WI; Julius Caesar still betrayed, but survives his assassination?

[JamesHunter]

This is a fascinating take.

While I'm of the school that Caesar didn't really want to be king any more than he really knew how to fix Rome's ills (evidenced by his attempt to adjust the Republic into something that could govern the empire, instead of slowly creating something new ala Augustus), I could see him still coming around to the idea.

After all, what's to stop him from thinking Roman senators killed their kings. Then, Roman senators tried to kill me even when I wasn't a king. It's not kingship that's the problem here, is it? That - plus a growing disregard for the Republic institutions that have failed him time and time again - could push him right into the purple.

You think Octavian fancies being a prince, or is Caesarion getting the nod?

Its possible like Octavian did he won't engage in official hereditary succession but designate the successor he feels is best suited. That cuts down on charges of Eastern despotism and also there is the issue that while in his middle 50's Caesar could easily go on another decade or even more. By then Caesarion (as OTL) will probably be at least co Pharaoh of Egypt and him then being promoted to Emperor is liable to see people thinking his Mum is pulling the strings. Given the affair doesn't seem to have been that popular that could lead to issues.

Also Cleopatra isn't going to be that young by then and Caesar may have set her aside if her looks have gone in her 30's...

 

[not livius]

While I'm of the school that Caesar didn't really want to be king any more than he really knew how to fix Rome's ills (evidenced by his attempt to adjust the Republic into something that could govern the empire, instead of slowly creating something new ala Augustus), I could see him still coming around to the idea.

I'm not sure Caesar was particularly attached to the idea of kingship either, but I think he was looking around for a way to hang on to his position of power and set himself apart from all the rest of the senators. He was also playing around with some religious imagery. I could see him trying to cast himself as a new Romulus, or a new Alexander, although I have serious doubts about whether it would work.

You think Octavian fancies being a prince, or is Caesarion getting the nod?

Octavian absolutely fancies being a prince! Caesarion is going to be the king of Egypt, not of Rome. I guess in theory Caesar could formally adopt him, raise him in Rome and make him his heir but Octavian is a better bet if only because he's already nearly an adult.

Its possible like Octavian did he won't engage in official hereditary succession but designate the successor he feels is best suited. That cuts down on charges of Eastern despotism and also there is the issue that while in his middle 50's Caesar could easily go on another decade or even more. By then Caesarion (as OTL) will probably be at least co Pharaoh of Egypt and him then being promoted to Emperor is liable to see people thinking his Mum is pulling the strings. Given the affair doesn't seem to have been that popular that could lead to issues.

I think if Caesar was going to make himself king he would also go for hereditary succession -- at least in Roman terms, so adoption would count. But I think you're right that Caesarion wouldn't be his Roman heir if he was going to be king of Egypt as well; it would be too much, and the Romans don't want a hellenistic king. That's part of why the affair with Cleopatra wasn't popular: it looked too much like Caesar was trying to make himself a king. Whereas now he's trying to make himself a totally different kind of king, I guess?

But I don't think he'd ditch Cleopatra as she got older -- except for political reasons. Doesn't Plutarch say that her appeal was 100% her charisma, not her looks?

 

[isabella]

I wonder how easy it would be to conceal the fact that he had survived though, and why any of his supporters would bother. Roman funerals for politicians were intensely public afffairs, and if he isn't having a big funeral for everyone to see no one will believe he's really dead. He could be out of communication for a while during his recovery, though, and that would create a lot of instability.

What it wouldn't do was help the assassins, at all. They are dead right away unless they flee from Rome: it isn't even a matter of getting Lepidus' legion to march into the city, there's no need for that. Caesar was incredibly popular with most of the ordinary people of Rome and they would be getting together into mobs and burning down the houses of the assassins as soon as they knew what had happened (as in OTL.) With Caesar still alive, even incommunicado, Antony has no need to make a compromise with them to let them back into the city and to take up the provincial positions Caesar had promised them. So there isn't even a civil war, really, they just get killed off as they get caught.

Too true

Yes, although in a way it's a problem for Caesar, because one of his big pieces of evidence for why he was better than his opponents in Pompey's camp was his practice of clemency on the Romans he conquered -- he had welcomed a lot of former Pompeians back into Roman political life, and some of them ended up in the conspiracy against him (as did some of his long-time supporters.) So is he going to turn around and go full Sulla on them? it kind of undercuts his whole political persona, and he can't be too open about taking sole power without losing some of his popularity in the city. If he cracks down too hard he might just face another attempt in a year or two.

Caesar was NOT stupid. His clemency was given only once and most of the conspirators had already been forgiven (for the others, well… they tried to kill him and that is not something who could be forgiven)... They would be all exiled and deprived of their possessions if they can escape the angry mob.

