With the Crescent Above Us 2.0: An Ottoman Timeline

As always, it's something from the damned Balkans that starts the Great War. It even came with an assassination!

This alternate Great War is a bit more interesting with the Three Emperors Alliance versus Japan/Britain/France. It seems that the TEA is far less loyal to each other, especially with Germany and Russia looking at each other as future enemies but that is replaced by the fact that Britain and France have to face the full might of the German army with no Eastern Front.

Here are a couple of things that I hope will end up being a thing in this war:
  1. America does not enter the Great War.
  2. Bulgaria gets creamed by A-H (or even with Russia).
  3. Russia actually puts up a good fight against Japan, whether it is a winning or losing battle.
  4. The Ottoman Empire gets to do something, even if direct involvement is probably impossible due to geopolitics.
 
Interesting WWI this time around. We got the Dreikaiserbund against an alt-Entente of Britain, Japan and France. Interestingly enough, it's the French who are the least enthusiastic to wage war unlike OTL where revanche was a common plank in French politics. On one hand, Germany isn't forced to fight a two front war due to being notional allies with Russia, but that's also an issue - Russia is a notional ally, far less reliable than the two German states to each other.

The Ottoman Empire will be a wild card. I can't remember if Italy exists TTL; if they do, they're a wild card too.

Will either side manage to poke the sleeping giant known as the United States of America?
 
I'll be interested in seeing how exactly the Entente avoids getting curb-stomped here- maybe Britain relies much more heavily on Indian troops? Prediction for now is an Imperial victory (with the Ottos nicking Bulgaria) followed by a WWII centered around Germany vs Russia
 
next country to join the fray
I wonder what the Italian jackal is going to do?

-On one hand there economy and trade are probably even more controlled by France and Britain in TTL. and they hate the Hapsburgs for historic reasons and what to liberate Italians on there land and prevent there dominance over the Balkans.

-on the other hand the emperors league looking pretty scary. So it might be a better idea in there mind to wage war on the Ottoman Empire for control of Libya, Albania, Cypress, Aegean islands, and maybe parts of mainland Anatolia, Lavant, and Arabia.
As long as Bulgaria loses im good.
Why do you want Bulgaria to loss? Iam not saying they are the good guys but why do you want the other powers to win? (Just curious)
 
Last edited:
Why do you want Bulgaria to loss? Iam not saying they are the good guys but why do you want the other powers to win? (Just curious)
ottomans are not retaking the balkans so im defaulting to states that reflect the local populace identity partly. So serbs, greeks etc be part of their respective nations than the Bulgarian state. Also bulgarians are now doing the ethnic changing tactics. Also Bulgaria had alot of wins. Also still annoyed thessalonkia is lost permantly.
 
Last edited:
The Ottoman Empire gets to do something, even if direct involvement is probably impossible due to geopolitics.
Might be a good idea for them to go to war with a neutral power like Persia over Arabic, Kurdish, and Shia parts of there western border, or Italy over there Tunisia and African Horn colonies.
 
Last edited:
ottomans are not retaking the balkans so im defaulting to states that reflect the local populace identity partly. So serbs, greeks etc be part of their respective nations than the Bulgarian state. Also bulgarians are now doing the ethnic changing tactics. Also Bulgaria had alot of wins. Also still annoyed thessalonkia is lost permantly.
never say never, the Balkan powers right now are in situation where the Balkans are gonna be a charnel house I’m sure. If Austrians curb stomp the Bulgarians your gonna see Serb, Greek, and Romanian armies killing Bulgarians in the territories they consider their own to change the ethnic make up.

If Austria ends up in the same situation like otl with Serbia where it needs help occupying a smaller supposedly weaker enemy expect them to lead the killings and forced deportations along with razing the entire countries infrastructure, and ability to function(can’t have its future client states too industrialized and strong). Or it might end up with Bulgaria besieged and suffering unsustainable attrition.

Bulgaria in otl WW1 suffered one of the highest per capita losses amongst the central powers. 900k men in total called up to serve with 300k casualties including 100k killed. And that’s with Bulgaria not being the focus, it’s certainly the focus now and theirs gonna be a lot of reprisals and punishment talk and action happening when they fall. It’ll certainly be interesting to see Bulgarians trying to escape to the relative safety of the Ottomans or worse some Bulgarian army cut off in Macedonia crossing into Albania like Serbia did in otl. Cause their will be ethnic purges, they happened in otl’s 1878, 1912, 1913, and 1914-1918 so something tells me these ones will be worse. And Britains made it clear Bulgaria can expect nothing but a token support from them, so it’s not gonna be a Salonica expedition like otl. I’d say expect the next 4 years to be American Red Cross in Istanbul talking about the ethnic cleansing’s going on in Bulgaria. Never mind disease, exposure, mass starvation, forced migrations…. It’s not gonna be fun for Bulgaria.

This assumes that the Ottomans are not going to get pulled into European conflicts:
I mean I guess it all depends on how the war is going, when the offer is made, and who exactly can offer the Ottomans the most. And the ’most important one, who the Ottomans trust the most. Remember the Ottomans don’t trust the British anymore and it’s allies don’t inspire confidence nor respect either. Britain has France, Bulgaria, Japan, and maybe Italy.

France is the only impressive ally, but that whole Egypt situation probably left a sore spot, and any Ottoman diplomat can just point to the western front and be like “is that what winning looks like?” And rightfully point out if Bulgaria couldn’t be supported why should the Ottomans expect any better? Never mind why would they join the side to save Bulgaria?

