those 5 inch /25s did fairly respectively against the torpedo bombers, but had a harder time with the dive bombers. The 3 inch guns were in suppliment to the 5/25 according to what I could divine from Pacific War online
Remember the Texas! The United States in World War II (an alternate history)
- Thread starter galveston bay
- Start date
authors notes: This isn't Pearl Harbor but the effect in a lot of ways is similar. Battleships are proven to be too vulnerable without fighter cover (yet again) as 5 major warships were sunk because of air attack (2 US, 3 German) and while the UBoats acheived 2 mission kills, they are going to be overshadowed by the results of the air battle which in addition to sinking those 5 major warships also achieved mission kills on 4 more.
Which Admiral King and the Japanese will observe closely once they get the results. Although the Japanese seem to take the entire war OTL to digest Pearl Harbor and Midway so no sudden changes in doctrine for them. Everyone is about to add a LOT more AAA to their ships over the next 2 years and the carriers, while not decisive, did produce useful support for the battle fleet. Which is not exactly the same effect as Pearl Harbor.
Hilter nearly scrapped his surface navy twice... but Raeder talked him out of it. Only the embarrassment of scrapping his fancy ships prevents there loss this time, and there are Ore Convoys from Sweden to guard in the Baltic after all.
This will also make the Italians very very nervous about risking their remaining heavy ships...
HItler will claim 3 kills, the Allies will claim 3 kills, and they are reasonable accurate claims based on the information they have. Better than usual ratio of truth versus fiction in a World War 2 naval battle.
Which Admiral King and the Japanese will observe closely once they get the results. Although the Japanese seem to take the entire war OTL to digest Pearl Harbor and Midway so no sudden changes in doctrine for them. Everyone is about to add a LOT more AAA to their ships over the next 2 years and the carriers, while not decisive, did produce useful support for the battle fleet. Which is not exactly the same effect as Pearl Harbor.
Hilter nearly scrapped his surface navy twice... but Raeder talked him out of it. Only the embarrassment of scrapping his fancy ships prevents there loss this time, and there are Ore Convoys from Sweden to guard in the Baltic after all.
This will also make the Italians very very nervous about risking their remaining heavy ships...
HItler will claim 3 kills, the Allies will claim 3 kills, and they are reasonable accurate claims based on the information they have. Better than usual ratio of truth versus fiction in a World War 2 naval battle.
No way for Spain to reclaim Gibraltar. The Brits have placed it close to Kent. Game lost.
Sorry, GB, I couldn't resist...
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Ok seriously, did the Germans invent smart bombs or something? Because how in the hell did high altitude level bombers score that many hits in a maneuvering fleet at sea?!
Ok, you got me there. I honestly forgot about Fritz X. But still, the point stands. For that level of hits from level bombers on a maneuvering fleet at sea, you would need something like a JDAM to be effective. Maybe a LGB if you have enough aircraft to illuminate the targets.
McPherson
Banned
Bear in mind that this is opinion. YMMV and it should.
www.scirp.org
One knows that Wurzburg and Freya had surface search mode? CVs put up a CAP they will be seen in real time?
a. Fulmars instead of Wildcats for CAP?
b. It was common USN practice to use the Dauntless as part of an anti-torpedo plane patrol at low altitude, while saving the limited Buffaloes and Wildcats for dive bombers. The Dauntless was designed to be used that way.
c. What is the sea state in the Bay of Biscay? What are the prevailing winds? This missing data is important as I have rarely seen any flattop in WWII do book flank in the Atlantic without serious pitch and yaw issues for wind and wave are rarely parallel there. For example, the USS Ranger rarely exceeded 25 knots in a speed run into the wind. She tended to banjo.
c. No way to get that 35 TBD and 36 SBD over Cerberus Force after a touchdown and refuel? It would be a good way to retrieve this operation if Ciliax can be hammer and anvilled just off Calais.
d. Beaufighters? Why are they out"? Hudsons for ASW probably need single engine fighter cover (Wildcat?) that is better than a Beaufighter *(Suggest Mosquitos if available if using RAF assets for that mission.). The Beaufighter is AShW oriented. Blenheims? Ugh. LW meat on the table. Spitfires have 90 minutes tops air endurance. They lack reach.
f. Time from Scapa to Dover is 30 hours at 28 knots. Tovey will be out of fuel when he gets there and Ciliax will be past him off the Dutch coast headed for German waters.
g. Dudley Pound is incompetent. He will okay f.. Tovey was not an idiot.
l. Pushover for a Stuka was about 4,000 meters and pull-out was about 1,000 meters (60-70 degree dive). That is .50 cal range at pullout. Worse is that the dive is 30-45 seconds depending on angle of dive. A Standard in a hard turn can in 30 seconds throw the aim point out by 240 meters. The Stuka was not noted for Dauntless like flap and tail control correction. The Stuka is a land warfare bird after all. The Ju-88 is even worse. Those birds have a shallower attack angle, are longer in the dive (60 seconds at about 45 degrees) and far more vulnerable to mid band AAA which is what the US 5/25 was designed to defeat.
m. German aerial torpedoes have a 50% dud rate until improved in 1943.
n. From Pearl Harbor, a Standard yoked up, should be able to take three to four LW type torpedoes and still stay afloat. I account the USS California's loss due to her incompetent captain and damage control officer. Both I presume will be court martialed, as they should have been at Pearl Harbor.
