My understanding is that the British were shocked by the level of information that the 621st had managed to glean. The units commander for example had lived in Britain and understood the nuances and idiosyncrasies of ‘English’ English. So for example use of upper class ‘fox hunting’ terminology was fully understood and was no use in hiding the true intention of the communication. While there was a general improvement in radio op sec at the time the the realisation that so much ‘treasure’ was being gifted to the enemy massively focused efforts.
WI Tirpitz sortied with Bismarck 1941?
- Thread starter starman
- Start date
I agree with this and many of the other posts above. However, let us consider...Hitler and the German high brass decide that yes Bismarck and Tirpitz should sortie together...at a later date, say July of 1941, and while we are at it let's allow the Germans to create a task group with a large percentage of their available surface fleet. (We will ignore the submarines for now.) Somehow the task group gets out around the British home fleet (Graf Zeppelin fighters shoot down the recon and scout planes?... therefore no scout ships are sent to patrol the straits). Since this is all theoretical lets go to the extremes and say they went out along the far far side of Iceland (probably the same route that Bismarck took in OTL) then way out into the Atlantic and back into the southern ports of occupied France. Resupply and head back out into the Atlantic ocean. Once the British home fleet is concentrated most of the big guns (Hood, Repulse, Renown, both KGVs in service, Nelson, Rodney, and the QEs in home fleet) are sent south-ish along french coast but well out of range of land attack craft with a decent size escort of smaller ships. most of the aircraft carriers are left around England for defense or are otherwise engaged. The Germans make a run from the French coast and bypass the tail end of this battle line by miles, in the night. Let's set a standard speed of around 23 kn (theoretically all of the ships should be able to keep this pace.) The Royal Navy is utterly embarrassed(no offense Great Britain, I love you guys and your navy unless you are beating us(the U.S.A.)) at having missed almost the entirety of the German surface fleet again. The task group/force becomes a very powerful international threat. Unlike the submarines the ships are extremely visible and cannot hide underwater(obviously). That being said; the US Navy would be unhappy to have to engage as it is technically "neutral" (although I think only american politicians believed that.) But with the threats to multiple eastern seaboard ports it is not unlikely that they will consider a "slugfest" with the taskforce a legitimate possibility...also a nightmare scenario. Also who doesn’t want to show up the Royal Navy. There are I believe minimum of 7 comparable be us battleships that could coordinate with the British battle-cruiser scout group while keeping just enough ships(barely) in the pacific. (A remodeled/Refitted Hood (because its theoretical and was planned), Renown, Repulse, and a respectable cruiser and destroyer screen... lets say a couple of Didos (3), a couple of Southhamptons (3), Norfolk, and just for fun let's throw in only 2 town class destroyers.) For now let's just go with the U.S. and Great Britain being on good terms, the British ships are communicating with the rather aggressively made up neutrality patrols. Mainly because now that there is a large german surface fleet, the Germans have now become a major concern to any and all shipping interest around the world that are not allied with the Axis.
So because this is a theoretical situation, lets just say that there are a number of ship combinations that could happen... but... lets keep it narrowed to ships that should be or would have been available at the time... let's set this at late probably September or October 1941. Okay on to the "available" ships say that for some unknown reason both Pennsylvanias (Pennsylvania and Arizona) are in from the Pacific (lord only knows why), USS Arkansas just happens to be at Hampton roads...and for some reason (mainly because this is a what if) The USN managed to convince the signatories to the multiple interwar naval agreements that it needed 2 Lexington class battlecruisers (OTL designations for the completed ships were CC-1 Lexington and CC-3 Saratoga) and converted 2 others (CC-5 Constitution and CC-6 United States), in favor of scrapping one of the Wyoming class battleships (preferably Wyoming in favor of keeping Arkansas), USS Washington is still scrapped from OTL Washington naval treaty and also scraping Nevada, and not building the other 2 scheduled Lexingtons. Let's also assume that we can somehow get New York and Texas into New York harbor for resupply before they are shifted to the Pacific. Let us also move at least one probably two New Mexicos (New Mexico and Idaho) into the Atlantic somewhere, possibly off the coast of Florida because of a recent outbreak of pirates from Brazil (I'd like to think that most pirates have a better sense of survival than a dueling “slugfest” with a battleship). The Lexington sisters and their flat-tops are operating out of Philadelphia harbor, they operate in scouting pairs, usually Lexington-Constitution, and Saratoga -United States.