That’s the other thing Bulgaria I imagine is such a sore spot, they made a non-aggression pact but they weren’t friends. Sure the new neighbors suck but realistically fighting the Austrians, Russians, the Germans, the Greeks, the Serbs, and Romanians isn’t an option. Nope better to build fortifications on the two borders they share with this power bloc and guard their neutrality fiercely.
Japans a non-entity cause unless they can pull millions of Russians over to Asia it’s irrelevant, and Italy is a thieving jackal so I’m sure if they side with the entente the Ottomans will throw the next entente envoy into the Bosphorus.

For the Emperor’s Alliance it’s not much better. Germany probably isn’t interested in an Ottoman alliance for this war not unless their losing but if their losing the Ottomans aren’t gonna join. I’m sure the Kaiser in his infinite wisdom will send telegrams to the Sultan talking about how cool Islam is though, and between saying he’d be a “Mohammedan” if he wasn’t Christian is gonna drop a bomb shell like

“Oh yah we’d love to be allies… for the next war against Russia, after all its the Germans destiny to have a colonial empire but also create Mitteleuropa. The Tsar’s and their inferior Slavic nation must be made subservient to the Germans, but we promise you Transcaucasia.”
- signed Kaiser Wilhelm


And I joke but Kaiser Wilhelm wasn’t exactly subtle about his flippant and diplomatically damaging remarks. The 3 Emperors might suffer internally cohesion wise because the Germans and Austrians wary of sharing Europe with Russia and maybe thinking they can weaken it might sabotage their ally. It’s crazy but if Austria doesn’t want to share the Balkans, and Germany believes Russia is the next big threat why help them that much in say Central Asia or Far Asia? It’s their backyard let them handle it.

Austria’s another reason. The Ottomans wouldn’t want a Balkans dominated by Austria and its puppets who eye remaining Ottoman territory with interest. And Russia’s… Russia just no never, not in a million years, They’d have to offer support in the form of armies, supplies, money, and a promise of what either the Caucasuses, North Africa, Middle-East, or the Balkans look like for them to consider allying with the Russians.

Honestly looking at it from an outsiders perspective the Entente while weaker man power wise at least has better cohesion even the nebulous maintain status quo that Britain wants means in actuality defeating Germany and Russia so their not a threat to Naval Supremacy or India again, tall order but it’s relatively simple. France wants Germany defeated and Alsace-Lorraine back a tall order as well but doable, Japan wants Northern China and German colonies. These goals are all simple and more importantly they don’t conflict with each other, in fact they support each other.

The 3 Emperors alliance is one that has conflicting interests a plenty. Germany wants a world empire, and to dominate continental Europe. Austria doesn’t want be a bitch to Germany and be possibly annexed. They want to dominate all of the Balkans, but Russia wants some Balkans too and neither side will want to share. The Serbs, and Greeks have their own ideas too, and in the Serbs case it’s a detriment to Austria. Never mind what Hungary wants which just adds another layer this mess. Germany expects its next war to be with Russia so that’s a thing I imagine is going to create problems when it comes to supporting them against British India.

Also despite its size Germany, Austria-Hungary, Russia, and its Balkan puppets are gonna be blockaded and face food, and fuel shortages so if they don’t win sooner their gonna eventually lose later some quicker than others cause that whole send radicals to destabilize nations bullshits works both ways.

but the clincher that might just the Ottomans to sign on with the Entente would be that after the war the Ottomans get to redraw the Balkans borders. With the only caveat being Bulgaria must exist to at least say 50% it’s previous size aka the same deal Saxony got at the Congress of Vienna 1815. that leaves a lot of wiggle room to turn the clock back to 1896 minus a few lands in Northern Bulgaria which can be used as a buffer with Romania, they can reduce Serbia to a rump state, annex Montenegro, get Bosnia back, and put Greece under their thumb with no ally’s to form a Balkan league with, and than impose severe military restrictions on all of them.
 
Lets do some speculating what deals throughout the war can you think the Franco-british, and three emperors would offer/ court the ottomans to join their side of the war. Im not talking ottomans must join or accept the offers rejected offers eould br interesting to speculate about, but in general sense when offers are made ehat do you think they will be?
 
I feel like historians are going to compare this War to the Franco-Prussian War in how they both showed off the poor state of militaries for older nations in comparison to a younger and rising power.
This is entirely possible. The Hapsburgs didn't exactly distinguish themselves in their last war with the Ottomans, but on the flip side, the Bulgarians don't have the manpower to defeat the Austrians by themselves.
And so Bulgaria proves why it earned the moniker of "Prussia of the Balkans", being a highly militarized state who could take on multiple theoretical peers at the same time.

But has it finally bitten off more than it could chew by letting the Habsburgs in to the conflict? Only time will tell.
Bulgaria in some respects is acting like a 14-year-old provoking an adult man and then screaming "ya fuckin' what mate?" while hoping some other adult comes in to save him quickly.
Rest of Europe : in flame
Switzerland to Ottoman: want some popcorn? Also thanks for the kebab.
Don't forget Toblerone baklava for dessert.
My hope exactly.
This assumes that the Ottomans are not going to get pulled into European conflicts:
Neutrality would serve the Ottomans fairly well (though is likely to be a difficult time nonetheless), but they're in such a central position that they may end up being dragged into the conflict sooner or later. Only time will tell.
As long as Bulgaria loses im good.

