A Blunted Sickle - Thread II

I think there was a lack of capacity on the main shipping routes between Larne-Stranraer and Belfast -Liverpool. Don't forget that Rolls-Royce had a factory in Larne, Sirocco were manufacturing sub-munitions, Mackies were manufacturing textile machinery, Nestle manufacturing milk powder and a number of the linen mills were manufacturing tropical uniforms and fabric for aircraft manufacture. And the distilleries industrial alcohol. Lots of higher priority stuff being shipped out of Larne and Belfast to Great Britain. Shorts and Harland &Wolff were shipping components, aluminium and steel in but their products tended to be self-delivering at the end of the process.
And de Valera suspected that Britain didn't want to see the Irish economy grow too much or to hold too much British debt. Don't know much about Dublin-Holyhead during WW2 but imagine it would have been hugely more vulnerable to U-boat activity than Larne-Stranraer.
Thanks again. Digging deep into my store of trivia, I think I recall reading that the Irish Shipping line was set up in the late 1930s or 1940s partly to provide the ability to trade without using British-registered ships. Maybe the UK didn't want to risk its own ships on the longer Cork/Rosslare - Fishguard routes. Though these are still much shorter than the trans-Atlantic ones and air cover would be better, Even more so for Dublin-Holyhead.

De Valera was paranoid (with some reason) about Churchill and the UK. The UK expanded its sterling balances (effectively overdrafts at the BofE given the UK by countries in the sterling zone) quite dramatically during WW2. Objectively, an increase in Irish holdings of these wouldn't have been a major additional problem but maybe the UK government felt otherwise.
 
Actually it was a balanced trade in OTL, UK wanted food, Ireland wanted coal. Both had lots of ships not usable for anything but coastal trade so no problem there. Any food not bought by the UK would be down to Irish politics, the Free State probably asking far to much over fair value.
Maybe - possibly it wanted more military equipment than the UK felt able or willing to provide without Ireland joining the war. The US could I think have brokered a deal had it though the matter important, though FDR didn't like or trust De Valera so may have simply ignored Ireland.
 
I take his concerns with a pinch of salt myself but he wasn't totally irrational so I do at least imagine that there would be some capacity for additional egg, butter and bacon supplies. They weren't on ration down South (as a generation of Ulster smugglers could testify!)
 
Sweden alone produced 1,9 million tons of sugar beets 1937, so there's some potential. I am sure Finland produced quite a bit too.
That's worth between 200,000 and 400,000 tonnes of actual sugar - 10-20% of prewar imports. If Sweden had a surplus I'm sure the UK would be happy to buy it, but you're looking at no more than 1 ship a month to deal with it - not a big impact really.

UK might also have increased deliveries from the French colonial Empire since it won't be going to occupied France
What occupied France? The Germans currently occupy about six square feet in Alsace, and even at their peak it was a pretty small fraction of French territory - probably less than in WW1.

Very true but I think it had more to do with the logistical capability in terms of vessel availability and other higher priorities for purchasing and shipping goods. TTL with no U-boat war and Malaysia and Burma still in British hands, these demand restrictions are likely butterflied away. As will be the Bengal famine. Rationing of some goods will exist TTL as per the excellent analysis above. But won't be nearly as severe as OTL.
Italy not being in the war has a huge impact, as does France - that means the UK can stick much more closely to prewar trade routes, and use existing supply chains.
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Notice the importance of the routes through Suez and to the River Plate - both of these remain open ITTL since the U-boat threat is vastly lower, and the British probably don't even run convoys past Freetown or Gibraltar. IOTL the vast majority of that shipping was transferred to the Atlantic convoys and the produce sourced from the US, simply because the losses were too great and too much shipping was needed on the other (much longer) routes. Here, because convoys aren't needed as much and the U-boat threat is vastly lower they aren't forced to do so.

Objectively, an increase in Irish holdings of these wouldn't have been a major additional problem but maybe the UK government felt otherwise.
What did the Irish government think?