So we now have a dispersed American fleet in the Atlantic totaling about 9 and 11 capital ships (7 slightly outmoded and/or sightly outclassed battleships and 2 Battlecruisers of same relative age and upkeep as our remod/rebuild/refitted HMS Hood. Theoretically they have been remodeled similarly to or matching Hood, so they can take a slightly heavier beating), 2 fast flat-tops (Constitution and United States (OTL Lexington and Saratoga)), and probably a multitude of smaller ships (probably somewhere between 50 and 100). The British have a remodeled/refitted Hood, Repulse, Renown, 6 light cruisers, Norfolk, and 2 destroyers. They are (hopefully) easily keeping up with, yet out of reach of, the German squadron. The German Squadron would likely consist of Bismarck, Tirpitz, Scharnhorst, Gneisenau, heavy cruisers Admiral Hipper, Blucer, Seydlitz, Lutzow, and Prinz Eugen (not necessarily a battleships but still dangerous in a fight) and all 3 Pocket battleships (Deutschland, Admiral Graf Spee, and Admiral Scheer), probably a completed Graf Zeppelin (because the sortie was happening later and it’s theoretical.) and around 15 of their completed destroyers.
So it is now likely somewhere between September and November when the Royal Navy gets its aforementioned second embarrassment. The German ships are on the loose headed south and west across the Atlantic ocean. The British have sent almost all of the other ships back towards their OTL assignments. Being that Bismarck never sank the Hood there is a sense of urgency about the destruction of the German task force but since the navy does not need to avenge its most valuable and famous ship. So the Royal Navy can reduce their assets on the following the german task force. The shadowing force now consists of our version Hood, Repulse, Renown, and the KGVs that were completed and their 9 ship screen. These battle-cruisers probably cannot survive a "slugfest" as has been mentioned many times before, they can however shadow the German force and alert the U.S.N. as to its position. The U.S.N. makes the decision to send out its Battle-cruisers Lexington and Saratoga to link up with the british scout group. Their captains confirm the situation after witnessing the German task-force decimate an entire convoy off the coast of Morocco. These U.S.N. battlecruisers are to attach themselves to the british shadow force. The U.S.N. brass then create taskforce BT. It consists of the returned Lexington, her sister Saratoga, both of which have eight 16 inch guns, New York, Texas, Arizona, Pennsylvania, Arkansas, New Mexico, Idaho, the aircraft carriers CV-Constitution, and CV-United States, a respectable cruiser force of approximately 40 smaller ships from heavy cruisers to destroyer escorts (13 assorted cruisers, 15 destroyers, and 24 destroyer escorts). Just for kicks and giggles let's say that the Royal navy's battle-cruiser force joins in with task-force BT.
The collection of steel behemoths collide off the coast of Uruguay and Argentina. LET THE BATTLE BEGIN!
The big German ships take aim at the smaller ships of the other's task force. The smaller ships of the American-British fleet are sent to create a perimeter, their task is to A. Not get killed and B. Keep the German capital ships from fleeing the American battlewagons. This is directed towards anything from cruisers down to destroyer escorts. After four destroyer escorts are pegged and sunk by a set of long-range shots from Bismarck which ironically enough knocks out her fire control radar (OTL plot twist), then after they (the smaller U.S.N. ships, cruisers, destroyers, and Destroyer-Escorts)scatter; the twins (Scharnhorst and Gneisenau), Tirpitz and Bismarck commence open fire on the allied task force because they are literally between rock(land) and a hard place(The Anglo-American taskforce). Graf Zeppelin launches her planes. The American refitted and modified battlecruisers give their 16in guns the longest range possible, and open fire back while attempting to stay moving at a high enough speed that they don't get hit by the Germans, the British Battlecruisers follow suit with their 15in guns as well. The American battlewagons roll up along with the British battleships, King George V and Prince of Wales. The Pennsylvania sisters take aim at the twins, somehow the twins display their uncanny ability to not get hit by all 12 shells from the forward guns of the closing American battleships. The Twins break formation and begin “chasing splashes.” The New York twins trian all 20 of their 15in main guns against the Bismarck. Tirpitz is still slightly out of their range. Besides she is preoccupied with the closing New Mexico. Suddenly out of nowhere from the backside of nowhere Idaho opens fire on Tirpitz from the opposite side as New Mexico who is still closing. However The Idaho fired prematurely… this is a slight problem because...the captain of New Mexico is a relatively bright fellow...he immediately realizes the danger to his own ship from friendly fire and breaks off his attack to allow Idaho to have her way with the rather impressive Tirpitz not realizing that Idaho was still out of range and closing. Ironically this provides Tirpitz with an unprecedented opportunity. If she were to be able to get out from between the two american battleships she could make a run for the cruisers, and the relative protection of her group mates, this would provide help because of the mutual protection against being singled out. But that would expose her to a broadside from Idaho, whose main battery would be devastating, however so would the threat from Tirpitz sent sincerely to Idaho. It would be a gamble but would the American crew dare to let her get her torpedo tubes in position in order to engage with their broadside? Unlikely, They have several ships that could easily match pace with the mighty Tirpitz should she make it back out into open water. But thanks to the uneasy alliance between “the Fatherland” and Japan, Tirpitz now has access to the Japanese design of torpedos...far better than anything the Germans have yet created.