Also can ottomans get away and ride themselves of capitulations.
The abolition of capitulations is almost certain if the war begins to drag on, but the military imbalance is such that the "Three Emperors Alliance" may well eke out a quick victory. If so, then that would leave the Russians open to get some pretty big gains from the defenceless Ottomans, assuming the Germans don't come to their rescue.
As always, it's something from the damned Balkans that starts the Great War. It even came with an assassination!

This alternate Great War is a bit more interesting with the Three Emperors Alliance versus Japan/Britain/France. It seems that the TEA is far less loyal to each other, especially with Germany and Russia looking at each other as future enemies but that is replaced by the fact that Britain and France have to face the full might of the German army with no Eastern Front.

Here are a couple of things that I hope will end up being a thing in this war:
  1. America does not enter the Great War.
  2. Bulgaria gets creamed by A-H (or even with Russia).
  3. Russia actually puts up a good fight against Japan, whether it is a winning or losing battle.
  4. The Ottoman Empire gets to do something, even if direct involvement is probably impossible due to geopolitics.
1. Without something along the lines of USW, perhaps the Americans will be less likely to intervene but on the other hand, the Bull Moose is President. My impression of American society itself was that there was little appetite to join the war until the Zimmerman Telegram, however. Perhaps Teddy will support the Entente financially and materially without getting involved.
2. This is actually pretty likely. None of the Entente powers has the resources to spare, and Bulgaria will be outnumbered by roughly 3 to 1 by the Austro-Hungarians, Romanians and the remnants of the Serbian army. These are creaming ratios, even with the advantages of the defence at this time.
3. The Russians actually put up a fairly good fight against the Japanese in the Russo-Japanese War. It seems to me that the Russians were militarily capable of continuing and perhaps even winning the war as Kuropatkin had at least done a good job of keeping his army safe, but obviously, unrest at home put a stop to that. I could be mistaken.
4. Whether the Ottomans do something depends on how long the conflict is and how geographically spread it becomes. They will certainly use the opportunity to shore up their internal position, which is still perilous following the Great Balkan War.
Interesting WWI this time around. We got the Dreikaiserbund against an alt-Entente of Britain, Japan and France. Interestingly enough, it's the French who are the least enthusiastic to wage war unlike OTL where revanche was a common plank in French politics. On one hand, Germany isn't forced to fight a two front war due to being notional allies with Russia, but that's also an issue - Russia is a notional ally, far less reliable than the two German states to each other.

The Ottoman Empire will be a wild card. I can't remember if Italy exists TTL; if they do, they're a wild card too.

Will either side manage to poke the sleeping giant known as the United States of America?
Revanche is still a phenomenon in this France, but the French have less reason to think they are on the cusp of achieving it. They lack the powerful Eastern ally of OTL, for one thing.

The Ottomans and Italians are wild cards, though it should be pointed out that Italy is somewhat more friendly to the Entente, as there has been no Triple Alliance and since Britain and France allowed the Italians to take Tunisia, there is little of the bad blood that characterized Italian/French relations in OTL. At the same time, however, entering the war on a side that is at such a disadvantage does not seem particularly wise either.
I'll be interested in seeing how exactly the Entente avoids getting curb-stomped here- maybe Britain relies much more heavily on Indian troops? Prediction for now is an Imperial victory (with the Ottos nicking Bulgaria) followed by a WWII centered around Germany vs Russia
Tapping into that great well of manpower that is India will not be easy and will have its own consequences, but if Britain can do it, she has a much better chance of winning the war. The Three Emperor's Alliance may well have curb-stomped the Entente before that's even possible though.
I wonder what the Italian jackal is going to do?

-On one hand there economy and trade are probably even more controlled by France and Britain in TTL. and they hate the Hapsburgs for historic reasons and what to liberate Italians on there land and prevent there dominance over the Balkans.

-on the other hand the emperors league looking pretty scary. So it might be a better idea in there mind to wage war on the Ottoman Empire for control of Libya, Albania, Cypress, Aegean islands, and maybe parts of mainland Anatolia, Lavant, and Arabia.

Why do you want Bulgaria to loss? Iam not saying they are the good guys but why do you want the other powers to win? (Just curious)
A concurrent Italian-Ottoman war is actually an interesting possibility. There is actually little the Ottomans could do to stop the Italians seizing places like Libya, Albania and the various islands, but an Italian effort against the mainland is unlikely to be successful. The Ottomans simply lack the naval strength to challenge the Italians away from the mainland.
ottomans are not retaking the balkans so im defaulting to states that reflect the local populace identity partly. So serbs, greeks etc be part of their respective nations than the Bulgarian state. Also bulgarians are now doing the ethnic changing tactics. Also Bulgaria had alot of wins. Also still annoyed thessalonkia is lost permantly.
The problem with much of the new Bulgarian state is not that the Bulgarians are ruling over vast swathes of land that are majority Serb or Greek, but rather that they rule the mixed areas that fell to any of the latter two in OTL. Salonika was plurality Jewish for example, and they prefered the Bulgarians to the Greeks. Macedonia was inhabited largely by people who I suppose we'd be most comfortable calling Bulgarians. Even if we stripped away clearly majority Greek/Serb areas from Bulgaria, you're still left with a larger state than either Greece or Serbia. And I don't see the Ottomans making more than a few limited gains as it is.
Might be a good idea for them to go to war with a neutral power like Persia over Arabic, Kurdish, and Shia parts of there western border, or Italy over there Tunisia and Cape Horn colonies.
Persia is a wildcard in terms of its function in this war, and there is a chance of it being turned into a battleground between the British and Russians, which would be tragic eventually for the Persians and pretty disastrous for the Ottomans. Picking a fight with Italy wouldn't be a good idea either considering the naval imbalance between the two.
never say never, the Balkan powers right now are in situation where the Balkans are gonna be a charnel house I’m sure. If Austrians curb stomp the Bulgarians your gonna see Serb, Greek, and Romanian armies killing Bulgarians in the territories they consider their own to change the ethnic make up.