I wonder if the products Ireland had a surplus in (milk, butter, bacon and perhaps beef) were simply not as critical in the UK's eyes? Or the UK didn't want to pay for them with goods the Free State wanted? Still seems odd to me.
I take his concerns with a pinch of salt myself but he wasn't totally irrational so I do at least imagine that there would be some capacity for additional egg, butter and bacon supplies. They weren't on ration down South (as a generation of Ulster smugglers could testify!)
Bacon the shortage was 210,000 tonnes, eggs the shortage was 18 million great hundreds of eggs (2.2 billion eggs). Again, Ireland can supply a bit more, which would certainly be appreciated - but the UK's population and hence demand for food was rather large compared to most of the countries being suggested. Holland and Denmark were the major suppliers before the war, but that was largely because they were pioneering what we now know as factory farming - nobody else really had the technology yet.
 
Did the British encourage, discourage, or no action on urban chicken raising during the war?

It was encouraged. You could swap your weekly egg ration for chicken feed which was usually a good trade-off for the consumer, provided they could manage the extra work.
 
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Did the British encourage, discourage, or no action on urban chicken raising during the war?
Strongly encouraged, both ITTL and in OTL. They also had pig clubs as well, doing the same thing for pork/bacon.

It was encouraged. You could swap your weekly egg ration for chicken feed which was usually a good trade-off for the consumer, provided they could manage the extra work.
One small difference from OTL - chicken feed for people keeping domestic chickens was rationed in OTL but is not ITTL thanks to the better import situation. As a result you can expect to see rather more domestic UK egg production than OTL.

I'd never heard of a 'great hundred' before
I had to look it up (it's 120 - ten dozen eggs), but it was apparently the way eggs were measured at the time in the UK. The Germans probably measured it in Hectodozens or some other wacky unit...
 
Hmm, I wonder how quickly the reopened eastern Dutch farms can begin supplying Britain again; on the one hand, it needs some imports and renovation to work as pre-war, but on the other, it could provide a nice filling on all those ships travelling back after dumping military supplies in Rotterdam.
 
Hmm, I wonder how quickly the reopened eastern Dutch farms can begin supplying Britain again; on the one hand, it needs some imports and renovation to work as pre-war, but on the other, it could provide a nice filling on all those ships travelling back after dumping military supplies in Rotterdam.
Realistically probably not until the spring - egg production was still pretty seasonal, so they'd aim to have their hens (which would probably have to be imported, the original ones having long since been eaten) coming into lay in spring of 1942. It may actually be 1943, depending on how quickly they can scale up breeding stock - just shifting around say laying hens from one country to another is a zero-sum game.
 
@ pdf.27 What did the Irish government think? [...regarding acquiring sterling balances...]

I don't know - logically it should have been happy as Ireland was part of the Sterling Area - the £I (punt) was pegged to £ at 1:1 and Bank of England notes were legal currency and widely used in Ireland. So acquiring sterling balances means extra spending power post-war.

But, logic and Irish Nationalism.... especially under De Valera?

I can try to find out from Irish Documentary sources or failing that any academic articles on Ireland in The Emergency I can access. Might take a while before I find time to do the research or succeed. It's not really germane to your TL but it is an interesting question.
 
Realistically probably not until the spring - egg production was still pretty seasonal, so they'd aim to have their hens (which would probably have to be imported, the original ones having long since been eaten) coming into lay in spring of 1942. It may actually be 1943, depending on how quickly they can scale up breeding stock - just shifting around say laying hens from one country to another is a zero-sum game.
Still sounds like it'd be a year ahead of the Danes, rather than as OTL the same year. That's gonna help the Dutch economy post-war, if it hadn't benefitted enough yet from not having the economic heartland occupied (and, presumably, port and airfield facilities kept up to date or expanded).
 
In France they used the grosse, 144 eggs.
Strongly encouraged, both ITTL and in OTL. They also had pig clubs as well, doing the same thing for pork/bacon.


One small difference from OTL - chicken feed for people keeping domestic chickens was rationed in OTL but is not ITTL thanks to the better import situation. As a result you can expect to see rather more domestic UK egg production than OTL.