German Würzburg Radar - Douvres - euro-t-guide - France - What to see - D-day - 1
European Tourist Guide - France - Douvres Würzburg Radar Museum: Normandy, D-day, 6th of June 1944, Landing, Sherman tank, Beach, Battleground, Nazi Germany, World War II
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The WW II Saint-Pabu German Radar Camp-2
It is a pleasure to observe that the hope for further studies on the WW II German radar camp of Saint-Pabu (Brittany-FR) formulated in a previous publication has materialized. The Doll’s archive provided new documentation from the RAF Operations Rhubarb permitting to reconstruct the first camp...
One knows that Wurzburg and Freya had surface search mode? CVs put up a CAP they will be seen in real time?
Here are a few klinkers.
a. Fulmars instead of Wildcats for CAP?
b. It was common USN practice to use the Dauntless as part of an anti-torpedo plane patrol at low altitude, while saving the limited Buffaloes and Wildcats for dive bombers. The Dauntless was designed to be used that way.
c. What is the sea state in the Bay of Biscay? What are the prevailing winds? This missing data is important as I have rarely seen any flattop in WWII do book flank in the Atlantic without serious pitch and yaw issues for wind and wave are rarely parallel there. For example, the USS Ranger rarely exceeded 25 knots in a speed run into the wind. She tended to banjo.
c. No way to get that 35 TBD and 36 SBD over Cerberus Force after a touchdown and refuel? It would be a good way to retrieve this operation if Ciliax can be hammer and anvilled just off Calais.
d. Beaufighters? Why are they out"? Hudsons for ASW probably need single engine fighter cover (Wildcat?) that is better than a Beaufighter *(Suggest Mosquitos if available if using RAF assets for that mission.). The Beaufighter is AShW oriented. Blenheims? Ugh. LW meat on the table. Spitfires have 90 minutes tops air endurance. They lack reach.
e. I have yet to see at this stage of the war, a RIKKO and SAG operate together. I am simming in an ATL for such an operation for Operation Merry Christmas You Bastards. There are real world problems with rendezvous times, radio communications, target identification, recon, navigation and just interoperability air to sea that makes the op very iffy. Expect limited success at best. Hit Ciliax with air power, clear the boards and then send in the PT boats and destroyers to kill the cripples. Also, drop mines in front of the Germans!
f. Time from Scapa to Dover is 30 hours at 28 knots. Tovey will be out of fuel when he gets there and Ciliax will be past him off the Dutch coast headed for German waters.
g. Dudley Pound is incompetent. He will okay f.. Tovey was not an idiot.
h. Crete success was based on motionless targets or straight running non-maneuvering ships. The Pacific War showed that maneuvering ships were hard to hit. US dive bomber pilots, the BEST on Earth, were getting 15% PH against aircraft carrier-sized targets in 1942. German torpedo bombers in 1941 were a joke. Any Italians present?
i. Radar. St Nazaire site should detect Standards out to 40 km. Need to also remark that CVs putting aircraft up means 160 km and the Germans should be scrambling anything with wings that they have local. Of course the seacoast gun defenses will be manned and ready.
k. While the Fulmars will be slaughtered, I expect the FAA pilots will RAM if they have to, to defend their charges below. USN pilots would and did. I expect no less from the RN FAA.
l. Pushover for a Stuka was about 4,000 meters and pull-out was about 1,000 meters (60-70 degree dive). That is .50 cal range at pullout. Worse is that the dive is 30-45 seconds depending on angle of dive. A Standard in a hard turn can in 30 seconds throw the aim point out by 240 meters. The Stuka was not noted for Dauntless like flap and tail control correction. The Stuka is a land warfare bird after all. The Ju-88 is even worse. Those birds have a shallower attack angle, are longer in the dive (60 seconds at about 45 degrees) and far more vulnerable to mid band AAA which is what the US 5/25 was designed to defeat.
m. German aerial torpedoes have a 50% dud rate until improved in 1943.
n. From Pearl Harbor, a Standard yoked up, should be able to take three to four LW type torpedoes and still stay afloat. I account the USS California's loss due to her incompetent captain and damage control officer. Both I presume will be court martialed, as they should have been at Pearl Harbor.
o. Note that I have found no incident on WWII record to show such a result against maneuvering ships, barring GUIDED WEAPONS. Even the German Fritz X attacks did not achieve these results.
p. Hmm. RAF tactics are incompetent. Send in a wave of fighters ahead of the torpedo bombers to strafe and suppress the German shipboard AAA (Blenheims?). The Alpha should have been flak suppressors followed by the TBs and with Spitfire top-cover all as a single package. A strike coordinator would have marked the flag or failing that option, would have gone for Gniesenau and swamped her, sunk her and then RTBed for another go at Scharnhorst in a second package. Boy, the allies are incompetent. In the interlude, British PTs and destroyers should have a go.
q. Score one for USS Mississippi.
r. Hmmm. I think 2500 high capacity shells would have been better spent on smashing up the harbor infrastructure. Also the Americans are cycling 14 shells per minute from 18 barrels. That is unusually fast for shore bombardment.
s. Admiral Pye, if that drydock was only shelled, should be court martialed. Drydocks are difficult targets to neutralize by bombs or gunfire. Pearl Harbor lesson learned. There was a reason, the British packed a four stacker to the gunwales with explosives, rammed the drydock gate and blew it all up.
t. Depends. At terminal at 25,000 to 40,000 meters the plunging fire can penetrate 75 mm of deck armor.
u. Musashi and Yamato. Burn down and kaboom. Torpedoes hurried it along, but they were kaput from dive bombing.
v. ??? Most of the sinkings in the Battle of the Philippine Sea and a significant % of Leyte Gulf were submarine kills as mentioned. And there is the I-19 which had the best day, any IJN sub ever had.
w. Kimmel will be cursed for the incompetent fool he is in this action.
x. Have commented on the Crete data.
y. Not according to Pearl Harbor results.
z. I kind of find that math puzzling especially as that is not usual FAA practice. Nor would the USN CTF sail into battle without a F4F and SBD CAP of its own. See my previous comments.
a1. Agreed.