If Austria ends up in the same situation like otl with Serbia where it needs help occupying a smaller supposedly weaker enemy expect them to lead the killings and forced deportations along with razing the entire countries infrastructure, and ability to function(can’t have its future client states too industrialized and strong). Or it might end up with Bulgaria besieged and suffering unsustainable attrition.

Bulgaria in otl WW1 suffered one of the highest per capita losses amongst the central powers. 900k men in total called up to serve with 300k casualties including 100k killed. And that’s with Bulgaria not being the focus, it’s certainly the focus now and theirs gonna be a lot of reprisals and punishment talk and action happening when they fall. It’ll certainly be interesting to see Bulgarians trying to escape to the relative safety of the Ottomans or worse some Bulgarian army cut off in Macedonia crossing into Albania like Serbia did in otl. Cause their will be ethnic purges, they happened in otl’s 1878, 1912, 1913, and 1914-1918 so something tells me these ones will be worse. And Britains made it clear Bulgaria can expect nothing but a token support from them, so it’s not gonna be a Salonica expedition like otl. I’d say expect the next 4 years to be American Red Cross in Istanbul talking about the ethnic cleansing’s going on in Bulgaria. Never mind disease, exposure, mass starvation, forced migrations…. It’s not gonna be fun for Bulgaria.


I mean I guess it all depends on how the war is going, when the offer is made, and who exactly can offer the Ottomans the most. And the ’most important one, who the Ottomans trust the most. Remember the Ottomans don’t trust the British anymore and it’s allies don’t inspire confidence nor respect either. Britain has France, Bulgaria, Japan, and maybe Italy.

France is the only impressive ally, but that whole Egypt situation probably left a sore spot, and any Ottoman diplomat can just point to the western front and be like “is that what winning looks like?” And rightfully point out if Bulgaria couldn’t be supported why should the Ottomans expect any better? Never mind why would they join the side to save Bulgaria?

That’s the other thing Bulgaria I imagine is such a sore spot, they made a non-aggression pact but they weren’t friends. Sure the new neighbors suck but realistically fighting the Austrians, Russians, the Germans, the Greeks, the Serbs, and Romanians isn’t an option. Nope better to build fortifications on the two borders they share with this power bloc and guard their neutrality fiercely.
Japans a non-entity cause unless they can pull millions of Russians over to Asia it’s irrelevant, and Italy is a thieving jackal so I’m sure if they side with the entente the Ottomans will throw the next entente envoy into the Bosphorus.

For the Emperor’s Alliance it’s not much better. Germany probably isn’t interested in an Ottoman alliance for this war not unless their losing but if their losing the Ottomans aren’t gonna join. I’m sure the Kaiser in his infinite wisdom will send telegrams to the Sultan talking about how cool Islam is though, and between saying he’d be a “Mohammedan” if he wasn’t Christian is gonna drop a bomb shell like

“Oh yah we’d love to be allies… for the next war against Russia, after all its the Germans destiny to have a colonial empire but also create Mitteleuropa. The Tsar’s and their inferior Slavic nation must be made subservient to the Germans, but we promise you Transcaucasia.”
- signed Kaiser Wilhelm


And I joke but Kaiser Wilhelm wasn’t exactly subtle about his flippant and diplomatically damaging remarks. The 3 Emperors might suffer internally cohesion wise because the Germans and Austrians wary of sharing Europe with Russia and maybe thinking they can weaken it might sabotage their ally. It’s crazy but if Austria doesn’t want to share the Balkans, and Germany believes Russia is the next big threat why help them that much in say Central Asia or Far Asia? It’s their backyard let them handle it.

Austria’s another reason. The Ottomans wouldn’t want a Balkans dominated by Austria and its puppets who eye remaining Ottoman territory with interest. And Russia’s… Russia just no never, not in a million years, They’d have to offer support in the form of armies, supplies, money, and a promise of what either the Caucasuses, North Africa, Middle-East, or the Balkans look like for them to consider allying with the Russians.

Honestly looking at it from an outsiders perspective the Entente while weaker man power wise at least has better cohesion even the nebulous maintain status quo that Britain wants means in actuality defeating Germany and Russia so their not a threat to Naval Supremacy or India again, tall order but it’s relatively simple. France wants Germany defeated and Alsace-Lorraine back a tall order as well but doable, Japan wants Northern China and German colonies. These goals are all simple and more importantly they don’t conflict with each other, in fact they support each other.

The 3 Emperors alliance is one that has conflicting interests a plenty. Germany wants a world empire, and to dominate continental Europe. Austria doesn’t want be a bitch to Germany and be possibly annexed. They want to dominate all of the Balkans, but Russia wants some Balkans too and neither side will want to share. The Serbs, and Greeks have their own ideas too, and in the Serbs case it’s a detriment to Austria. Never mind what Hungary wants which just adds another layer this mess. Germany expects its next war to be with Russia so that’s a thing I imagine is going to create problems when it comes to supporting them against British India.