Bismarck opens up with a full broadside into New York at extreme ranges, she takes two rounds in the aft Superstructure. One round in her number 3 turret. It bounces across the face, and harmlessly into the sea. The other round from that turret straddles her. She takes the other four rounds across the bow...one in the port side anchor, one in the upper part of the forward superstructure, this minorly damages her fire control systems. One in the face of turret number one another in the roof of turret number one. This disables turret number one from the inside. It doesn’t explode however, the plating that armors the ship buckled and jammed the gears that turned the turret. At the same time New York opened up on Bismarck, ten rounds, direct into the main belt, or straddling most simply dent Bismarck's tough hide(big dents). One punctures the side, Bismarck is now leaking fuel oil(big surprise not like that never happened in OTL or anything). Now Texas has joined the fray, again at extreme ranges for their outdated guns. Texas rapid fires, Three ten round salvos into Bismarck's superstructure, turrets, and top decks. At least that was where she aimed. sadly most of these shots miss, others bounce harmlessly off the starboard side armor of Bismarck, her crew is not happy with the dents in their shiny new ship, they are angered now anyways, they are determined to survive this fight. Although they all have the feeling that this is not how this fight was meant to go originally. Bismarck’s crew manage to stop all of the internal damage, and she and her consort Prinz Eugen are now attempting to break formation and make a break from the older slower American battleships. They know they can’t run far but they might just be able to intimidate their way out of range of the New York’s and Texas’ guns and past the american and british escort quarantine. The little ships wouldn’t dare get in front of the mighty german battleships, for a single shell could easily sink one of them, let alone the full fury of a true battleship.
The planes from the three involved aircraft carriers meet in the sky, every single anti-aircraft gun is manned and ready to fire at the first enemy plane to make a mistake and get close enough. for the most part the planes know they must stay out of the airspace around the battleships. The Americans are not using the same outdated Fairey Swordfish that the British are, they use the tank-like Douglas SBD Dauntless. This plane can fly, bomb and shoot. It can take a pounding and still come home. Although slow and cumbersome, it is miles ahead of most other planes of its kind in any military service especially those in the atlantic theatre. The American fighter/escort planes are the famous/infamous Grumman F4F Wildcats. Any pilot crazy enough to take on a squad of these planes flown by combat experienced pilots better be ready for the fight of his life. Theoretically Constitution and United States would launch these in a coordinated attack with the American Battleships. The German aircraft carrier is much larger and more problematic for the americans to deal with. A plane with a probable range of 300 miles or so could easily bomb any city within 150 miles of shore on a clear day. One of the primary objective of this operation must be to sink or otherwise incapacitate Graf Zeppelin.
When the fray began, before any of the battleships caught up with each other or even considered themselves to be in firing range, Graf Zeppelin was ordered out of the taskforce and into self-survival mode. She scrambled her fighters to provide air cover over her comrades and left the scene. Just over the horizon out of visual contact her crew can hear the thunderous barks of the guns. There is a constant stream of reports coming in to the Graf Zeppelin CIC, they have placed themselves under radio silence to decrease their chance detection. she makes for open water while still attempting to remain within range of her fighters.
Now that Tirpitz has managed to narrow her odds to basically 1-on-1 She steadily builds up her speed to link up with and cover for her slightly wounded sister and their consorts. Bismarck and Tirpitz are reunited with their larger partners. The american capital ships are still slightly scattered but returning to their paired formations. this lapse in military judgement allows the german ships to regroup, as the sun is setting the american ships go to a blackout-radio silence mode, their radar is still active but they are limiting their output, their maneuvers are all pre-planned. All of the captains and navigation-piloting staff have been informed. the german ships go to a combat blackout as well and with minimal radio traffic organize themselves into a force that is able to slip off into the night. With some of the american ships licking their wounds as well as most of the German ships being at least somewhat damaged this first confrontation is largely considered a tie. However it did majorly boost the German morale and confidence level. The Americans and British lighter forces track the german squadron through the night. With Bismarck leaking fuel oil the squadron has little choice but to find a port willing to sell them oil and possibly affect emergency repairs. The squadron heads for Uruguay. There they manage to “diplomatically” ensure that they get what they need...fuel and swift repairs.