The US Navy at War October-December 1941
Battle of the Atlantic October-December 1941
Nimitz, commanding Atlantic Fleet, is a persuasive and charismatic man, and has an easier time with Roosevelt and the Army than his predecessor King had. By October he has managed to trade the Army Air Force access to long range bombers immediately for the Air Force getting out of the ASW mission,, and that has netted him 30 B17s (plus 9 more transferred back from the British), plus Army Air Force strips the 6th, 43rd and 30th Bomb Groups of their LB30/B24s (nearly 100 in all) for the Navy to use, and by late November sufficient air crew have been trained in their use for some of them to begin patrols in the Caribbean and near Iceland. Another 200 B18 Bolos leave the Army and although initially using borrowed Army crews, can begin local patrols off the Atlantic Coast right way. Another 300 of the Martin Baltimore which had been slated for Lend Lease are transferred to the Navy for ASW work, along with the entire production run planned for the PV2 Harpoon. Most of these aircraft will not be available before 1942, and indeed another 1,000 B24s will join the Navy as well, but most will not show up before late 1942 and early 1943. But by the end of December, over 400 aircraft are available to patrol American coastal and regional waters and provide some support into the Atlantic. The Army even gives the Navy the B18s currently in Hawaii for local patrols. Most of the Army personnel will go to other groups working up, are reequipped with medium bombers as they become available. Hap Arnold is relieved to be able to concentrate on what he thinks is important, the eventual strategic bombing offensive against Germany.
The US Navy has other forces available as well. The US Coast Guard provides 21 cutters (basically equal to a British corvette or sloop depending on size), and 61 submarine chasers (useful for inshore patrol and rescue work), with 6 more cutters commissioning or working up and 30 armed yachts fitting out and working up (which adds another 36 sloop types). Additional yachts are being acquired, and the Coast Guard has plans to lay down additional (and more modern) cutters as well. This provides 82 escort ships for Iceland, the Eastern Sea Frontier plus the already 41 obsolete but useful Wilkes/Clemson class and 56 minesweepers already assigned to those areas (although 4 of the destroyers are usually patrolling the Pacific side of Panama) plus the 4 light cruisers patrolling the Pacific side and 4 additional old destroyers that escort them. By December Nimitz has managed to end attacks on US coastal shipping in the Atlantic and Gulf of Mexico and the Caribbean is only seeing sporadic attacks. After November and the end of Operation Chariot, an additional 9 destroyers joins the Atlantic Fleet from US Forces Europe, and he has all but relegated the old battleships New York and Arkansas to training ships in Chesapeake Bay to free up large numbers of useful experienced personnel. Both of his carriers have been sent to US Navy Europe, along with their escorts, and he has to say good bye to the Yorktown and its escorts in December when it is sent to the West Coast. However that still gives him around 45 destroyers for Atlantic duty of which 30 are usually available (the rest refitting). German Uboats sink only 90 ships (around 500,000 tons total) during the Fall, in part due to poor weather but also because of the distraction of Operation Chariot and improved American defenses.
All of these extra ships and aircraft make the creation of coastal convoys practical and routine by October and losses plummet as targets have been hardened in the Caribbean, Gulf of Mexico and American Atlantic Coast. Once again the convoy shows its value.
On December 1, 1941, Admiral Nimitz is promoted out of his job as commander of Atlantic Fleet and made Chief of Naval Operations and Commander in Chief US Fleet after Admiral Stark is sent to replace Admiral Kimmel in Britain and Admiral Pye is given command of Battle Force Atlantic, which has only 6 battleships (all under repair or refitting) and responsibility for overseeing their modernization. The first thing Nimitz does is request Admiral Thomas Hart as Commander, US Submarine Forces and have him sent to Washington to take charge of this critical arm. The previous commander retires and is placed on the Navy Board.
The Pacific Fleet Fall 1941
Admiral King is gravely alarmed at the weak state of the US Navy in the Pacific but is careful in his criticism and requests. He does manage to get the carrier Yorktown along with Admiral Newton and 4 cruisers and 9 destroyers sent to the Pacific, as well as 18 newly completed, commissioned and worked up destroyers as they become available October-December 1941 (although several arrive in January 1942) and every available fleet oiler. His biggest coup however is the disestablishment of the Asiatic Fleet, and creation of US Naval Forces Far East which is a much smaller in size and authority, and which also falls under his operational command. He immediately orders 23 Fleet submarines to Pearl Harbor as he feels Cavite is hopeless to defend in the event of war, and also orders the CA Houston and 4 light cruisers back to Pearl Harbor, along with their 4 destroyers. Along with them 2 tankers and 2 gunboats (both of those are sent to Samoa), and the remaining 21 S Boat submarines are placed under the command of RAdm Thomas Rivers (who supercedes Captains John Wilkes who is slated to take over Submarine squadron 20). This leaves only the heavy cruiser Chester in the far Pacific, and it is operating with the British out of Singapore. He also ruthlessly strips the Philippines of trained personnel (reducing the gunboat crews to less than half strength or less) as well as the 4th Marine Regiment which he sends to Samoa. Admiral Hart is initially angered by this move but his new job overseeing the entire US Navy Submarine Force is a more than a token and he rapidly dives into the role, making his first visit to Pearl Harbor on December 5, 1941.