Also despite its size Germany, Austria-Hungary, Russia, and its Balkan puppets are gonna be blockaded and face food, and fuel shortages so if they don’t win sooner their gonna eventually lose later some quicker than others cause that whole send radicals to destabilize nations bullshits works both ways.

but the clincher that might just the Ottomans to sign on with the Entente would be that after the war the Ottomans get to redraw the Balkans borders. With the only caveat being Bulgaria must exist to at least say 50% it’s previous size aka the same deal Saxony got at the Congress of Vienna 1815. that leaves a lot of wiggle room to turn the clock back to 1896 minus a few lands in Northern Bulgaria which can be used as a buffer with Romania, they can reduce Serbia to a rump state, annex Montenegro, get Bosnia back, and put Greece under their thumb with no ally’s to form a Balkan league with, and than impose severe military restrictions on all of them.
There's a lot of very well-made points to think about here.

Bulgaria's position is certainly a terrible one here. Perhaps the closest thing we have to model a potential fate of the country is Serbia in OTL's WW1. Even though the Serbs were on the winning side, Serbia suffered terribly from the occupation as well as related tragedies such as the typhus epidemic. Altogether some estimates suggest that as much of a quarter of Serbia's pre-war population died, which is nothing less than a horrific level of suffering. Although Serbia achieved the dream of some Pan-Slavists at the end of the war with the creation of a Yugoslav State, ultimately it was something of a poisoned chalace and could only be truly unified temporarily by a Croat. But that's all in some alternate future. Even if the Entente manages to triumph against the odds and Bulgaria is on the winning side, Bulgaria will have been battered and devastated by the war.

As for what could convince the Ottomans to join the war, you're correct that there's something of a trust deficit between the Ottomans and both prospective sides. Abdulhamid was a careful operator when it came to foreign policy, and only risked armed conflict in a few circumstances. Abdulhamid will likely only commit when one of the sides looks like it is close to victory (think Mussolini in OTL's WW2, a very forboding example), and that's assuming that what he can gain is better than the benefits of staying neutral in what is sure to be humanity's most destructive war since the Mongol Conquests.

The benefits look to be better if they side with the Three Emperor's Alliance. Egypt may well be the crown jewel of any offer here, but it could also include Britain's possessions in Arabia, and possibly Tunisia were Italy to ally with the Entente. Whether the Ottomans trust a side that has the Russians on it is another question entirely though. The Ottomans may prove to be a tempting ally for the Three Emperors too, providing them with the offensive capability in critical areas such as the Suez Canal to really put the squeeze on the Entente outside of Europe.

The Entente for their side can only really offer territory in the Caucasus, which may be appetising to certain pan-Turkic types in the empire, but siding with Italy were Italy to join the Entente would also be pretty unpalatable for the Ottomans.
I don't know Montenegro joined the war, did they?

I think the the best Option the ottomans can hope for in Bosnia is to place a member of House of Osman on the throne of an independent Islamic Kingdom of Bosnia. (also a good idea in Albania)
Montenegro are still neutral, wisely enough. Nicholas I has too little to gain and too much to risk by joining the war. An independent Bosnia with links to the empire might be quite an interesting possibility for the Ottomans.
Lets do some speculating what deals throughout the war can you think the Franco-british, and three emperors would offer/ court the ottomans to join their side of the war. Im not talking ottomans must join or accept the offers rejected offers eould br interesting to speculate about, but in general sense when offers are made ehat do you think they will be?
I too would like to see what kind of offers you guys think both sides may have.
 
A concurrent Italian-Ottoman war is actually an interesting possibility. There is actually little the Ottomans could do to stop the Italians seizing places like Libya, Albania and the various islands, but an Italian effort against the mainland is unlikely to be successful. The Ottomans simply lack the naval strength to challenge the Italians away from the mainland.

Picking a fight with Italy wouldn't be a good idea either considering the naval imbalance between the two.
Italian neutrality is impossible, they are just to ambitious for there own good and honesty both sides are going to promise Italy land from there enemy’s and the neutral ottomans to join there side.

So the sultan better hope Italy joins the entente and ends up too exhausted fighting Austria to try for a war with the empire. because if Italy joins the TEA they WILL end up partition unless the ottomans also join the TEA and the Germans tell Rome, Moscow, and Athens to shove there ambition’s for ottomans lands.
 
The Entente for their side can only really offer territory in the Caucasus, which may be appetising to certain pan-Turkic types in the empire, but siding with Italy were Italy to join the Entente would also be pretty unpalatable for the Ottomans.
I mean the Entente could offer more if they felt it was necessary, if Italy joined the Entente and things aren’t going swimmingly for them than Britain and France could offer Tunisia up as compensation if the Ottomans joined, and took the pressure off Italy, and they could just not tell Italy until after the war… it’s not ideal but certainly not the first time Italy got screwed out of things it wanted.

But yah if Bulgaria ends up looking more like a slaughter house than nation state the Allies might just decide that Bulgaria existing in some form is reward enough. This is why I brought up Saxony, originally the Prussians were gonna take it all but Austria wanting to be seen as the defender of small German states in the confederation wanted it to exist. Losing 50% of its territory was deemed acceptable by them as long as Saxony was still independent, and that might just be what the Allie’s decide.

