WI Tirpitz sortied with Bismarck 1941?

Discussion in 'Alternate History Discussion: After 1900' started by starman, Nov 28, 2018.

  1. SsgtC Ready to Call it a Day

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    Technically both Rodney and Nelson outclassed her as 16" battleships. The QEs and the Rs were an even match in firepower and the KGVs mounted more guns with superior armor.

    Worse. Repulse had only enough armor to defeat 6"-8" gunfire. Or put another way, just enough armor to trigger the fuse on a 15" AP shell. Hood at least had armor equivalent to a WWI battleship and had an immune zone against 15" guns. Repulse could be penetrated at any range.
     
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  2. Grand Archduke of Austria Well-Known Member

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    I HAVE FOUND AND BOUGHT THE BOOK I AM LOOKING FOR TODAY!!!!!!! YES!!! I FOUND IT!!!

    The last time I felt like this was when I found Indio Jones plans for rebuilding the Palace of Whitehall or when I finally realised that I understood Heinz Guderian full concept of Modern Warfare.

    It talks about everything I want it to talk about. I can now conceivably finish the essay. Sorry for the over reaction but when you cannot find a book anywhere for so many years and you just come across it one day. Emotion comes over you.

    With enough information I can now conduct multiple analysis, triangulate it to then create synthesis. I’ll upload images later.

    I cannot believe I found it...
     
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  3. Alanith Well-Known Member

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    [​IMG]

    One Canvas Boi flinging one aerial torpedo into a vulnerable area.

    Battleships are obsolete compared to a Carriers ability to project power a hundred miles or more away from her deck.
     
  4. Zheng He Well-Known Member

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    The German battlecruisers then set to hunt down Allied convoy HX-111, during which attempt they came across another convoy on 22 Feb en route to the United States after already having emptied their cargo in Britain. This attack lasted over 12 hours, during which 5 ships were sunk. The attack was reported by the convoy.

    Interesting, that is an awful lot of effort to sink five ships.
     
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  5. Post Well-Known Member

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    Seems to be correct though
    http://www.scharnhorst-class.dk/scharnhorst/history/scharnberlin.html
     
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  6. Zheng He Well-Known Member

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    Agreed, I'm just amazed in the effort involved to sink five ships. This supports my argument that the best use for Germany's capital ships was to sit in well defended fjords in Norway making rude noises across the North Sea. That ties down a significant portion of the Royal Navy at little cost to the Germans.
     
  7. Eternity Well-Known Member

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    Also saves on heaps of precious fuel
     
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  8. Kalga Yell's Shipyard

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    The thing is though, the German Navy of WWII remembered how the High Seas Fleet of WWI was perceived as wasting away in their ports and unable to do anything despite the vast sums spent on them, and they don't want a repeat of that. Thus all the risky shit to justify their existence to the eyes of the people & leadership, despite being the less optimal options.
     
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  9. Zheng He Well-Known Member

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    Fair point, no question about that.
     
  10. naraic Well-Known Member

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    It's worth noting that German Battleships didn't use the big guns against convoys. This meant that when attacking convoys they used the secondary weapons which have shorter range. This is because gun barrels wore out relatively easy.

    This means that if a convoy scatters to a degree they have to run down the ships they want to sink. Even a faster ship has to take a lot of time to run down targets.
     
  11. Eternity Well-Known Member

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    Unless they take the gloves off that is.

    Of course, the idea is to capture the ships and open the seacocks or sail them to friendly ports. That way you don't waste ammo.

    Of course, that also means you basically have to pull alongside and point guns at the offending (And running away at full tilt) ship.

    Takes time.
     