Next morning the British-American joint fleet unwilling to risk a diplomatic incident waits spread over several nautical miles out into neutral waters, hoping for a second confrontation. The destroyer escorts are proving their weight in gold as they are providing scout patrols to help track the whereabouts of the German ships. New York’s damage crews have pulled off several small miracles in that they are able to restore most of her functions, and she can even keep pace with the fleet. Included in the non-combat vessels of the american fleet is an early version of the floating drydock. Fully staffed, they are able to fix almost anything that could be wrong with a warship, during the night New York's crew make good use of this and they manage to do even better than the estimates. The damaged fire control system is repaired in just under 4 hours. The Number 1 turret’s operational status restored in six hours.
A tropical storm boiled up in the night and allowed the German ships to slip away from the American light forces in the night. The German ships head for the German friendly yet neutral Brazil, for more in-depth repairs if possible and refueling so that they can make a break for the occupied European coast. Graf Zeppelin lost several of its fighters. Bismarck still needs to patch its leaking starboard fuel cell and repair their fire control radar. Tirpitz is relatively functional and is able to use her excess fuel stores to keep Bismarck from running herself dry. somehow Scharnhorst and Gneisenau remained unscathed, Prinz Eugen’s fire control radar was damaged in the fighting as well. So they should probably repair that if they can’t do it while at sea.
Approximately 15 days after the first battle, the American and British force catch up with the German task group assembled in tight formation in the mid-Atlantic. The 15 days has allowed for the british to send for reinforcements from the european fleets. The British have sent Rodney and Nelson to make-up for the crippled New York and ensure overwhelming firepower. The Germans are still working their way across the Atlantic and back up to occupied Europe. Lexington and Saratoga with the best radar available and the biggest guns in either task group, have the range to be able to engage first. While the other ships are closing to a more workable range Lexington and Saratoga begin rapid fire in the direction of the task force, quickly refining their targeting. Orders are sent to the lighter units of the American and British fleets, stay out of the fight. Lexington and Saratoga providing covering fire allow the ships with smaller guns...i.e. Arizona, Texas, Pennsylvania, Hood, Repulse, Renown, King George V and Prince of Wales, all with smaller guns close on the smaller German Fleet. Constitution and United States drop back and scramble all 156 of their combined fighters and bombers. Graf Zeppelin goes to full throttle and scrambles all 42 of her planes. The planes clash in the skies between the three aircraft carriers. Bismarck and Tirpitz execute a ninety degree turn to port bringing their broadsides to bare on the closing battleships. Lexington and Saratoga continue firing towards the German Ships. Now that all of the battleships have closed to a range with probable hits, Bismarck, Tirpitz, Scharnhorst, and Gneisenau begin firing towards the Allied forces. Saratoga, Texas, Pennsylvania, Rodney and Prince of Wales are all closing on Bismarck. Hood, Repulse, Renown, King George V, Arizona, Nelson and Lexington are all closing on Tirpitz, Gneisenau, and Scharnhorst. With the hard ninety degree turn to port, they have brought themselves into a broadside duel with a numerically superior force. This is every tacticians nightmare. With the battle groups formed the allied ships begin concentrated firing. Lexington, Hood, and Nelson concentrate their fire on Tirpitz; Repulse, Renown, King George V, and Arizona concentrate on Gneisenau. The monstrous guns bark with authority, to an observer it would have been compared with the likes of a shouting match.
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Deleted member 92195
Just so you know I have written 6,000 words but I need to go on a shopping spree. For example, it is really difficult to find detailed information on Type IX (correction) u-boats when they commonly built and used Type VIII U-boats. I will probably have to use a number of sources and combine them to paint a picture.
I only just happen to come across these in a second-hand bookshop, but they will assist me, the bottom one talks about the Azores.
I only just happen to come across these in a second-hand bookshop, but they will assist me, the bottom one talks about the Azores.
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Khanzeer
Banned
Another target for FAA and possibly a RN submarine , I see KM losing all 3 ships rather than just Bismarck in this ill fated mission.