That a Bulgaria that’s still independent even if it had to give up Northern Thrace along with Sofia’s southern provinces around Blagoevgrad is still maintaining the letter of the agreement if not the spirit, but still it’s their own fault! After all if Bulgaria had just picked a king, and not played with a dictator for 16 years this all could’ve been avoided. Is what I imagine some British and French politicians would think, besides if they need to give Bulgaria some prize and compensate for territory given to the Turks they can just take it from Serbia, and Romania!

I’m sure this won’t cause problems in the future! The most immediate one being probably the mass deportation of minorities from the newly rebuilt Ottoman Balkans if this idea came to fruition.
 
The Balkan Front 1912
Roger Evans; A Descent into Hell - A History of The World War: Penguin Publishing

The Hapsburg's shame - The Balkan Front in 1912

When Austria-Hungary declared war on Bulgaria on the 10th of September, she seemingly had every reason to be confident of a quick and easy victory. Most crucially, she possessed an enormous numerical advantage over the Bulgarians, with Bulgaria’s respectable (for a secondary power) 700,000-man army dwarfed by Austria-Hungary’s fully mobilized strength of 2 million. Even Ivan Fichev, Bulgaria’s regent, recognized that “in the long run, we shall be drowned in a sea of Hapsburg bodies”. Austro-Hungarian chief of general staff Conrad von Hötzendorf had hoped for a war such as this, where Austria-Hungary was given a relatively free hand to prosecute a war against an enemy that he was confident of defeating with relative ease. Alone Austria-Hungary possessed a vast numerical superiority, but she also possessed allies in the Balkans in Serbia and Romania, the former of which were ready to subordinate what was left of their battered army to Hapsburg control. The time had come, as Conrad von Hötzendorf put it, to “beat the rascally Bulgarians into submission, and establish once and for all our position as the only Balkan power”. This confidence was shared by much of the upper brass of Austria-Hungary’s military and civilian establishment.[1]

The exuberant mood in the Austro-Hungarian high command would not last, however, as the weaknesses of the empire would soon become all too evident. A critical weakness of the Austro-Hungarian army was the sub-par railway system of the empire, which was poorly organized. Conrad’s pre-war plans called for a speedy mobilization which would swiftly deploy over a million men on the border of any enemy nation within weeks of mobilization. The harsh reality soon confronted the Hapsburg army, as the trains requisitioned by the army trundled along single-track lines at low speed. Czech nationalist politician Tomáš Masaryk ridiculed the slow pace of mobilization, claiming in parliament that he had seen a young boy on a bicycle outpacing a train carrying soldiers to the front. The poor planning of the railway mobilization was often compounded by the opposition to mobilization, which was keenly felt among the Slavs of the empire. In Bohemia, women often stood in front of trains carrying their husbands and sons off to war. Romanian soldiers proved so unreliable and liable to desert that von Hötzendorf wondered if it would be worthwhile mobilizing them at all.[2] Austro-Hungarian officers noted the poor physical state of the army and bemoaned that the factory workers and city boys in the army were made of poor stuff compared to the hardier peasant soldiers.

By contrast, Bulgaria’s army had already been mobilized since the beginning of August, and following her defeat of Greece, reinforcements were already arriving in Serbia to try and occupy the whole of the country before Austro-Hungarian forces could come to the aid of her Serbian client. Upon the Austro-Hungarian declaration of war, she held a local superiority in Serbia, and Bulgaria’s commanders were determined to make the most of this superiority while they still possessed it. While the infrastructure in Bulgaria was worse than that of Austria-Hungary, what railroads she possessed had been used effectively to mobilize and move troops from one front to another earlier in the war with the Balkan League.

800px-Bulgarische_Soldaten.jpg

Although poorly clothed and equipped compared to the Austro-Hungarian troops who would soon face them, the Bulgarians nevertheless showed their tenacity in combat

Bulgarian forces pushed up the Morava Valley of Serbia, pushing back the demoralized Serbian forces as they had done with the Greeks in Thessaly. The efficiency of the Bulgarian army was noted by observers, most happily by the Germans who had adopted a similar artillery-based doctrine. Bulgarian forces were able to coordinate particularly well between different branches of the army, and the modern French 75mm guns used by the Bulgarians proved to be particularly useful at saturating concentrated enemy formations with fire, breaking them up and inflicting grievous casualties. European general staffs excitedly noted that Bulgarian success proved that the offensive was still the best way to win a war, though few noticed the inability of the Bulgarians to hit Serbians who sheltered behind elevated ground. By the 21st of September, the Serbian government agreed to abandon Belgrade and cross over the Danube to Austrian territory, hoping to conserve their strength for a later pushback across the river. Bulgarian troops occupied Belgrade on the 23rd of September, finding it largely devoid of opposition. Had the conflict remained limited to the Balkan League and Bulgaria, it would have represented a tremendous victory for the Bulgarians. Considering the escalation of the conflict, however, all it meant was that the Bulgarians had some breathing room to prepare for the coming storm.