Vice Admiral Robert Ghormley is made commander US Naval Forces Far East, and also given the principal job of coordinating between the US Pacific Fleet and British and Dutch naval forces in the Far East. Commander of the 16th Naval District, RAdm Thomas Rockwell remains in tactical command of the forces directly assigned to defend the Philippines (gunboats, minesweepers and PT Boats), while a new commander of the submarines based at Pearl is plucked from his job as naval attache in London and RAdm Charles Lockwood arrives in Pearl Harbor with his boss Admiral Hart on December 5. Hart withholds appointing a new ComSubPac for now, letting the current officer, R Adm Henry English keep his job which is to organize and plan a submarine campaign against Japan when war comes as Hart and King feel certain will be at any moment.
The other problem King has is aircraft. He has only around 40 aircraft available for the Philippines, and only (including newly transferred Army bombers) around 100 for Pearl Harbor to conduct patrols with. No more are likely to be forthcoming at present as the Atlantic Fleet has first call until more units are trained up and equipped. However with 4 carriers he is much more confidant about defending the Hawaiian Islands, Alaska and approaches to Panama and feels reasonably certain he can defend the sea lanes to Australia if war breaks out. He is also promised all of the new fleet carriers and new battleships as they are worked up, and indeed within 14 months he will have 6 carriers and 6 fast battleships, enough to fight the Japanese with and even conduct an offensive. King continues to ruthlessly train his ships and crews who spend weeks at a time at sea (mostly in the waters between Hawaii and California) and conducts a fleet problem in late November near Panama. He is still reviewing the initial report of Operation Chariot when the Japanese launch their massive carrier air strike on Wake Island on December 8, 1941.
Nimitz, commanding Atlantic Fleet, is a persuasive and charismatic man, and has an easier time with Roosevelt and the Army than his predecessor King had. By October he has managed to trade the Army Air Force access to long range bombers immediately for the Air Force getting out of the ASW mission,, and that has netted him 30 B17s (plus 9 more transferred back from the British), plus Army Air Force strips the 6th, 43rd and 30th Bomb Groups of their LB30/B24s (nearly 100 in all) for the Navy to use, and by late November sufficient air crew have been trained in their use for some of them to begin patrols in the Caribbean and near Iceland. Another 200 B18 Bolos leave the Army and although initially using borrowed Army crews, can begin local patrols off the Atlantic Coast right way. Another 300 of the Martin Baltimore which had been slated for Lend Lease are transferred to the Navy for ASW work, along with the entire production run planned for the PV2 Harpoon. Most of these aircraft will not be available before 1942, and indeed another 1,000 B24s will join the Navy as well, but most will not show up before late 1942 and early 1943. But by the end of December, over 400 aircraft are available to patrol American coastal and regional waters and provide some support into the Atlantic. The Army even gives the Navy the B18s currently in Hawaii for local patrols. Most of the Army personnel will go to other groups working up, are reequipped with medium bombers as they become available. Hap Arnold is relieved to be able to concentrate on what he thinks is important, the eventual strategic bombing offensive against Germany.
The US Navy has other forces available as well. The US Coast Guard provides 21 cutters (basically equal to a British corvette or sloop depending on size), and 61 submarine chasers (useful for inshore patrol and rescue work), with 6 more cutters commissioning or working up and 30 armed yachts fitting out and working up (which adds another 36 sloop types). Additional yachts are being acquired, and the Coast Guard has plans to lay down additional (and more modern) cutters as well. This provides 82 escort ships for Iceland, the Eastern Sea Frontier plus the already 41 obsolete but useful Wilkes/Clemson class and 56 minesweepers already assigned to those areas (although 4 of the destroyers are usually patrolling the Pacific side of Panama) plus the 4 light cruisers patrolling the Pacific side and 4 additional old destroyers that escort them. By December Nimitz has managed to end attacks on US coastal shipping in the Atlantic and Gulf of Mexico and the Caribbean is only seeing sporadic attacks. After November and the end of Operation Chariot, an additional 9 destroyers joins the Atlantic Fleet from US Forces Europe, and he has all but relegated the old battleships New York and Arkansas to training ships in Chesapeake Bay to free up large numbers of useful experienced personnel. Both of his carriers have been sent to US Navy Europe, along with their escorts, and he has to say good bye to the Yorktown and its escorts in December when it is sent to the West Coast. However that still gives him around 45 destroyers for Atlantic duty of which 30 are usually available (the rest refitting). German Uboats sink only 90 ships (around 500,000 tons total) during the Fall, in part due to poor weather but also because of the distraction of Operation Chariot and improved American defenses.
All of these extra ships and aircraft make the creation of coastal convoys practical and routine by October and losses plummet as targets have been hardened in the Caribbean, Gulf of Mexico and American Atlantic Coast. Once again the convoy shows its value.