I still do not see what was the purpose of sacrificing Bismarck in the way it was done in the OTL
WI both Bismarck /Tirpitiz , both BC and all remaning modern surface ships of KM had been concentrated in Norway, given adequate fighter cover, U-boat and shore based support of anti-shipping aircraft.Would they have been successful in stopping artic conveys to USSR ? Even for a few critical months of the war
One would have to sift the reports, memoirs intel analysis, and orders. Its clear there was a large scale renovation of signals security, intel work, security, ect... in the Middle east from the spring of 42. The usual story is the forward position of the 621st SigBn was deliberately targeted. Its not unbelievable the evidence turned up post attack was 'shocking' & motived further tightening of security.
Should be the numbers somewhere to estimate that. Bunker fuel for ships does not translate directly to aircraft fuel or tanks, but there are plenty of other industrial consumers that would be affected.
thaddeus
Donor
you are speculating on the same scenario I've had over a number of years. however there was a British convoy they hoped to stop, quickly scanned thru this thread and did not find the mention of it? maybe someone else can highlight the details on that?
(a convoy headed to Egypt/North African theater)
The German heavy ships get criticized for being wasteful but a number of us have pointed out that TIRPITZ by herself was arguably the most successful fleet in being in history. IMWO if the Germans concentrate both sets of Twins in Norwegian waters and they don't do anything except make rude noises, they will tie down a massive amount of assets for a considerable period of time. On a positive note, it could prevent Force Z from getting sent to Singapore.
MatthewB
Banned
I assume we’ve somehow advanced her availability days. Otherwise Tirpitz isn’t sailing and this thread dies at birth.
Or they simply don't run Murmansk convoys and priority for getting LL to the Soviet Union is put on the Persian and Far Eastern routes.
MatthewB
Banned
Can we give Tirpitz, Bismarck and Prinz Eugen some of the destroyers that survived the massacre at Narvik?
They’re all short ranged, so some sort of refueling will be necessary. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_World_War_II_destroyers
It’s too bad, for the Germans that Scharnhorst and Gneisenau aren’t available due to damage. That would have made for a strong force.
They’re all short ranged, so some sort of refueling will be necessary. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_World_War_II_destroyers
It’s too bad, for the Germans that Scharnhorst and Gneisenau aren’t available due to damage. That would have made for a strong force.
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So forgive me if this has been answered (Only on Pg1), but a few issues with the ships.
Bismarck - Ok
Tirpitz - Ok, finish her early. Doable.
The Twins - Ok.
Graf Zeppelin - She would need to be speed up dramatically. Possible, but what about aircraft? None were operational and only a handful were tested in '42-'43. Will Goering give them up so willingly?
Admiral Graf Spee - Sunk
Admiral Scheer - Ok
Deutschland - Wasn't she undergoing major repair at the time? Could be sped up, but you have to delay the sortie.
Submarines - I'll assume they were built.
Admiral Hipper - Ok
Blucher - Sunk
Prinz Eugen - Ok
Seydlitz - Needs to be finished.
Lutzow - Needs to be finished even more than Seylditz.
Where do the resources come from to speed up construction of ships, provide aircraft and save the sunken / damaged ones? What is the PoD please?
Lets not forget the need to lengthen the ships as well to provide suitable forward reserve buoyancy. That isn't happening at Brest.
Which will be a major issue for a German fleet. Resupply / Refuel.
They need a location somewhere out of range of the British. Where is it? If they stop to meet a supply ship (They'll need like 10 for the fleet) they the RN can attach at that stage. What if the supply ships are sunk? Run out of fuel and drift?
Head to port and have submarines & surface fleet bottle you up? The British hold the aces I'm afraid. The Germans don't. Also about fuel. If the fleet gets it (And they will need huge amounts) then the Lufwaffe and Heer do NOT get it. That will curtail their operational ability severely.
You are actually shortening the war for Germany, as they can't launch attacks or defend with mechanical units. Hitler would do the allies a favour sending out that fleet.
RodentRevolution
Banned
The issue with fuel is that thanks to Ultra the British knew where all the refuelling ships were. After Bismarck was sunk they 'accidentally' found them to stop them refuelling U-boats. Here, they likely just swat them once the heavies are out in the thirsty mid-Atlantic.
Graf Spee was a Armoured Ship..... Graf Zeppelin perhaps?
Anyway, if you are looking at her performing CAP patrols, I would ditch everything but fighters and a few scouts. No need for offensive aircraft with that fleet.
Ramontxo
Donor
Ejem... Yes the Graf Zeppelin... Sorry and about using it to provide fighters against the FAA, it would be better than nothing but even if working as advertised (that is if actually able to land in the carrier with only a reasonable number accidents) they wouldn't protect against the night torpedo attacks the Swordfish would do