Oh, yes, I agree with all of you that the conspirators themselves are going to be killed, one way or another. They aren't getting clemency! I wonder about his relationship with the rest of the Roman political class, though, because the conspirators were drawn from both his old supporters and his old opponents. Can he trust anyone now? Can he work with the Senate at all? Would he even want to try? He knows about the guys who actually stabbed him, but what about their friends and relatives? What about the rest of the Senate? If Decimus Brutus tried to kill him, why should he trust Antony or Lepidus?

Antony was explicitly kept out of the Senate for preventing him from trying to help Caesar… And the likeliest option for Caesar’s survival is Antony’s arrival and intervention for saving him. I am not sure if Lepidus was there, but still he and the others senators can not be blamed for having been unable to react, specially as none of them was armed (as you could not bring any weapon in Senate)… Lepidus could have some troubles as his wife is an half-sister of Brutus and sister of Cassius‘ wife but his loyalty to Caesar was far too well know (and he would have been the first to lose his power with Caesar’s death) for the conspirators to try to involve him in their plot (same for the other brother-in-law Isauricus and their mother-in-law Servilia)

 

[wcv215]

I can't see the plotters winning this civil war. They weren't prepared anything. Them hadn't even in plans to kill any others as Caesar and assumed that situation would return to normal old time business. Caesar would has still popular support and almost all legions would are loyal for him.

Also, frankly Caesar’s done this dance already. The anti-Caesarians couldn’t win the civil war when they outnumbered him (repeatedly) and had Pompey. They’re going to get smashed into the dirt.

 

[JamesHunter]

I'm not sure Caesar was particularly attached to the idea of kingship either, but I think he was looking around for a way to hang on to his position of power and set himself apart from all the rest of the senators. He was also playing around with some religious imagery. I could see him trying to cast himself as a new Romulus, or a new Alexander, although I have serious doubts about whether it would work.



Octavian absolutely fancies being a prince! Caesarion is going to be the king of Egypt, not of Rome. I guess in theory Caesar could formally adopt him, raise him in Rome and make him his heir but Octavian is a better bet if only because he's already nearly an adult.



I think if Caesar was going to make himself king he would also go for hereditary succession -- at least in Roman terms, so adoption would count. But I think you're right that Caesarion wouldn't be his Roman heir if he was going to be king of Egypt as well; it would be too much, and the Romans don't want a hellenistic king. That's part of why the affair with Cleopatra wasn't popular: it looked too much like Caesar was trying to make himself a king. Whereas now he's trying to make himself a totally different kind of king, I guess?

But I don't think he'd ditch Cleopatra as she got older -- except for political reasons. Doesn't Plutarch say that her appeal was 100% her charisma, not her looks?

Possibly, I mean that bust said to be her does have an enormous nose (probably the least result of her family adopting Egyptian incest with a gusto) but there are still very good political reasons not to put a relative of a Pharaoh on the throne.

What might change is Egypt as Caesar has no reason to interfere with the status quo of protectorate and Augustus probably won't have an excuse without Cleo's mistake with Anthony.

Although like all King's inside the Empire the Pharaoh will become increasingly powerless as years go by. However the infusion of a bit of unrelated blood might buy the family itself some time especially as he doesn't have any full siblings...

 

[DarkDestroyer]

"Clemency? Clemency? After this...no. My affinity for pardoning has left much to be desired Antonius...send for Lepidus. Secure the city. Lepidus though...I will have my revenge against those who did this...and then my old friend...then..."

Caesar laid his head back down on the pillow and thoughts of Empire sang in his dreams...those fools just finished off any façade of the Republic and they didn't know it.

 

[pathfinder]

What if despite still being ambushed and stabbed by a mob of senators, Caesar clings to life, nursed back to health in seclusion by loyalists?

"The attempt on my life has left me scarred and deformed, but I assure you my resolve has never been stronger."

 

[DAv]

"The attempt on my life has left me scarred and deformed, but I assure you my resolve has never been stronger."

There was a point where Caesar wrestled with one of his assassins before the rest jumped in to kill him. Could have that as a divergence point as opposed to him being shanked and surviving.

 

[minhow]

Caesar will not forgive them this time, even if he looks like Sulla. These conspirators were already pardoned and they betray him in the first opportunity. Is unlikely that the plebs will be for the senate.

Is possible that it even kills the republic even more fast, now that the senate is considered untrustworthy. Caesar becoming a king isn't likely, but the senators could had pushed him to do it.

 

[Fire and shadow]

Are the conspirators aware of their failure in the immediate aftermath of the attack?

 

[Lalli]

Are the conspirators aware of their failure in the immediate aftermath of the attack?

If Anthony manage to internvene and carry Caesar away instead him climbing with his own feet, they might assume that he got serious injuries. It was probably pretty unusual that someone would survive from 23 wounds even without getting infections.