Keynes' Cruisers Volume 2
- Thread starter fester
- Start date
- Status
Driftless
Donor
While poking around on the net, I came across this gem by accident: Gene Slover's US Navy's Pages (Japanese Underwater Ordinance)
Will the USAAF get bases in Malaya or Burma, from which B-17 and/or B-24 raids can be launched against Japanese positions in Luzon? Or am I having too optimistic a view of bomber range?
Not with a useful warload plus USAAF would not use their heavies in a tactical manner.... Against doctrine
So, we're not talking Fairmiles in this particular instance, right? Now I have to go look up Camper and Nicholson...
Thinking about Korea...
Right now the Germans are doing better in Russia than OTL, and while when the Allies invade France they may move faster, I don't see a successful invasion in 1943, so you're looking at May/June 1944 like OTL. Stalin is much more interested in gains in Eastern Europe than the Far East - so if it has taken longer and more effort to push the Germans back than OTL, moving forces to the Far East to seize Manchuria and occupy half of Korea is less doable. Especially if Japan throws in the sponge a few months earlier, the USSR may not even get to Korea or the Kuriles, and may in fact never declare war on Japan at all (the deal was 3 months after the end if the war in Europe and they took a little longer than that OTL). If Chiang is doing better and perhaps has his act together a little better, Nationalist troops may be in Manchuria and tell any Russians no thanks, we got it... In any case Mao's victory is not inevitable.
IMHO Korea is never split, the Korean communists only got control because the Soviet Army put them there (like the communists in Eastern Europe). By themselves, none of the communist parties that came to power after WWII with exception of Yugoslavia would have done so without the Red Army.
Using torpedo boats might have a shot at getting to Bataan and also avoiding detection long enough to unload, camouflage could work for a day or two. IMHO its a one way trip because once they get there they don't have enough fuel to leave, I don't see Bataan having enough fuel to top them up for a trip back to anywhere. The Wiki article on the C&N boats (MGB) said they had an endurance of roughly 2,000 nm at 11 kts. The distance from Singapore to Manila is about 1450 nm, so given the fact that for at least part of the run they would be running at high speed, they'll arrive basically dry. If you double their fuel capacity, that will cut down on the stores...
Right now the Germans are doing better in Russia than OTL, and while when the Allies invade France they may move faster, I don't see a successful invasion in 1943, so you're looking at May/June 1944 like OTL. Stalin is much more interested in gains in Eastern Europe than the Far East - so if it has taken longer and more effort to push the Germans back than OTL, moving forces to the Far East to seize Manchuria and occupy half of Korea is less doable. Especially if Japan throws in the sponge a few months earlier, the USSR may not even get to Korea or the Kuriles, and may in fact never declare war on Japan at all (the deal was 3 months after the end if the war in Europe and they took a little longer than that OTL). If Chiang is doing better and perhaps has his act together a little better, Nationalist troops may be in Manchuria and tell any Russians no thanks, we got it... In any case Mao's victory is not inevitable.
IMHO Korea is never split, the Korean communists only got control because the Soviet Army put them there (like the communists in Eastern Europe). By themselves, none of the communist parties that came to power after WWII with exception of Yugoslavia would have done so without the Red Army.
Using torpedo boats might have a shot at getting to Bataan and also avoiding detection long enough to unload, camouflage could work for a day or two. IMHO its a one way trip because once they get there they don't have enough fuel to leave, I don't see Bataan having enough fuel to top them up for a trip back to anywhere. The Wiki article on the C&N boats (MGB) said they had an endurance of roughly 2,000 nm at 11 kts. The distance from Singapore to Manila is about 1450 nm, so given the fact that for at least part of the run they would be running at high speed, they'll arrive basically dry. If you double their fuel capacity, that will cut down on the stores...
For those who missed the cargo MTB discussion in thread 1 Here is a picture,
With Diesel engines 40 tons of supplies at 20knt, with Packard Petrol engines about 30knt.
With Diesel engines 40 tons of supplies at 20knt, with Packard Petrol engines about 30knt.
So you refuel them at sea some distance out from Bataan. And/or refuel them at sea on the way back.
And the oilers will be a high value target for the Japanese Army air force and the Japanese Naval air force. Oilers are scarce and valuable commodities and risking any of them at the half way mark of this transit is likely to be regarded as criminal negligence. Sitting at 750nm from Bataan and sailing at 18 kts for a time to refuel will be extremely dangerous.
RAS is still a new thing and refuelling from anything than an oiler, especially with these MTB conversions is going to be a slow process, which tends to negate for a number of hours the ability to run at 30 kts to Bataan.
The only way oilers would be risked is such a high risk area is if the entire Eastern fleet with all their carriers were included. And that is what the allies are trying to avoid, putting scarce capital ships in harm's way.
Let's face it, Bataan is really a self sustaining POW camp. So long as the Japanese can restrict by mining and other means the resupply to prevent any attempt at a breakout, it really doesn't matter in the larger picture of things. No essential resources that Japan needs, no ability to interfere with the Japanese sea communications back to the home islands. Except of course in the political arena where "Something must be Done" will impact on the next elections.