On December 1, 1941, Admiral Nimitz is promoted out of his job as commander of Atlantic Fleet and made Chief of Naval Operations and Commander in Chief US Fleet after Admiral Stark is sent to replace Admiral Kimmel in Britain and Admiral Pye is given command of Battle Force Atlantic, which has only 6 battleships (all under repair or refitting) and responsibility for overseeing their modernization. The first thing Nimitz does is request Admiral Thomas Hart as Commander, US Submarine Forces and have him sent to Washington to take charge of this critical arm. The previous commander retires and is placed on the Navy Board.
The Pacific Fleet Fall 1941
Admiral King is gravely alarmed at the weak state of the US Navy in the Pacific but is careful in his criticism and requests. He does manage to get the carrier Yorktown along with Admiral Newton and 4 cruisers and 9 destroyers sent to the Pacific, as well as 18 newly completed, commissioned and worked up destroyers as they become available October-December 1941 (although several arrive in January 1942) and every available fleet oiler. His biggest coup however is the disestablishment of the Asiatic Fleet, and creation of US Naval Forces Far East which is a much smaller in size and authority, and which also falls under his operational command. He immediately orders 23 Fleet submarines to Pearl Harbor as he feels Cavite is hopeless to defend in the event of war, and also orders the CA Houston and 4 light cruisers back to Pearl Harbor, along with their 4 destroyers. Along with them 2 tankers and 2 gunboats (both of those are sent to Samoa), and the remaining 21 S Boat submarines are placed under the command of RAdm Thomas Rivers (who supercedes Captains John Wilkes who is slated to take over Submarine squadron 20). This leaves only the heavy cruiser Chester in the far Pacific, and it is operating with the British out of Singapore. He also ruthlessly strips the Philippines of trained personnel (reducing the gunboat crews to less than half strength or less) as well as the 4th Marine Regiment which he sends to Samoa. Admiral Hart is initially angered by this move but his new job overseeing the entire US Navy Submarine Force is a more than a token and he rapidly dives into the role, making his first visit to Pearl Harbor on December 5, 1941.
Vice Admiral Robert Ghormley is made commander US Naval Forces Far East, and also given the principal job of coordinating between the US Pacific Fleet and British and Dutch naval forces in the Far East. Commander of the 16th Naval District, RAdm Thomas Rockwell remains in tactical command of the forces directly assigned to defend the Philippines (gunboats, minesweepers and PT Boats), while a new commander of the submarines based at Pearl is plucked from his job as naval attache in London and RAdm Charles Lockwood arrives in Pearl Harbor with his boss Admiral Hart on December 5. Hart withholds appointing a new ComSubPac for now, letting the current officer, R Adm Henry English keep his job which is to organize and plan a submarine campaign against Japan when war comes as Hart and King feel certain will be at any moment.
The other problem King has is aircraft. He has only around 40 aircraft available for the Philippines, and only (including newly transferred Army bombers) around 100 for Pearl Harbor to conduct patrols with. No more are likely to be forthcoming at present as the Atlantic Fleet has first call until more units are trained up and equipped. However with 4 carriers he is much more confidant about defending the Hawaiian Islands, Alaska and approaches to Panama and feels reasonably certain he can defend the sea lanes to Australia if war breaks out. He is also promised all of the new fleet carriers and new battleships as they are worked up, and indeed within 14 months he will have 6 carriers and 6 fast battleships, enough to fight the Japanese with and even conduct an offensive. King continues to ruthlessly train his ships and crews who spend weeks at a time at sea (mostly in the waters between Hawaii and California) and conducts a fleet problem in late November near Panama. He is still reviewing the initial report of Operation Chariot when the Japanese launch their massive carrier air strike on Wake Island on December 8, 1941.
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authors notes: KIng keeps his job as FDR wants someone he trusts in the a Pacific and its important that the CNO can play well with others... so Nimitz gets the job. Hart is kind of authors fiat, but I always felt he got screwed. Which is part why Nimitz gets CNO instead of King. I found a new way to abuse Ghormley Trying this timeline to not forget the US Coast Guard, who I have always had a soft spot for.
With war against Germany underway, Roosevelt has fallen back to War Plan Orange and hopes the Japanese are not going to be foolish. Plus sending the battleships back to the Pacific is no longer an option. Stark takes the fall for that and is sent to the UK, where he will have 4 BB, 2 CV, and some cruisers and destroyers to escort Arctic Convoys with alongside the RN. Stark did well in this role as USN Europe so he keeps his job from OTL.
Yeah, the US is pretty naked in the Far East... but Germany First and that war is already underway.
With war against Germany underway, Roosevelt has fallen back to War Plan Orange and hopes the Japanese are not going to be foolish. Plus sending the battleships back to the Pacific is no longer an option. Stark takes the fall for that and is sent to the UK, where he will have 4 BB, 2 CV, and some cruisers and destroyers to escort Arctic Convoys with alongside the RN. Stark did well in this role as USN Europe so he keeps his job from OTL.
Yeah, the US is pretty naked in the Far East... but Germany First and that war is already underway.
It is a good point about the SBD, although I can also see a decision to send them north to get a better chance at the enemy fleet. The SBD as a heavy fighter lasted until they ran into escorted Kates, that was an expensive lesson.Bear in mind that this is opinion. YMMV and it should.
German Würzburg Radar - Douvres - euro-t-guide - France - What to see - D-day - 1
European Tourist Guide - France - Douvres Würzburg Radar Museum: Normandy, D-day, 6th of June 1944, Landing, Sherman tank, Beach, Battleground, Nazi Germany, World War IIwww.euro-t-guide.com
The WW II Saint-Pabu German Radar Camp-2
It is a pleasure to observe that the hope for further studies on the WW II German radar camp of Saint-Pabu (Brittany-FR) formulated in a previous publication has materialized. The Doll’s archive provided new documentation from the RAF Operations Rhubarb permitting to reconstruct the first camp...
