WI Tirpitz sortied with Bismarck 1941?

Discussion in 'Alternate History Discussion: After 1900' started by starman, Nov 28, 2018.

  1. Eternity Well-Known Member

    Oct 29, 2009
    The Garden City, South Island, New Zealand
    Please post a link here :)
    WaterproofPotatoes likes this.
  2. Grand Archduke of Austria Well-Known Member

    Jan 11, 2016
    Heaven (land of peace)
    Yea I’ll link it.
  3. PSL Information not passed on is lost.

    Mar 20, 2017

    Yes a much better chance , but raider season was fall through spring , to better exploited bad weather. Just as important B-Dienst was in the process of mapping out the important convoy routs and penetrating WALLIE merchant codes, to greatly increase their chances of detecting convoys at sea. So over all better for KM.
  4. thaddeus Well-Known Member

    Jan 16, 2014
    know that development of the HE-177 "froze" numerous efforts? evolutionary changes to the Condor were not made, simple glide bombs neglected.

    edit. the BV-246 glide bomb was to have radio control, but they gave up on that with Allied jamming (latter war), jamming wouldn't be an issue out at sea and/or in '41-'42?

    or my speculative weapon, a "little Fritz-X" guided version of SC-250 (which was the weapon Condor carried historically)
    Last edited: Jul 11, 2019
  5. PSL Information not passed on is lost.

    Mar 20, 2017

    Any better exploitation of the RC guidance will make most attacks more successful. I gaze at the thousands of goliath RC systems built to "clear minefields". I stumbled on something that reported these were poor especially under fire, questioning the entire effort involved. Their range was not that great, but to hit something as big as a ship might be 'just up their alley'. Another alternative was to use these RC units to enhance combat training especially for LW pilots in dog fights.

    While your at it ,all those tiny Goliath toy track systems...the sheer tonnage of track systems involved could have allowed thousands of motorcycles to be instead built as Ketterand or better yet several thousand more track systems for SdKfz 3 Maultier truck conversions.

    1942 1088 Goliath RC ~ 924 accumulated tons of tractor construction. Could result in another 462 more trucks converted to SdKfz 3 Maultier truck [~2 tons per track system]
    1943 4494 Goliath RC ~ 3266 accumulated tons of tractor construction. Could result in another 1633 more trucks converted to SdKfz 3 Maultier truck [~2 tons per track system]
    1944 3102 Goliath RC ~ 2111 accumulated tons of tractor construction. Could result in another 1056 more trucks converted to SdKfz 3 Maultier truck [~2 tons per track system]

    How could this have any meaningful effect. R A Forczyk recounts how often vital SPW APC had to be diverted to rear to pick up supplies /ammo/fuel for forward units instead of their intended role as armored infantry, which BTW doubled the survival rate of German infantry when so equipped. In this time period 19,213 SPW APC where built expanding the inventory from 1600 in 1941 to ~ 8500 by 1944. If nothing else these Maultier could be seen as ~3000 more APC.

    Working back words the RC units are mini Fritz X [RADIO/WIRED] that's 8600 more ASM LW could use to support KM convoy war.

    BTW heavy warships had more than enough power to jam RADIO transmissions for miles & miles around. They did this at Normandy, although it was not full proof .But that would not be the case if a MPB attacking convoy thousands of km from home or using the wired guidance RC systems.
    Last edited: Jul 11, 2019
  6. thaddeus Well-Known Member

    Jan 16, 2014
    IF the Condor could launch radio controlled SC-250 they could have avoided both loading the airframe up with the heavy and cumbersome HS-293s and the earlier "dive bombing" type maneuvers that it was unsuited for?

    Dornier DO-24 could carry the same armament.
  7. James Ricker Own your mistakes

    Oct 29, 2016
    Boston Massachusetts
    if the kriegsmarine was able to get the Tirpitz in commission a few months earlier, a more efficient shipbuilding program could have accomplished that.
    A. Morgan likes this.
  8. Carl Schwamberger Well-Known Member

    Dec 14, 2012
    It appears the Brits were pretty clueless about the breaking of the convoy radio codes. They did not figure it out until late 1942. So yes
  9. NOMISYRRUC He isn't the best, but he is in the top one...

    Nov 7, 2014
    According to Whitley in German Capital Ships of World War Two, Bismarck and Tirpitz were both completed about a year late. He didn't say so in the case of these ships, but he did say that other ships were completed late (or not at all) because Germany's naval armaments industry could not cope with the sudden increase in the demand for its products.

    So, I think what needed to be done from the signing of the AGNA was to build fewer warships so that more would be completed on time, effectively, "Less is more."

    Graff Zeppelin and Aircraft Carrier B would be at the top of my "What not to build," list.

    If Bismarck had been completed on time, it's likely that she would be ready to take part in Operation Juno, which might mean that The Twins weren't so badly damaged, which in turn might mean an earlier Operation Berlin, which might consist of The Twins reinforced by Bismarck and Tirpitz.
    Logan2879 and Butchpfd like this.
  10. PSL Information not passed on is lost.

    Mar 20, 2017
    The narrative I recall was that Reader complains bitterly in 1937, that due to massive slow down in expected steel delivery schedules all of the warships that are being built are behind. Some newer models were only 3 months behind, while others like the aircraft carriers are 22 months behind schedule. Over all the fleet wide average is 11 months. If you track the construction tonnage through 1936-1939 it is apparent....

    {warship tonnage in kilo tons}
    [ armor tonnage in kilo-tons]
    ================= warship completed.

    PzK panzer Kreuzer [ Faster AGS]
    PzSch Panzerschife much lighter version of TWINS earlier design.

    1934/35 {73kt} [7kt] =6 PzK{11kt}[1kt]

    1936 = {86kt} [9kt] = 6 PzK{3.5kt}[1.67kt] 10 PzSch {7.2kt} [0]

    1937 = {88kt} [14kt] ================ 10 PzSch {8.8kt}[1.4kt]

    1938 = {145kt} [23kt] = 6 PzK{7kt} [.5kt] == 10 PzSch {8kt} [2kt] 3 PzK {3kt} [0] ** 14kt surplus

    1939 = {101kt} [33kt] = 6 PzK{6kt} [1.17kt] =10 PzSch {3.4kt} [2.6kt] 3 PzK {7kt} [0] ** 10kt surplus

    1940 = {49 kt} [10kt] = 6 PzK{2kt} [1.33kt] =================== 3 PzK {3kt} [0.67kt] ***28kt surplus

    1941= {14 kt} [6kt] ===================================== 3 PzK {1.4 kt} [1.33kt] ***9.8kt surplus.