RAS is still a new thing and refuelling from anything than an oiler, especially with these MTB conversions is going to be a slow process, which tends to negate for a number of hours the ability to run at 30 kts to Bataan.
The only way oilers would be risked is such a high risk area is if the entire Eastern fleet with all their carriers were included. And that is what the allies are trying to avoid, putting scarce capital ships in harm's way.
Let's face it, Bataan is really a self sustaining POW camp. So long as the Japanese can restrict by mining and other means the resupply to prevent any attempt at a breakout, it really doesn't matter in the larger picture of things. No essential resources that Japan needs, no ability to interfere with the Japanese sea communications back to the home islands. Except of course in the political arena where "Something must be Done" will impact on the next elections.
I don't expect it's fun and games for the Japanese besiegers, either. The locals have many hostiles -- Volkman, Fertig, Blackburn, and others, as well as locals like Magsaysay, must be making life interesting for the occupation. The question for Homma, if he hasn't already been sacked, is whether to send bullets to the men in the front line or to the anti-partisan units. Assuming he can get them, well maybe the American torpedoes aren't working.
The continued resistance of this "self sustaining POW camp" is tying up troops and supplies which are not available in New Guinea, in Southeast Asia, in the East Indies, in China. It's been said, time and again (often in reference to plans for an invasion of Hawaii on December 8) that the Japanese were monumentally overstretched as it were, short of transport, short of troops . . . how is it working with so many tied down in the Philippines, never mind the better British performance in Malaya?
The continued resistance of this "self sustaining POW camp" is tying up troops and supplies which are not available in New Guinea, in Southeast Asia, in the East Indies, in China. It's been said, time and again (often in reference to plans for an invasion of Hawaii on December 8) that the Japanese were monumentally overstretched as it were, short of transport, short of troops . . . how is it working with so many tied down in the Philippines, never mind the better British performance in Malaya?
The next relevant election is 23.7 months away. Bataan won't be relevant no matter at that time
GopeHopef by
Hopefully by then Bataan will be overshadowed by the great Allied invasion of Sweden.
Any chance of capturing some of the islands in southern Philippines to get closer to Bataan and running supplies to Batman from there. This might open up an additional front and drain Japanese resources.
Driftless
Donor
You'd need a well planned and hard sell on the idea that the Bataan Boys are the victims of two decades of neglect for military preparedness by isolationists etc. "We couldn't help them because my esteemed colleagues voted against being ready. We got caught with our pants down as a result, and our boys are paying the price"... That sort of thing. Captain Cynic says: whoever voted for what, why, and when is secondary to what you can hang on them now
Story 1649
South of Cambodia Point November 8, 1942
HMS Ashanti, Eskimo, Tartar, and Nubian advanced slowly in the night. Low clouds hindered visual searches but the rotating radar antennas probed the seas with their electronic shouts. As they reached the northwestern edge of the patrol box, they turned to the northeast, given wide berth to a recently reseeded minefield. Look-outs strained their eyes looking for mines and looking for targets.
Aboard the divisional flagship, a short conference was held by the force commander and his trusted flag captain. They had been together for almost a year now and their successes had built upon each other’s trusted competence. A radar operator swore he had good contacts off in the distance 27,000 yards away through the murky night. Soon, the light shutters clanged open and shut as the destroyers increased speed, cleared the decks and changed course slightly.
Eleven minutes later, three out of the four large destroyers had firm radar contacts at 17,000 yards. A modest coastal convoy of three or four merchant ships and a pair of destroyers were showing up on the scope. Soon, the four large destroyers accelerated to combat speeds. They were arrayed in a single line and had cut across the convoy’s path as the range fell to under 8,000 yards. Every gun was tracking on a target. Each destroyer picked its own target, the flagship and her first consort were focused on the Japanese destroyers while the last two ships were already getting ready to slash into the merchantmen.
Sixteen torpedoes entered the water. By now, the radars were honing on their targets and the gun mounts made the slightest adjustments as the line of destroyers had begun to curl around the port flank of the convoy. The range continued to close as the torpedoes spread out through the water. Finally as the four destroyers were closing to within 6,000 yards of the lead escort, surprise was lost as a searchlight snapped open and a white beam poked at the sea in the general area of Nubian.
Before the light could provide a target for the two Japanese escorts, the Royal Navy announced themselves as twenty four guns started to fire. The first minute of rapid fire produced no devastating hits although the gunnery was good as near misses and straddles sent shrapnel up and down the decks of the Japanese ships whose crews were scrambling for action stations. Eskimo then scored a trio of hits whose value was rendered worthless when her target’s back broke from a torpedo detonating yards from her forward magazine. She shifted fire to the sole surviving escort and soon, Yudachi was being smothered by a squall of shells. First her forward twin turret went silent after shells from Nubian demolished the gun house and then her bridge was set afire. Her aft turret scored a few hits against Tartar with little effect.