One knows that Wurzburg and Freya had surface search mode? CVs put up a CAP they will be seen in real time?
Here are a few klinkers.
a. Fulmars instead of Wildcats for CAP?
b. It was common USN practice to use the Dauntless as part of an anti-torpedo plane patrol at low altitude, while saving the limited Buffaloes and Wildcats for dive bombers. The Dauntless was designed to be used that way.
c. What is the sea state in the Bay of Biscay? What are the prevailing winds? This missing data is important as I have rarely seen any flattop in WWII do book flank in the Atlantic without serious pitch and yaw issues for wind and wave are rarely parallel there. For example, the USS Ranger rarely exceeded 25 knots in a speed run into the wind. She tended to banjo.
c. No way to get that 35 TBD and 36 SBD over Cerberus Force after a touchdown and refuel? It would be a good way to retrieve this operation if Ciliax can be hammer and anvilled just off Calais.
d. Beaufighters? Why are they out"? Hudsons for ASW probably need single engine fighter cover (Wildcat?) that is better than a Beaufighter *(Suggest Mosquitos if available if using RAF assets for that mission.). The Beaufighter is AShW oriented. Blenheims? Ugh. LW meat on the table. Spitfires have 90 minutes tops air endurance. They lack reach.
e. I have yet to see at this stage of the war, a RIKKO and SAG operate together. I am simming in an ATL for such an operation for Operation Merry Christmas You Bastards. There are real world problems with rendezvous times, radio communications, target identification, recon, navigation and just interoperability air to sea that makes the op very iffy. Expect limited success at best. Hit Ciliax with air power, clear the boards and then send in the PT boats and destroyers to kill the cripples. Also, drop mines in front of the Germans!
f. Time from Scapa to Dover is 30 hours at 28 knots. Tovey will be out of fuel when he gets there and Ciliax will be past him off the Dutch coast headed for German waters.
g. Dudley Pound is incompetent. He will okay f.. Tovey was not an idiot.
h. Crete success was based on motionless targets or straight running non-maneuvering ships. The Pacific War showed that maneuvering ships were hard to hit. US dive bomber pilots, the BEST on Earth, were getting 15% PH against aircraft carrier-sized targets in 1942. German torpedo bombers in 1941 were a joke. Any Italians present?
i. Radar. St Nazaire site should detect Standards out to 40 km. Need to also remark that CVs putting aircraft up means 160 km and the Germans should be scrambling anything with wings that they have local. Of course the seacoast gun defenses will be manned and ready.
k. While the Fulmars will be slaughtered, I expect the FAA pilots will RAM if they have to, to defend their charges below. USN pilots would and did. I expect no less from the RN FAA.
l. Pushover for a Stuka was about 4,000 meters and pull-out was about 1,000 meters (60-70 degree dive). That is .50 cal range at pullout. Worse is that the dive is 30-45 seconds depending on angle of dive. A Standard in a hard turn can in 30 seconds throw the aim point out by 240 meters. The Stuka was not noted for Dauntless like flap and tail control correction. The Stuka is a land warfare bird after all. The Ju-88 is even worse. Those birds have a shallower attack angle, are longer in the dive (60 seconds at about 45 degrees) and far more vulnerable to mid band AAA which is what the US 5/25 was designed to defeat.
m. German aerial torpedoes have a 50% dud rate until improved in 1943.
n. From Pearl Harbor, a Standard yoked up, should be able to take three to four LW type torpedoes and still stay afloat. I account the USS California's loss due to her incompetent captain and damage control officer. Both I presume will be court martialed, as they should have been at Pearl Harbor.
o. Note that I have found no incident on WWII record to show such a result against maneuvering ships, barring GUIDED WEAPONS. Even the German Fritz X attacks did not achieve these results.
p. Hmm. RAF tactics are incompetent. Send in a wave of fighters ahead of the torpedo bombers to strafe and suppress the German shipboard AAA (Blenheims?). The Alpha should have been flak suppressors followed by the TBs and with Spitfire top-cover all as a single package. A strike coordinator would have marked the flag or failing that option, would have gone for Gniesenau and swamped her, sunk her and then RTBed for another go at Scharnhorst in a second package. Boy, the allies are incompetent. In the interlude, British PTs and destroyers should have a go.
q. Score one for USS Mississippi.
r. Hmmm. I think 2500 high capacity shells would have been better spent on smashing up the harbor infrastructure. Also the Americans are cycling 14 shells per minute from 18 barrels. That is unusually fast for shore bombardment.
s. Admiral Pye, if that drydock was only shelled, should be court martialed. Drydocks are difficult targets to neutralize by bombs or gunfire. Pearl Harbor lesson learned. There was a reason, the British packed a four stacker to the gunwales with explosives, rammed the drydock gate and blew it all up.
t. Depends. At terminal at 25,000 to 40,000 meters the plunging fire can penetrate 75 mm of deck armor.
u. Musashi and Yamato. Burn down and kaboom. Torpedoes hurried it along, but they were kaput from dive bombing.
v. ??? Most of the sinkings in the Battle of the Philippine Sea and a significant % of Leyte Gulf were submarine kills as mentioned. And there is the I-19 which had the best day, any IJN sub ever had.
w. Kimmel will be cursed for the incompetent fool he is in this action.
x. Have commented on the Crete data.
y. Not according to Pearl Harbor results.
z. I kind of find that math puzzling especially as that is not usual FAA practice. Nor would the USN CTF sail into battle without a F4F and SBD CAP of its own. See my previous comments.
a1. Agreed.
