Basically what it says on the tin. Can the Great Lakes region develop agriculture independently? They have a lot of potentially good crops, such as wild rice. If so, how will civilisation develop?
WI: Great Lakes cradle?
- Thread starter Light Jammings
- Start date
I know that I mean independently developing agriculture a la Mesoamerica and the Andes.
Kaze
Banned
They did so...with Mississippian_culture and Adena_culture and https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hopewell_tradition
The problem is they did not survive long enough to create writing or survive first contact with Europe.
The problem is they did not survive long enough to create writing or survive first contact with Europe.
twovultures
Donor
I thought you meant the Great Lakes of Africa for a moment LOL.
There was a timeline that explored the POD of domesticating wild rice which should be good for you to look at.
As for what how these societies would develop, I don't think that we'd see centralized societies rising up in the wake of agriculture like in Egypt or Mesopotamia. The Eastern Woodlands are very wet and fertile, and there's plenty of places to grow rice, so the farming population would not be stuck in one river valley, creating a surplus labor force. I'd expect that we'd see a rapid spread of small-scale farming societies instead. OTL's Mississippian culture, for example, 'collapsed' as new varieties of corn (and maybe a changing climate) allowed maize farmers to move to new land and abandon dense settlements such as Cahokia. Centralized societies would arise eventually, but it would probably be millenia after the domestication event, and may not happen before contact.
There was a timeline that explored the POD of domesticating wild rice which should be good for you to look at.
As for what how these societies would develop, I don't think that we'd see centralized societies rising up in the wake of agriculture like in Egypt or Mesopotamia. The Eastern Woodlands are very wet and fertile, and there's plenty of places to grow rice, so the farming population would not be stuck in one river valley, creating a surplus labor force. I'd expect that we'd see a rapid spread of small-scale farming societies instead. OTL's Mississippian culture, for example, 'collapsed' as new varieties of corn (and maybe a changing climate) allowed maize farmers to move to new land and abandon dense settlements such as Cahokia. Centralized societies would arise eventually, but it would probably be millenia after the domestication event, and may not happen before contact.
There was the Eastern Agricultural Complex. It was further south than what you're suggesting, but I'm pretty sure some of the same plants grow wild around the Great Lakes.
Damn yeah that thread exists, didn’t get very far though (I swear, I’ll reboot it one day)
Wild rice is definitely the most traditional crop for an agricultural monoculture, but there’s also plenty of tubers (hopniss, wapato) that would be pretty easy to manipulate as well. Overall, lots of water based agriculture, you’d definitely see more riverine societies at the beginning. Further development depends on a lot and when this system originates really.
You better the fact that timeline dead was a big let down. I was very excited for it.
The Copper in the Upper Peninsula and, later, the iron in the Mesabi range of Minnesota could be a big boon, should this culture develop metal working. There are also clay deposits throughout the region as well. As for crops: corn was brought into the region in OTL - the furthest north corn field has been discovered in the region is near the border of the UP and Wisconsin, northeast of Marinette/Menominee. As others have pointed out, wild rice is native to the region and a good candidate for (further) cultivation. A weird through, cranberries are also native as well, and also grow in wet, boglike conditions: could we see cranberry and wildrice being cultivated using similar techniques? Not sure in the least how realistic that is, but it would be interesting.
Potatoes, for that matter grow well in the sandy soil of the northwoods: though I'm not it would be plausible for those to be traed that far north from their native habitat. Did the Mesoamerican cultures adopt the potato by trade withthe Andes?
Potatoes, for that matter grow well in the sandy soil of the northwoods: though I'm not it would be plausible for those to be traed that far north from their native habitat. Did the Mesoamerican cultures adopt the potato by trade withthe Andes?
IIRC, Mesoamericans never adapted the potato, and I think its impossible for the eastern woodlands to do so. Maybe this can be an alternative?
And I think that as aquaculture rises, we may see some altmestications? Domesticated minks, anyone?
twovultures
Donor
As near as I can tell in my research, no. The last time this was discussed, @Revachah pointed out that it's unlikely for potatoes to make the voyage that far north, as direct travel is exceedingly unlikely and potatoes are not superior to indigenous crops in the tropical land between North America and the Andes (they would have to be planted in the discontinuous savannah climates where cassava and sweet potatoes are already well established and better suited). This was very frustrating for me because I *want* it to be possible, but they are correct that it is unlikely.
