Wessex) Infantry Division **, 44th (Home Counties) Infantry Division**, 46th Infantry Division, 48th (Midland) Infantry Division**, 49th (West Riding) Infantry Division**, 50th (Northhumbrian) Infantry Division**, 51st (Highland) Infantry Division, 52nd (Lowland) Infantry Division, 53rd (Wessex) Infantry Division**, 78th Infantry Division (preparing for shipment to Middle East).
Plus Malta Brigade Group (essentially a division in size), Gibraltar garrison, and various infantry divisions that are actually training units.
Plus Canadian 1st, 2nd, 3rd Infantry Divisions and the 4th and 5th Canadian Divisions will be deployed when ready
*Refitting and not ready for offensive operations
**A brigade has been stripped from each and is en route or preparing to leave for India to provide British infantry brigades for Indian Divisions in training or forming.
India/Persia/Burma Command (Auchinleck)
Burma
17th Indian Infantry Division*, 1st Burma Infantry Division*
the Japanese have inflicted series losses on all 5 divisions in the opening stages of the campaign and the 11th Indian faced real danger of disintegration and having to be completely reorganized (although that time is unlikely).
Persia Garrison
4th Indian Infantry Division*, 5th Indian Infantry Division*, 6th Indian Infantry Division*, 14th Indian Infantry Division (available for redeployment, awaiting transport), 31st Indian Armored Division (equipped with obsolete vehicles)
en route to India
8th Indian Infantry Division, 10th Indian Infantry Division (moving into strategic reserve in India having recently been transferred from Persia)
Northwest Frontier
7th Indian Infantry Division, 32nd Cavalry Division (formerly armored but lack of tanks sees it being reconverted back to its original role as a horse cavalry division)
forming (training status, have a cadre from the 4th, 5th or 6th Indian Division, plus will gain a brigade each of British troops en route from Britain with the remainder consisting of new recruits. None are combat ready lacking equipment, with the bulk of their troops still learning there jobs and lacking the British component which is en route. None will be ready for a few months for anything except line of communications or security duty).
19Th, 20th, 23rd, 25th, 26th, 34th, 36th Indian Infantry Divisions
43rd Infantry and 44th Armored Division are both at even an earlier stage of formation consisting of a few headquarters staff
Southwest Pacific Command (Wavell)
Malaya
9th Indian Infantry Division, 11th Indian Infantry Division*, 4th Australian Infantry Division*
Rabaul
Lark Force (a reinforced battalion group)
Port Moresby
30th Australian Infantry Brigade
Darwin
19th Australian Brigade Group
en route home
6th, 7th, 9th Australian Imperial Force Divisions (less heavy equipment)
2nd New Zealand Division (less heavy equipment and 1 brigad
training (all Australian)
1st Armored Division, 1st Cavalry Division, 2nd Cavalry Division, 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th 5th Infantry Divisions,
New Zealand home defense (Freyburg)
1st, 3rd, 4th, 5th Divisions
Subsaharan Africa (Cunningham)
11th and 12th African Infantry Divisions plus 3rd South African Infantry Divisions and assorted smaller garrison formations
Maybe stick the 12"/50's into the Arkansas and use the old battlewagen as a twelve gun shore bombardment ship, especially if equipped with autoloaders and an increased magazine size. She wouldn't be fast but she'd at least be able to fire her guns in anger and retribution for Texas when the time comes for it.