Austria-Hungary’s first offensive against Bulgaria could scarcely be described as a storm, however. Von Hötzendorf’s initial plan had called for the Austro-Hungarian army to build up its strength along the Danube and Sava rivers before pushing into Serbia once the Austro-Hungarian army was sufficiently strong to overwhelm the Bulgarians. Bulgarian success in extinguishing resistance within Serbia made the Austro-Hungarian political establishment nervous, and it was soon decided by von Hötzendorf that offensive operations should be undertaken as soon as possible to seize the initiative from Bulgaria. For their part, the Bulgarians had deployed much of their strength to Serbia, and now had three armies with a combined strength of around 450,000 men occupying the country. The Bulgarian army had attempted to treat the civilian population of the country leniently, stressing to its troops that as fellow South Slavs, the Serbian civilians were to be treated “as their own countrymen”. While dozens of examples of murders and looting took place, the Bulgarian military authorities undertook measures to punish the Bulgarian troops involved.[3] The atrocities which did take place found their way quickly onto the newspaper pages of Austria-Hungary, in which journalists exhorted the authorities to punish the “brutal Bulgarians” as soon as possible and liberate Serbia.

These atrocities only increased the pressure upon the Austro-Hungarian army to respond, and Von Hötzendorf launched his offensive into Serbia on the 3rd of October. After only a few hours of fighting, it quickly became apparent to the Austro-Hungarians how poorly prepared for a modern war they truly were. Austro-Hungarian soldiers attempted to storm across the Drina and Sava rivers but were met not only by storms of rifle fire coming from concealed Bulgarian positions but also from Bulgarian artillery. One Honvéd officer described, “even on the far side of the river, our soldiers withered under a hail of bullets from the other side of the river. We scrambled for cover and looked in vain for the muzzle flashes coming from our adversaries”. Austro-Hungarian troops had been told that they would merely need to charge at the under-supplied and ragged Bulgarian forces, and they would flee, but instead, they were confronted with the strength of modern defensive firepower. Many of the Austro-Hungarian troops were city boys, used to the relatively comfortable life of the city rather than the privations of warfare. General Alfred Redl reported to his superiors that, “amongst the soldiers, only the peasants are worth anything as soldiers. The clerks and factory workers are dead weight and serve as nothing more than target practice for our soldiers”.[4] The Bulgarian army, by contrast, which had recruited almost entirely from its vast peasant population, ensured that many of its soldiers were hardened, strong and not averse to digging, which would prove to be a critical skill in the coming months.

Despite the Austrian shortcomings, by the 5th of October, Redl’s 1st Army had established bridgeheads over the Sava, and he reinforced his position before continuing onward. The Austrian 2nd and 3rd armies were similarly making progress, and by the 10th of October, the Austro-Hungarian armies were beginning to make progress in Serbia. It was the turn of the Bulgarians to fall back, but they did so in relatively good order, losing little in the way of heavy equipment such as artillery. While von Hötzendorf described a great victory in the making in his reports to Emperor Franz Josef, other Austro-Hungarian commanders worried about the lack of prisoners or even enemy corpses that were recovered. Though the Austro-Hungarian armies were taking ground, there were relatively few engagements with the Bulgarians, and these were usually holding actions or ambushes on the part of the Bulgarians, wanting to extract a price in blood for the ground that they were giving up. On the 20th of October, the same day that Vienna newspapers cheerfully repeated the army’s fanciful claims that over a hundred-thousand Bulgarians had been killed, wounded, or captured, the Bulgarians launched their counter-offensive.

Ivan Kolev’s 2st Bulgarian Army struck back at the advancing Hapsburg forces near Aranđelovac on the morning of the 20th, opening with an artillery barrage that stunned the unprepared Hungarians on the Austro-Hungarian side. Within a few hours, the Bulgarian forces had already routed Austro-Hungarian enemies in the area. This defeat threatened to snowball into a disaster of epic proportions, as the Bulgarian 2nd army threatened to split Austro-Hungarian forces within Serbia, leaving the Austro-Hungarian 1st Army isolated and at serious risk of being encircled. Von Hötzendorf’s gamble to attack before his forces were sufficiently prepared had now failed. He began to sink into apathetic depression, and it was left largely to General Alfred Redl to coordinate his fellow commanders into pulling back to a fallback line, hoping to maintain a foothold on the Serbian side of the Drina and Sava rivers to facilitate a future offensive back into Serbia. This task he managed to achieve, but it did little to salve the demoralizing blow that the Bulgarians had inflicted on the Austro-Hungarians.

Redl_Alfred.jpg

Redl's competence would not be met with a equal reward

The Bulgarians had inflicted a stinging defeat on the Austro-Hungarian forces, forcing them back and severely impacting their morale, but this looked likely to be the high point of Bulgarian success. Although they had inflicted heavy casualties on the Austro-Hungarian forces, their own forces were exhausted, running out of ammunition and increasingly struggling to find reinforcements to fill the gaps left by those killed or wounded. Hard pressed on their own fronts, the British and French had little in the way of materiel to send to Bulgaria, and her own minute war production capacity was totally incapable of fulfilling the demands of her army.