The airwing of the Wasp was already pretty screwy with 45 fighter (27 F2A and 18 USMC F4F-3), and 36 TBD with no scout or bombing squadrons at all.
Regarding the fighters.. they didn't scatter. My reading of World War II fighter battles is one minute the sky is full of airplanes and shortly after its "where the hell did everyone go!" in effect the fighters engage, they fight but the circumstances of a furball prevent them from aiding the bombers any longer. Luckily the Germans also concentrated on their fight and target fixation neutralized them from beating up the bombers too much. They Allied fighters did their job, they covered the aircraft they were escorting and the only failure was in part to the very communications issues that Calbear and you mentioned. RAF fighters covering a US task force have problems due to communications.Bear in mind that this is opinion. YMMV and it should.
German Würzburg Radar - Douvres - euro-t-guide - France - What to see - D-day - 1
European Tourist Guide - France - Douvres Würzburg Radar Museum: Normandy, D-day, 6th of June 1944, Landing, Sherman tank, Beach, Battleground, Nazi Germany, World War IIwww.euro-t-guide.com
The WW II Saint-Pabu German Radar Camp-2
It is a pleasure to observe that the hope for further studies on the WW II German radar camp of Saint-Pabu (Brittany-FR) formulated in a previous publication has materialized. The Doll’s archive provided new documentation from the RAF Operations Rhubarb permitting to reconstruct the first camp...
One knows that Wurzburg and Freya had surface search mode? CVs put up a CAP they will be seen in real time?
Here are a few klinkers.
a. Fulmars instead of Wildcats for CAP?
b. It was common USN practice to use the Dauntless as part of an anti-torpedo plane patrol at low altitude, while saving the limited Buffaloes and Wildcats for dive bombers. The Dauntless was designed to be used that way.
c. What is the sea state in the Bay of Biscay? What are the prevailing winds? This missing data is important as I have rarely seen any flattop in WWII do book flank in the Atlantic without serious pitch and yaw issues for wind and wave are rarely parallel there. For example, the USS Ranger rarely exceeded 25 knots in a speed run into the wind. She tended to banjo.
c. No way to get that 35 TBD and 36 SBD over Cerberus Force after a touchdown and refuel? It would be a good way to retrieve this operation if Ciliax can be hammer and anvilled just off Calais.
d. Beaufighters? Why are they out"? Hudsons for ASW probably need single engine fighter cover (Wildcat?) that is better than a Beaufighter *(Suggest Mosquitos if available if using RAF assets for that mission.). The Beaufighter is AShW oriented. Blenheims? Ugh. LW meat on the table. Spitfires have 90 minutes tops air endurance. They lack reach.
e. I have yet to see at this stage of the war, a RIKKO and SAG operate together. I am simming in an ATL for such an operation for Operation Merry Christmas You Bastards. There are real world problems with rendezvous times, radio communications, target identification, recon, navigation and just interoperability air to sea that makes the op very iffy. Expect limited success at best. Hit Ciliax with air power, clear the boards and then send in the PT boats and destroyers to kill the cripples. Also, drop mines in front of the Germans!
f. Time from Scapa to Dover is 30 hours at 28 knots. Tovey will be out of fuel when he gets there and Ciliax will be past him off the Dutch coast headed for German waters.
g. Dudley Pound is incompetent. He will okay f.. Tovey was not an idiot.
h. Crete success was based on motionless targets or straight running non-maneuvering ships. The Pacific War showed that maneuvering ships were hard to hit. US dive bomber pilots, the BEST on Earth, were getting 15% PH against aircraft carrier-sized targets in 1942. German torpedo bombers in 1941 were a joke. Any Italians present?
i. Radar. St Nazaire site should detect Standards out to 40 km. Need to also remark that CVs putting aircraft up means 160 km and the Germans should be scrambling anything with wings that they have local. Of course the seacoast gun defenses will be manned and ready.
k. While the Fulmars will be slaughtered, I expect the FAA pilots will RAM if they have to, to defend their charges below. USN pilots would and did. I expect no less from the RN FAA.
l. Pushover for a Stuka was about 4,000 meters and pull-out was about 1,000 meters (60-70 degree dive). That is .50 cal range at pullout. Worse is that the dive is 30-45 seconds depending on angle of dive. A Standard in a hard turn can in 30 seconds throw the aim point out by 240 meters. The Stuka was not noted for Dauntless like flap and tail control correction. The Stuka is a land warfare bird after all. The Ju-88 is even worse. Those birds have a shallower attack angle, are longer in the dive (60 seconds at about 45 degrees) and far more vulnerable to mid band AAA which is what the US 5/25 was designed to defeat.
m. German aerial torpedoes have a 50% dud rate until improved in 1943.
n. From Pearl Harbor, a Standard yoked up, should be able to take three to four LW type torpedoes and still stay afloat. I account the USS California's loss due to her incompetent captain and damage control officer. Both I presume will be court martialed, as they should have been at Pearl Harbor.
o. Note that I have found no incident on WWII record to show such a result against maneuvering ships, barring GUIDED WEAPONS. Even the German Fritz X attacks did not achieve these results.