Ashanti twisted and turned in the water to dodge a wave of torpedoes fired in her general direction even as her guns set first one and then a second coaster on fire. An hour later, the convoy had been destroyed and the four destroyers turned south and headed for air cover at twenty eight knots.
Story 1650
Sittang River, Burma, 10 minutes before dawn November 9, 1942
He caught his breath. He unscrewed his canteen and had a sip of water before offering to share it with the rifleman who was in the same combat scrape as him. The Yorkshireman shook his head as he did not want more water before he had a chance to piss. Their bodies were pressed flat against the ground a few inches below the crest of a body height rise in the flood plain. Other men of the assault company were clustered near them but right now the world that the nineteen year old could touch was the only world that mattered to him. The assault boat was brushing up against his ankle and he knew that he would be one of the first men in the water and one of the first men paddling across the river.
Even as the young man shifted his weight from one hip to the other and enjoying the relief of his heavy pack digging into his other shoulder, the entire universe erupted. This was not a bombardment that a veteran of the Somme, including the regimental sergeant major, would recognize, but it was a bombardment that veterans of the 100 Days such as the Brigade commander would know intimately. Very little had changed except the size of the guns and their range. Thousands of gunners were feeding the hungry maws of hundreds of guns as quickly as they could. Some regiments were firing mainly high explosive to destroy forward positions while other regiments were walking shrapnel rounds to keep Japanese reserves in place. Even more regiments, mainly the older 18 pounder regiments were pouring smoke across the assault zones. Japanese machine guns and mortars took a few minutes to respond but they began to blindly fire into the smoke screens.
Spotters on the west bank noted where the Japanese were firing from. Reserve batteries were soon being directed to smother those positions.
As dawn broke, whistles up and down the line were blown. Officers with Webley pistols began to scramble over the top of the limited cover near the river bank. Behind them, thousands of nineteen and twenty year old riflemen with a smattering of older men with experience and some wisdom carried the assault boats. The nineteen year whose world had collapsed to only that which he could touch was lucky, he was in the boat and paddling within minutes even as mortar shells shredded the men and the rubber boat next to him.
Six battalions were in the first wave. Three landing zones would be targeted and then the pioneers would rig ferries at the most successful landings to bring over the tank brigade to push forward.
Last edited:
Maybe modified PT boats are the way to go. The British Camper and Nicholson boats aren't bad but they're not fast enough to outrun an IJN destroyer. The USN PT boats are faster but smaller with a shorter range. These boats have a draft of less than 4 feet. You could unload them almost anywhere.
The PT boats would have to be modified by removing the torpedo tubes and depth charges. Keep the AA guns of course. Additional fuel tanks will have to be installed to increase the range. Possibly as well as carrying a few 55 gallon drums on the deck at the beginning of the trip so as to top off the fuel tanks along the way and then dump. Could these modified boats manage a 1000 mile trip there and a 1000 miles back carrying 10 to 15 tons of cargo on the way in?
The cargo carrying PT-boats would have their fuel tanks topped off by one or two modified APDs fitted with tanks, fuel pumps and hoses to fuel the PT-boats tied up to them. Not difficult as long as the sea is not too rough. This would occur at locations about 500 miles Northeast of Singapore still under the Eastern edge of the Allied air umbrella. The same ships would wait for the returning PT boats to provide the fuel needed for them to reach Singapore.
There is totally no reason to risk valuable fleet oilers for this job. They are not suited or needed for this and they wouldn't be available anyway. Fueling PT boats is more comparable to fueling aircraft in the amount of fuel pumped and in the arrangement of tanks and filler caps. An APD fitted with tanks, pumps and hoses for fueling the PT boats while they're tied up alongside is adequate.
The PT boats would have to be modified by removing the torpedo tubes and depth charges. Keep the AA guns of course. Additional fuel tanks will have to be installed to increase the range. Possibly as well as carrying a few 55 gallon drums on the deck at the beginning of the trip so as to top off the fuel tanks along the way and then dump. Could these modified boats manage a 1000 mile trip there and a 1000 miles back carrying 10 to 15 tons of cargo on the way in?
The cargo carrying PT-boats would have their fuel tanks topped off by one or two modified APDs fitted with tanks, fuel pumps and hoses to fuel the PT-boats tied up to them. Not difficult as long as the sea is not too rough. This would occur at locations about 500 miles Northeast of Singapore still under the Eastern edge of the Allied air umbrella. The same ships would wait for the returning PT boats to provide the fuel needed for them to reach Singapore.
There is totally no reason to risk valuable fleet oilers for this job. They are not suited or needed for this and they wouldn't be available anyway. Fueling PT boats is more comparable to fueling aircraft in the amount of fuel pumped and in the arrangement of tanks and filler caps. An APD fitted with tanks, pumps and hoses for fueling the PT boats while they're tied up alongside is adequate.
- Status