WI: The Catholic Church Resurrects The Pentarchy (Or Creates Its Own Version)

[TickTock The Witch's Dead]

The Pentarchy was once a structure of five Christian churches in Rome, Alexandria, Jerusalem, Antioch, and Constantinople that governed the faith. But it fell apart after the Muslim invasions and the Catholic-Orthodox Schism. However if the Vatican is ambitious enough or if certain religious/political movements forced circumstances (like the Conciliarism movement), can we see the Catholic Church resurrect the Pentarchy or create its own version?

I won't be surprised if this definitely requires a Crusader POD, though a more modern POD can work too. Basically have the Catholic Church establish a similar power structure like the OTL Pentarchy even if it doesn't contain all of the OTL cities it requires.

 

[Orko]

Why? That's basically the Pope agreeing to give up some of his power and distribute it to other seats. Why do that when he can instead affirm his supremacy over all of christendom.

 

[Simreeve]

In addition to the pope (Patriarch of Rome) they have a titular 'Latin Patriarch of Jerusalem', who apparently doesn't actually exercise any ecclesiastical authority in the region, and for some time (I don't know how long...) before 1964 -- when the titles were abolished -- they had Patriarchs of Alexandria, of Antioch, and of Constantinople.
Their various affiliated 'Eastern Catholic' churches have one Patriarch of Alexandria and three (!) Patriarchs of Antioch, as well as several "of" cities outside the original Pentarchy.
Plus there have been patriarchs, or at least [in some cases] titular patriarchs, with other cities in their designations.

See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patriarch#Patriarchs.

 

[Simreeve]

In addition to the pope (Patriarch of Rome) they have a titular 'Latin Patriarch of Jerusalem', who apparently actually exercises ecclesiastical authority over a single 'Metropolitanate' (i.e. group of diccoeses) in the region, and for some time (I don't know how long...) before 1964 -- when the titles were abolished -- they had Patriarchs of Alexandria, of Antioch, and of Constantinople.
Their various affiliated 'Eastern Catholic' churches have one Patriarch of Alexandria and three (!) Patriarchs of Antioch, as well as several "of" cities outside the original Pentarchy.
Plus there have been patriarchs, or at least [in some cases] titular patriarchs, with other cities in their designations.

See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patriarch#Patriarchs.

 

[TickTock The Witch's Dead]

Why? That's basically the Pope agreeing to give up some of his power and distribute it to other seats. Why do that when he can instead affirm his supremacy over all of christendom.

That's why I said it would require some political/religious PODs like a successful Conciliarism movement. Basically one where some Catholics feel it would be better if Rome had reduced better.

In addition to the pope (Patriarch of Rome) they have a titular 'Latin Patriarch of Jerusalem', who apparently doesn't actually exercise any ecclesiastical authority in the region, and for some time (I don't know how long...) before 1964 -- when the titles were abolished -- they had Patriarchs of Alexandria, of Antioch, and of Constantinople.
Their various affiliated 'Eastern Catholic' churches have one Patriarch of Alexandria and three (!) Patriarchs of Antioch, as well as several "of" cities outside the original Pentarchy.
Plus there have been patriarchs, or at least [in some cases] titular patriarchs, with other cities in their designations.

See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patriarch#Patriarchs.

I meant that they would gain more powerful somehow.

 

[spectrum]

Your best chance of it happening is during the Rome-Avignon catholic split. Have the crisis result in further fragmentation with each of the major Western European powers claiming the papacy (you’d have to change the college of cardinals makeup significantly in the lead up, but it’s doable). As result you’d have popes in Rome(primary strength in Italy), Avignon (France),th Cologne (HRE), Santiago de Composteda (Iberia) and Canterbury (Britain). Eventually have the respective popes and their followers unite under a compromise that resurrects the 5 sided patriarchy of equals ideal in the West.

As for the consequence, with less central authority and funds, the beginning of the renaissance is going to be less focused in Italy (due to less focused patronage). The printing press is still coming, so there is still going to be a massive call for church reform - but wether the most powerful Kings of Europe allow a breakaway Protestant movement to form when their own personal influence of the local patriarch is likely to be much stronger than the distant influence they had in our timeline, I doubt it.

 

[Orko]

Your best chance of it happening is during the Rome-Avignon catholic split. Have the crisis result in further fragmentation with each of the major Western European powers claiming the papacy (you’d have to change the college of cardinals makeup significantly in the lead up, but it’s doable). As result you’d have popes in Rome(primary strength in Italy), Avignon (France),th Cologne (HRE), Santiago de Composteda (Iberia) and Canterbury (Britain). Eventually have the respective popes and their followers unite under a compromise that resurrects the 5 sided patriarchy of equals ideal in the West.

As for the consequence, with less central authority and funds, the beginning of the renaissance is going to be less focused in Italy (due to less focused patronage). The printing press is still coming, so there is still going to be a massive call for church reform - but wether the most powerful Kings of Europe allow a breakaway Protestant movement to form when their own personal influence of the local patriarch is likely to be much stronger than the distant influence they had in our timeline, I doubt it.

I think that kind of scenario might butterfly away the reformation entirely. A weaker church could mean the underlying reasons for dissatisfaction with the church over its corruption and opulence never materialize, or at least not as strongly as OTL. And maybe a decentralized Catholic Church would be a bit more open to reform.

 

[TickTock The Witch's Dead]

I think that kind of scenario might butterfly away the reformation entirely. A weaker church could mean the underlying reasons for dissatisfaction with the church over its corruption and opulence never materialize, or at least not as strongly as OTL. And maybe a decentralized Catholic Church would be a bit more open to reform.

And at best it’ll be limited to a few communities or a small sizable minority in some areas.

 

[Clandango]

Maybe try having it where some Churches are In Communion with Rome. I think that was part of why the Armenians got in well with the Crusaders. They had a huge army, were fighting Muslims, recognized the Pope, most importantly, were likely aimed at getting their homeland back. Meaning less of a need to divvy up conquests in the Levant with them. The question is, regardless or of whether or not Muslims are still in control of these lands, which of the many churches would be in communion with Rome. If Europeans are ruling the area you might see it where, like in the Holy Land and during the Reconquista, local churches and churchlands were given to the invading Europeans and the wealthy Catholic bishops. The local Christians were sometimes seen as heretics or collaborators.

 

[kholieken]

in Middle Ages, Archbishop trying to consolidate their powers, papacy make massive efforts to prevent that.

Also as @Simreeve has mentioned above, Catholic do have Patriarchies for Eastern Catholics. But they all under power of Popes.

Catholic Church always held "Primacy of Peter" doctrines despite opposition from Eastern Church

 

[spectrum]

I think that kind of scenario might butterfly away the reformation entirely. A weaker church could mean the underlying reasons for dissatisfaction with the church over its corruption and opulence never materialize, or at least not as strongly as OTL. And maybe a decentralized Catholic Church would be a bit more open to reform.

Perhaps, but decentralisation probably isn’t going to address the root causes of the Protestant movement: the overwhelming greed and opulence of some of the clergy, lack of religious books and discussion in local languages (although this is the most likely to fall by the wayside) and the selling of indulgence. Once the printing press becomes avalible and literacy becomes more widespread I would suggest that some form of reform movement will be demanded by the growing bourgeois.