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  12. Grand Archduke of Austria Well-Known Member

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    I actually bought two books today. Both are important, I bought German German Paratroops because they take part in capturing the French Fleet in North Algeria. I will probably come to appreciate it a lot, much later when writing that section of the essay, but that is why I bought it. (See the third image.) However, it is U-boats longest voyages which is critical at this point because I am writing about a German long-range U-boat strategy in World War II. It just talks about things you just cannot find anywhere on the internet or any German WWII naval book on U-boats even!!!! (See the second image.) I could not even find this book on the internet.


    thumbnail_IMG_1429.jpg

    thumbnail_IMG_1430.jpg

    thumbnail_IMG_1431.jpg
     
    Last edited: Jun 15, 2019
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  13. MatthewB Well-Known Member

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    The easy fix is for Bismarck and Prinz Eugen to WAIT until Tirpitz is fully worked up and ready. If the Germans wait until June, Gneisenau can also join, having completed mine damage repairs and reporting for service at Kiel on May 27, 1941. Wait until July and Scharnhorst can also join, having completed her machinery repairs at Kiel. As for cruisers, Admiral Hipper is out of service until end of 1941, but Lutzow returned to service in late March 1941, and Admiral Scheer returned to Kiel in early April 1941. The CLs are available too, IIRC.

    So, in June 1941 send out Bismarck, Tirpitz, Gneisenau, Lutzow, Admiral Scheer and Prinz Eugen. Plus send some destroyers and any CLs available. Destroy all the convoys and RN ships you find, and then go to Brest for refuel, with massive Luftwaffe air protection once arrived.

    To counter this force the RN has three KGV class and three battlecruisers. Everything else is too slow unless the FAA can intervene. If the Germans could coordinate things, they'd have U-Boats stalk out the BB bases.
     
    Last edited: Jun 15, 2019
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  14. weasel_airlift Well-Known Member

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    Three KGV? In July of 1941? Duke of York didn't commission until November of that year, and probably isn't fit to send out until December or January. Repulse is refitting, so she's not available.

    That said, a set-piece battle with all of the German heavy units is the RN wet dream. As Tovey, I will catch you with whatever I have, and be content merely to slow you down. Then the slower Queens and Nelsons can catch up...
     
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  15. MatthewB Well-Known Member

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    Correction - make that two KGV class.
     
  16. MatthewB Well-Known Member

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    Maybe so, but be careful what you wish for. Presumably, Bismarck's sortie ignited an all hands on deck response from the RN. Per OTL, the RN doesn't know where exactly the German force is, so can't concentrate its four fast units (KGV, PoW, Hood, Repulse) into one force. PoW and Hood would not want to meet this force without CV back-up BEFORE the shooting starts.

    And, if we assume the Germans know RAF reconnaissance is overflying their ships, we may see Lutjens order his ships to sail from different ports and different days, meeting up later off Iceland. IOTL, the RAF found Bismarck in Norway and quickly reported it, with the RN going apesh#t to respond. But I wonder if the RAF continued its reconnaissance flights over Norway and German ports to ensure the other available ships did not also sail a few days later.

    IMO, the biggest issue for a large deployment as I describe is fuel. Barbarossa is about to get underway, Rommel is fighting in North Africa, etc. Fuel may be scarce.
     
  17. A. Morgan Stranger in a Strange Land

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    5 (I presume) unarmed merchantships.
     
  18. RelativeGalaxy7 Junior Canada Wanker

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    None of the German CL's still afloat are capable of open ocean operations. Every ship of the Konigsberg and Leipzeig class were too structurally weak due to a way too high length to beam ratio plus a lightly built hull. Only Karlsruhe was capable of open sea operations due to a rebuild she got after she was nearly sunk in 1936 by a storm.
     
  19. Kalga Yell's Shipyard

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    The problems with putting all the battlewagons in one raiding group is that they could only be at one place at one time, and their threat rating doesn't increase exponentially, or even lineally for that matter. While it might have stroked plenty of egos, it really isn't doing its intended purpose.

    (I mean, I also think raiders with capital ship armaments & armor is a waste of resources, but that's another matter entirely)
     
  20. Carl Schwamberger Well-Known Member

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    Scattering a convoy makes it more vulnerable to submarines. Thats what happened to PQ17 the threat of attack by a capitol ship cause Admiral Pound to order the convoy to disperse. The scattered ships were picked off by submarines and air attacks. Hypothetically this should have happened with the several surface ship raids into the Atlantic. However the coordination of the surface TF and the submarines was not achieved.