I had to look it up (it's 120 - ten dozen eggs), but it was apparently the way eggs were measured at the time in the UK. The Germans probably measured it in Hectodozens or some other wacky unit...
 
What occupied France? The Germans currently occupy about six square feet in Alsace, and even at their peak it was a pretty small fraction of French territory - probably less than in WW1
Ah, reading FFO these days, got wildly confused for a moment, apologies
 
That's worth between 200,000 and 400,000 tonnes of actual sugar - 10-20% of prewar imports. If Sweden had a surplus I'm sure the UK would be happy to buy it, but you're looking at no more than 1 ship a month to deal with it - not a big impact really.
The Finnish sugar beet harvest - 962 820 metric tons in 1939 was well below historical average. I highly doubt that there would be any surplus to sell, though - sugar was highly demanded and strictly rationed consumer good, as the civilian population was encouraged to can and preserve all possible sources of vitamin C and other nutrients from all types of available berries and fruits.
 
Churchill was far more upset with De Valera over the return of the Treaty Ports in 1938, without any provision for 'wartime use'. The loss of these bases basically screwed the RN defences for the Western Approaches. Churchill knew it, as he had negotiated the original treaty terms in the 20s.
 
The Finnish sugar beet harvest - 962 820 metric tons in 1939 was well below historical average. I highly doubt that there would be any surplus to sell, though - sugar was highly demanded and strictly rationed consumer good, as the civilian population was encouraged to can and preserve all possible sources of vitamin C and other nutrients from all types of available berries and fruits.

Quite. I am also fairly sure that Finland would need to import some sugar at least to cover domestic consumption, even if ITTL the domestic production of pretty much all foodstuffs is easier than in the same timeframe IOTL, given that a bigger workforce is available for agriculture, etc, when the majority of young men can be engaged in civilian work, not being camping out in Eastern Karelia.
 
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Quite. I am also fairly sure that Finland would need to import some sugar at least to cover domestic consumption, even if ITTL the domestic production of pretty much all foodstuffs is easier than in the same timeframe IOTL, given that a bigger workforce is available for agriculture, etc, when the majority of young men can be engaged in civilian work, not being camping out in Eastern Karelia.

Swedish rations of sugar droppet to its lowest in Autumn 1942, it was then down to 67 grams per person and day (more for those with manual labour, a little less of children), which is quite a lot of sugar, so as a combine, the Union should be fine when it comes to sugar. Picking berries and preserving fruits as jam was strongly encouraged i Sweden as well.

In general, the transit trade, Petsamo and above all Narvik should allow the Union to import whatever food it needs above domestic production, so rations should be more generous than OTL.

OTL potatoes, milk and vegetables were never rationed in Sweden, and I could see the same being the case in Finland TTL (as opposed to OTL), which should allow prople to eat as much as they like, but perhaps not with the variety they would like.
 
OTL potatoes, milk and vegetables were never rationed in Sweden, and I could see the same being the case in Finland TTL (as opposed to OTL), which should allow prople to eat as much as they like, but perhaps not with the variety they would like.

I recall reading from somewhere that in Britain people ate more healthier during the war than in peacetime due to rationing, ie. more vegetables, less fat and meat and were in better physical condition due to more walking and bicycling etc. Was it similar case in Sweden?

(In OTL much of my relatives lived in Tornio, right next to Haparanda during the war and did consider themselves extremely lucky as they could enjoy the material paradise of Sweden during the war...)
 
I recall reading from somewhere that in Britain people ate more healthier during the war than in peacetime due to rationing, ie. more vegetables, less fat and meat and were in better physical condition due to more walking and bicycling etc. Was it similar case in Sweden?

(In OTL much of my relatives lived in Tornio, right next to Haparanda during the war and did consider themselves extremely lucky as they could enjoy the material paradise of Sweden during the war...)

Yeah. There were also health initiatives such as "riksmarschen" ("the realm march") where people were encouraged to go out and walk for exercise.
 
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