p. Hmm. RAF tactics are incompetent. Send in a wave of fighters ahead of the torpedo bombers to strafe and suppress the German shipboard AAA (Blenheims?). The Alpha should have been flak suppressors followed by the TBs and with Spitfire top-cover all as a single package. A strike coordinator would have marked the flag or failing that option, would have gone for Gniesenau and swamped her, sunk her and then RTBed for another go at Scharnhorst in a second package. Boy, the allies are incompetent. In the interlude, British PTs and destroyers should have a go.
q. Score one for USS Mississippi.
r. Hmmm. I think 2500 high capacity shells would have been better spent on smashing up the harbor infrastructure. Also the Americans are cycling 14 shells per minute from 18 barrels. That is unusually fast for shore bombardment.
s. Admiral Pye, if that drydock was only shelled, should be court martialed. Drydocks are difficult targets to neutralize by bombs or gunfire. Pearl Harbor lesson learned. There was a reason, the British packed a four stacker to the gunwales with explosives, rammed the drydock gate and blew it all up.
t. Depends. At terminal at 25,000 to 40,000 meters the plunging fire can penetrate 75 mm of deck armor.
u. Musashi and Yamato. Burn down and kaboom. Torpedoes hurried it along, but they were kaput from dive bombing.
v. ??? Most of the sinkings in the Battle of the Philippine Sea and a significant % of Leyte Gulf were submarine kills as mentioned. And there is the I-19 which had the best day, any IJN sub ever had.
w. Kimmel will be cursed for the incompetent fool he is in this action.
x. Have commented on the Crete data.
y. Not according to Pearl Harbor results.
z. I kind of find that math puzzling especially as that is not usual FAA practice. Nor would the USN CTF sail into battle without a F4F and SBD CAP of its own. See my previous comments.
a1. Agreed.
It should be noted that the Vals in the Indian Ocean attacks on 2 fast moving desperately manuevering heavy cruisers got 80% hits. The German pilots here got nothing like that, but are for the most part the very same pilots from Crete (attacking fast moving destroyers as well as a carrier and a pair of battleships) and at Crete they got mission kills on the carrier and both battleships.
It seems possible the German aviation losses might be higher but I got the results I game with (used a modified wargame /board game version of Bismark/Midway...old Avalon Hill games and second checked them with World In Flames which is strategic World War II with excellent naval/air interface combat system).
As to the drydock, likely the Americans are wrong and it is repairable, but it won't be as the Tirpitz will never be coming and thus in the views of the people in TTL, the mission is a success. Losing the Oklahoma costs Pye his chance at CNO, and Stark lost his job because of the damage suffered and Kimmel got himself killed. Publically this is a great albiet costly victory. Roosevelt is privately less enthused of course. Churchill is happy as he didnt lost any ships of importance and half the German surface fleet is gone.
As to the firing rate.. Pye has only 3 hours to do as much damage as he can and then run away. I might be off somewhat in rounds fired, but the Battleships would have shot as fast as they could only slowing to prevent overheating the barrels and because crew exhaustion is a thing.
To be fair, until late war and Kamikaze attacks (and defending with massively powerful AAA), the Standard battleships never experienced any kind of serious attack after Pearl Harbor. At Pearl Harbor only the Nevada was attacked by dive bombers (18 dive bombers got 5 hits) and there she was in confined waters and unable to manuever. but that is a 30% hit rate while the entire US Navy at Pearl Harbor (and a few Army guns) where shooting at them. Speaking of Pearl Harbor, I did use that in part for a guide to likely German losses based on Japanese losses during 2nd Wave (excluding the attacks on the airfields and what American fighters managed).
I did review Freya radar pretty closely. Although by the time the radar gunners picked up Force Y they already new about it from a patrol plane. The Carriers were far enough out that their launches may have been noted but considering what their aircraft were doing, it didnt matter what German gunners in France were preparing for them. The Luftwaffe provided what escorts it could for its complicated mission day and for the most part, until the attack on Force Y (and interference from above) they did their job, just as the Allied escorts did.
Overall not perfect but I feel comfortable with the results and losses based on gaming it out. Sure games are only as good as the designer (which is why I use more than one) but they give me sufficient confidence to go with the results. The details may differ but the overall picture seems right.
that should be 18 TBD and 16 SBD (the Scouting squadron). The VB squadron stayed at home so the fighters could fit.
he got Europe after Pearl Harbor, which is a far greater preventable disaster
that is probably it for today... reviewing what the Japanese will do, what the British will do to shore up Asia, and what the US Army is doing
But Montgomery is going to Singapore and Alexander is going to North Africa has already been determined. Percival gets Burma.
But Montgomery is going to Singapore and Alexander is going to North Africa has already been determined. Percival gets Burma.
Kimmel, in this ATL as well as IOTL makes a handy scapegoat (at least behind closed doors, I'm betting on The Medal for Kimmel publicly, a la Admiral Kidd IOT whose WW II lasted about 10 minutes before the Arizona was blown out from under him). Same for the CO of the California and Oklahoma.
Admiral Kidd's MoH citation.
Kidd was a fine officer, but I've never quite figured out why he and the Arizona's CO Captain Van Valkenburgh were awarded The Medal.
Wow! Chester REALLY got jumped, makes OTL look mild. From a Two Star to CNO/Commander U.S. Fleet.
Ghormley will probably have to be medically out of the the PI. He saw disaster at every turn anyway, now his is hip deep in one, sharing an Island with Doug. Hopefully he can get his teeth dealt with.