The usual candidate we've discussed in the past are Moose as a pseudo-Water Buffalo.
For my part I think Mink are problematic for domestication because they're diet is predominately things like fish, birds, and crustaceans. The latter have some pest potential, but crayfish are still a great aquaculture candidate for Zizania fields and both of the first two are prime candidates cultivation in Zizania fields. Muskrats do have high potential for domestication in my opinion though. There's some potential for conflict between Muskrats and Zizania seedlings, but once the plant is established Muskrat's can be introduced to a stand without much conflict (much like ducks).
The Northeast has a quite a few good fish for aquaculture, for which Buffalo are fantastic as a carp analog, though there's certainly some other possibilities.
This could be good, a group in either India or Bangladesh have trained otters to herd fish into nets. Doubles their catch even with having to feed them fish.
And you can find videos on Youtube of a guy who trained a mink to fish for him.
Is this not similar to most of Eurasia? Europe had large-scale agricultural society but doesn't seem to have developed Egyptian or Mesopotamian-like civilizations, for example.
I guess, but colour me skeptical of its utility (and success) on a large scale. The bigger issue is that it isn't useful for aquaculture. In an aquaculture environment you don't need to herd fish, you just drain the pond and collect them. When combined in a polyculture with an aquatic plant like zizania (or rice OTL), you drain at harvest time and get two harvests; one rice, one fish. The issue with mink or otters is that they're eating your eventual meal (the fish and crayfish). Muskrats, when introduced after the crop establishes in the season, aren't diminishing zizania yields, instead they're eating other plants - weeds. They're opportunistic omnivores, so they'll take some snails and crayfish occasionally, but those are both pretty negligible as a whole. Mink and otter are also bird predators, unlike Muskrats, which means they can't be around your ducks who almost certainly will be in the paddies as well. The real problem with Mustelids isn't that they can't be useful, its just that they conflict with most forms of aquaculture that are likely to be practiced and their biggest niche (fur farming) is covered equally well by muskies.
While not in the great lakes I could see Wild rice getting domesticated further south by introduction from up north, let's say a migration of semi-agricultural copper migrating south after some event like global cooling coupled with a few successive population growth leading to an exodus to a ravaged Mississippian chiefdom or polity( often poor nutritional value and degrading soil fertility would lead to a cyclical nature of the chiefdoms). They may already have corn and other crops but having a harkening for a diet they've long since been used to they may attempt to introduce and minimally "cultivate" the rice in certain locations where possible. I think I remember hearing that wild rice was to an extent "managed" though given it's sheer abundance as well as seemingly perennial nature (it's technically an annual however more will tend to grow in the same area) there was no real motive to intensively cultivate it.
I imagine a more south-tolerant cultivar can emerge by hybridization with a more southernly relative Z. Aquatica as well as plain ole selective breeding. Honestly though Wild Rice has great potential for the Mississippi societies, the nutritional value of wild rice is much better than Rice we're familiar with Protein and B vitamins present which would undoubtedly help with as said before the Mississippian problem of their unbalanced diet. With a much more stable foundation as well as the massive continental Riparian trade networks we could see a level of complexity to match Meso-America at least if not the Xia or Shang dynasty China. I could easily see a similar culture of building flood/irrigation canals with Maize fields being slowly supplanted by a form of rice paddy.
It would most likely all go to hell as soon as Europeans show up though.
I imagine a more south-tolerant cultivar can emerge by hybridization with a more southernly relative Z. Aquatica as well as plain ole selective breeding. Honestly though Wild Rice has great potential for the Mississippi societies, the nutritional value of wild rice is much better than Rice we're familiar with Protein and B vitamins present which would undoubtedly help with as said before the Mississippian problem of their unbalanced diet. With a much more stable foundation as well as the massive continental Riparian trade networks we could see a level of complexity to match Meso-America at least if not the Xia or Shang dynasty China. I could easily see a similar culture of building flood/irrigation canals with Maize fields being slowly supplanted by a form of rice paddy.
It would most likely all go to hell as soon as Europeans show up though.