Conrad von Hötzendorf’s failure in Serbia would come with consequences for his career. Kaiser Franz Josef had been incensed at what he saw as Hötzendorf’s dishonesty in his reports about the situation at the front. It was here that the Byzantine politics of the Austro-Hungarian army worked against it. The court had increasingly come to see General Alfred Redl as a suitable replacement for Conrad von Hötzendorf. As this possibility began to look increasingly likely in November, Hötzendorf used his trump card. Beginning on the 18th of November, a series of newspaper exposes were published which identified Redl as a notorious homosexual. He was described as a profligate spender, often seen accosting young men near Prater Park. Redl’s competence in command was insufficient to overcome the revulsion amongst the Austro-Hungarian establishment, and not only were his dreams of promotion dashed but he was replaced with the incompetent pencil-pushed Oskar Potiorek. What would come to be known as the “Redl Affair” would come to represent to many in the empire the moral decay of the empire, though even at this point there were some who believed that homosexual or not, Redl should have at least been given a chance to serve.[5]

[1] – This of course mirrors the confidence that the Austro-Hungarians had in defeating the Serbians in 1914 in OTL. Of course, despite numerical inferiority, the Austro-Hungarians of our time launched three fruitless offensives against Serbia while their armies in Galicia were annihilated. At least they don’t have a Galicia front here.
[2] – Considering the position of Romanians in Hungary, I cannot say I blame them.
[3] – This of course could be a point of controversy in TTL depending on the outcome of the war. Some atrocities in history receive more attention than others.
[4] – Huh, Redl got named dropped again, I bet nothing bad happens to him… though I guess you already know that if you made it this far.
[5] – Earlier gay rights movement in Austria-Hungary confirmed. Or maybe not.

* * * * * *

Author's notes - Austria-Hungary did about as well in 1912 in TTL as she did in 1914 in our own timeline. Don't think she's down for the count yet though. After all, she only has Bulgaria to defeat and even if the Italians were to join the war, they would be unlikely to present much of a threat to the Austro-Hungarian Empire. If she can avoid internal collapse, Austria-Hungary may still do quite well out of this war.
 
Last edited:
Yeah, one thing to note that for all of the shooting itself in the foot Austria-Hungary did, it still managed to survive fighting a three-front war for four years.

Problem number one is having a general who's better at politics than actual military stuff in Hotzendorf to eff things up, especially when he gets to throw the one somewhat competent leader A-H has under the bus.
 
Austria-Hungary seemingly had an overwhelming advantage against the Bulgarians, but their slow mobilization and lack of coordination blunted any sort of offensive they could muster against their enemy. They are extremely lucky that Bulgaria is going to struggle in keeping up with this kind of pressure as they are already exhausted from taking over the majority of Serbia. Without any help from Britain or France and with their enemies around them, it is only a matter of time before Bulgaria is going to capitulate.

Still, it's humiliating that Austria-Hungary is defeated by a lowly Balkan state like Bulgaria, and even with their victory, I doubt that stain is going to go away in the post-war years.

[5] – Earlier gay rights movement in Austria-Hungary confirmed. Or maybe not.
Redl is probably going to survive ITTL, mainly because he isn't going to work for the enemy now that he is already outed. What that means for the gay rights movement is uncertain, but it does exist, especially in Germany. Makes me think that he might move there since Austria-Hungary has been particularly unwelcome to him.

I do think there will be a narrative by queer/modern historians that if Redl continued to lead the Austro-Hungarian Army, then he would've achieved a quicker victory due to his competence and awareness of the situation compared to his contemporaries.
 
Austria-Hungary seemingly had an overwhelming advantage against the Bulgarians, but their slow mobilization and lack of coordination blunted any sort of offensive they could muster against their enemy. They are extremely lucky that Bulgaria is going to struggle in keeping up with this kind of pressure as they are already exhausted from taking over the majority of Serbia. Without any help from Britain or France and with their enemies around them, it is only a matter of time before Bulgaria is going to capitulate.

Still, it's humiliating that Austria-Hungary is defeated by a lowly Balkan state like Bulgaria, and even with their victory, I doubt that stain is going to go away in the post-war years.
It's also reflective of facts on the ground - Bulgaria spent a lot of time militarizing, even earning the "Prussia of the Balkans" moniker, while Austria-Hungary wasn't involved in a major war since the German and Italian unifications almost a half century prior. To be fair, the Habsburg strength was rarely in force of arms - it was typically diplomacy where they leveraged their power.
 
It's also reflective of facts on the ground - Bulgaria spent a lot of time militarizing, even earning the "Prussia of the Balkans" moniker, while Austria-Hungary wasn't involved in a major war since the German and Italian unifications almost a half century prior. To be fair, the Habsburg strength was rarely in force of arms - it was typically diplomacy where they leveraged their power.
I would not be surprised if Italy tried to enter the war as a result of Austria-Hungary's perceived weakness. They'd be able to hold them off, but it would give Bulgaria some more breathing room.
 
I would not be surprised if Italy tried to enter the war as a result of Austria-Hungary's perceived weakness. They'd be able to hold them off, but it would give Bulgaria some more breathing room.
Wasn't A-H's underperformance in Serbia combined with the Entente offer being more attractive the cause for Italy to jump ship with the Treaty of London? At least A-H doesn't have to worry about a Russian front... for now.
 
Wasn't A-H's underperformance in Serbia combined with the Entente offer being more attractive the cause for Italy to jump ship with the Treaty of London? At least A-H doesn't have to worry about a Russian front... for now.
Probably, though Italy's entry into ITTL's WWI is still not guaranteed, especially with no Russia to back them up. Heck, an ITTL Italy that stays out of the war could end up being far more stable and prosperous than its OTL counterpart (and without the fascism), which might be more interesting in the long run.
 
Bulgaria did remarkably well for a power that probably expended most of their shell reserves against Greece and Serbia and was fighting at the end of its logistical tether in Serbia-proper. Idk, would be more believable if it happened further south to give the Bulgarians better supply lines and more time to prepare/for Conrad to overextend.
 
Top