Zeppelin had a very low sortie rate as it used a pneumatic catapult which took ages to cycle.
WI Tirpitz sortied with Bismarck 1941?
- Thread starter starman
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Zeppelin had a very low sortie rate as it used a pneumatic catapult which took ages to cycle.
Deleted member 2186
This might explain something, it comes from kbismarck.com article called OPERATION RHEINÜBUNG: Hypothetical Scenarios
The battleship Tirpitz had been commissioned on February 1941, and was not ready for combat operations in the spring of 1941. On the other hand, it is interesting to note that the British battleship Prince of Wales had been commissioned in late March 1941, and spent only a couple of weeks of trials when she engaged Bismarck in the Denmark Strait. This ship was far from being 100% battle ready and even had dockyard workers on board. Nevertheless, she managed to score three hits on Bismarck. So, it is quite reasonable to believe that Tirpitz would have added a far greater punch than Prinz Eugen, whether she was fully ready for combat or not. Moreover, Bismarck and Tirpitz would have formed a more homogeneous pair such as Scharnhorst and Gneisenau, and, if one Bismarck caused such a fuss, it is not hard to imagine what two Bismarcks could have done operating together in the Atlantic. The Royal Navy would still have more warships available, but the balance changes a bit as the British heavy units now have to face sixteen 38 cm guns installed in armoured floating platforms that can move at 30 knots. In fact, the real problem for the Royal Navy wouldn't have been the numbers, but the capability to concentrate a strong, and above all, fast enough battleship force in the right place at the right time to face the German warships. The famous motto often applied on Bismarck: "faster than anything stronger and stronger than anything faster", perfectly illustrates what the Royal Navy has to deal with here.
Let's assume things had developed as originally planned for with Bismarck and Prinz Eugen in May 1941. In order to have a chance of a victorious outcome, Admiral Tovey would have most likely changed the disposition of his force and would have reinforced Vice Admiral Holland's battle group with an additional warship (Repulse?), while he himself stayed on King George V which would join the slow Rodney later. So, Bismarck and Tirpitz would have fought against Hood, Prince of Wales, and Repulse in the Denmark Strait. Interesting engagement, isn't it? Whatever the outcome of that battle could be, if the German battleships managed to reach the Atlantic, then Tovey would have to rely on carrier air strikes to damage or slow down at least one them. This wouldn't have been an easy task either as the Swordfish now have to face the AA artillery of two warships, and as one can imagine a lucky torpedo hit in a rudder does not occur every day.
Finally, had Admiral Lütjens managed to shake off his pursuers and reach the Atlantic in condition to wage war on the British merchant shipping, the situation would be quite different than his earlier sortie with Scharnhorst and Gneisenau. The Bismarck and Tirpitz could attack any British convoy, even those escorted by a battleship. The Royal Navy simply didn't have enough warships to protect every convoy against two battleships of this kind.
RodentRevolution
Banned
A British convoy defence only needs to damage one of the battleships and the Germans are boned.
Deleted member 2186
True but in the meantime those two German Battleships also could serious damage convoys.
RodentRevolution
Banned
The issue is the Germans need to stop the convoys for about three months to have a realistic trade off for the loss of one of their battleships which took roughly four years to complete. The British can afford to expend battleships, they have roughly fifteen available throughout the war, with the KGVs replacing accumulated losses and then three more (two Lions plus Vanguard) on the slips with work suspended in case of heavier than OTL losses. The Germans have four battleships.
Caution is always going to be their watchword.
But lets not forget, those two outrange nearly every -normal- convoy defence(aka destroyers and cruisers).
MatthewB
Banned
The Germans should have just bought aircraft from the Japanese, though I wonder if they’d be too fragile for North Sea ops.
RodentRevolution
Banned
They are a danger true. Thus they will face a proportionate response. Recall thanks to ULTRA the Admiralty knows where their supply ships are, it can also narrow down where the battleships each time there is a contact report. A British battleship that runs itself dry is in an awkward spot, begging fuel from passing destroyer or hoping one of the limited number of fleet auxiliaries is available. A German battleship that runs out of fuel is literally all at sea without a paddle.
Yes a sortie by two battleships might cause more damage to the convoys but conversely it would give the RN a target to concentrate against. By and large the Germans strategy of geographically separated taskforces acting as a fleet in being was likely the best way they were going to maximise the impact of their limited force.
Deleted member 2186
This would have happen to here, image taken in 1947 when she was used as a test bed for Soviet bombers off the coast of Poland.
Deleted member 92195
Someone managed to divulged part of the scenario.
I am afraid that is what the 15,000 words explain. It is extremely complicated just to explain how Tirpitz was completed on time. I’m on the latter stages of the essay but I refer you to my last post on this post. Part of the reason why I am finding it hard to complete is that I am moving house and my books are in boxes and if I buy more books they have to go in boxes.
Would you like me to give you spoiler? I’ll screenshot the contents page, that alone will make one scream in excitement.
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Yes, they bombed her, shelled her and THEN had to torpedo her at point blank, and she still didn't exactly go easily.This would have happen to here, image taken in 1947 when she was used as a test bed for Soviet bombers off the coast of Poland.
Anyway, that is what happens if she is caught. Any CV is boned in an engagement vs a surface unit (Even a DD). A few hits to the hanger / flight deck ruins a CV's day. There is a good reason Graf Zeppelin could do 34 knots.
Convoys at the time were covered either by a 'near escort' of a BB or two, or were shielded by a more distant separate BB TF. Study the Atlantic raid of the Scharnhorst & Geisnau & how the convoys defenses were organized and the RN was deployed to cover them.
https://ww2db.com/battle_spec.php?battle_id=265
Here two pf the five convoys intercepted had close escorts of a BB. The other three were not & the Brits had their shielding force to distant to intercept. Brit methods were altered after this raid. The interception of the Bismarck was assisted by the changes.
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I thought that was the motto of pocket battleships like Graf Spee and Scheer. What did the British have that was stronger than Bismarck?
As a battle cruiser, didn't Repulse have the same vulnerabilities as Hood? I think tactically the Germans could've won, with one or two British ships sunk, but would've been battered themselves and have to return to Norway or Germany.
The QE class would have been a handful as would the PoW, if they were dumb enough to allow Nelson or Rodney in range it would have been painful.
Aside from the fact that half those ships are either still in construction or already sunk, in one case literally on the other side of the world... the British would love nothing more then to have this fleet sailing around. Because it means they can concentrate the Royal Navy and Smash the entire surface threat in one decisive engagement. Or just sink the supply ships while the whole collection is out in the Atlantic and giggle to themselves at the Admirality...
Yes of course after being hit by POW. But with three British ships and Bismarck in the lead, it could've been worse, to the extent they decided they had to turn back.