We know that Kate isn't really barren, as she had a daughter named Mary after she married Tom Seymour. So what if instead of with Tom, she had a child by Henry?

If she has a son (Henry? Owen?), that son will inherit should Edward die as scheduled. Would she be regent for her son, as she was during Henry's final French campaign?

If she has instead a daughter (Margaret? Catherine?), would this daughter be proclaimed Queen after Edward's death, as the only one of his sisters whose legitimacy would not be contested by either Catholics or Protestants? Or would her youth make Edward pass her over as well, and still leave the throne to Jane?

What happens to Mary and Elizabeth in these scenarios? Would Catherine still be allowed to remarry to Tom? Also, as Catherine wouldn't die of childbed fever, how much longer would her life be in this case?

We also know that Catherine was a devout Protestant, considering the incident of her near arrest due to accusations of heresy. What happens to Anglicanism in this case?
 
Last edited:
Assuming his OTL plans were his and not Northumberland's Edward is leaving her the throne.
What he'll do instead of his device is arrange the Recency council for her. This will likely include Northumberland at its head.
Whether Mary is able to rise TTL as OTL might depend on public perception of little Kate or Margaret or whatever she's called.
 
We know that Kate isn't really barren, as she had a daughter named Mary after she married Tom Seymour. So what if instead of with Tom, she had a child by Henry?

If she has a son (Henry? Owen?), that son will inherit should Edward die as scheduled. Would she be regent for her son, as she was during Henry final French campaign?

If she has instead a daughter (Margaret? Catherine?), would this daughter be proclaimed Queen after Edward's death, as the only one of his sisters whose legitimacy would not be contested by either Catholics or Protestants? Or would her youth make Edward pass her over as well, and still leave the throne to Jane?

What happens to Mary and Elizabeth in these scenarios? Would Catherine still be allowed to remarry to Tom? Also, as Catherine wouldn't die of childbed fever, how much longer would her life be in this case?

We also know that Catherine was a devout Protestant, considering the incident of her near arrest due to accusations of heresy. What happens to Anglicanism in this case?

The succession was clear that any child (of any sex) of Catherine and Henry would come ahead of his 'illegitimate' daughter's Mary and Elizabeth. A daughter offers more scope.

Catherine's remarriage was considered a bit hasty at the time and put her at odds with her Seymour in-laws - Catherine is I think just as likely to marry Thomas - she was in love with him.
In this scenario the Protector is going to be even more worried as his brother now has control of the Queen Dowager, her daughter the heiress presumptive and the Lady Elizabeth - not an ideal combination for the Protector - especially if Catherine dies as in otl.

If it is a girl then the council in 1553 will support her succession over Mary - Edward VI himself will have the assurance of a protestant succession and has no need to try and amend the succession as dictated by his father. For Northumberland, assuming Seymour still falls from grace, it's also ideal as it offers long-term power given the new Queen is a child.

Protestant support for a Protestant Elizabeth over Catholic Mary fades to nothing in the short term - Mary may well have Catholic support (and will feel aggrieved as she always believed herself to be legitimate) - whether its enough to gather support for a coup as in OTL against Jane Grey is worth considering.

Mary will be regarded as the rightful heir by much of Catholic Europe in this scenario - if she prevails and takes the throne by force - then the question is who she names as her heir - Elizabeth or Catherine Parr's daughter - both are Protestant but the child is young enough to be educated in the Catholic faith - Mary can also legally argue that the child is legitimate unlike Elizabeth.
 
There is no question of the legitimacy of Henry VIII's marriage to Catherine Parr, ergo Mary's only problem will be if it's a girl. If it's a girl, Mary is queen, nobody (but Tom Seymour) wants decades of a regency council - and the general populace will back Mary, as she's considered legitimate - born of good Queen Katherine of Aragon who was used and abused by Mary's father. It will be the Jane Grey Dudley scenario, except that the kid won't be executed. (Now, Tom and his wife, if they press the issue......another situation altogether.)

If Katheryn (as she spelled it) Parr has a son by H8, he's king and Mary won't contest it. But......if Parr weds Seymour, she'll have little say in her son's upbringing despite the mutual beliefs of her and the council - no one trusts Tom Seymour.
 
If Mary contests her sister's claim successfully, Catholicism is in potentially good shape. Young Kathryn is between 6-10.

Plenty of time to bring the girl into the true Church, set up a regency council for the girl and deal with Elizabeth.

Seduce her, make her one of us.
 
If the child is a boy, then the reforms of Edward VI are continued and the Church of England becomes more strictly Calvinist. There may be no religious difference with Scotland.
 
If the child is a girl, history will go the way it did OTL. E6's wishes will be just that and Princess Mary, adult daughter of Henry VIII and his first wife Katherine of Aragon will be MUCH preferable to years of a regency council. A son is the only thing that will keep Mary from the throne as Henry's sixth wife was legitimate and a son born to that union is legitimate beyond a doubt, even Mary will cede that.
 
If the child is a girl, history will go the way it did OTL. E6's wishes will be just that and Princess Mary, adult daughter of Henry VIII and his first wife Katherine of Aragon will be MUCH preferable to years of a regency council. A son is the only thing that will keep Mary from the throne as Henry's sixth wife was legitimate and a son born to that union is legitimate beyond a doubt, even Mary will cede that.

So with an heir(ess) in the form of little Maggie, would Mary still be inclined to marry Phillip?
 
I think Mary thought it her duty to wed and have an heir, so she'll still probably wed Pip. Who knows, with a legitimate heir in the form of "Maggie", maybe Mary will get preggers and pop one out. (No stress on having a legitimate heir.)

Mary will keep the child as the royal heir, as Mary viewed Elizabeth as a bastard and will probably get Parliament to pass a new law of succession which will leave Elizabeth out. Parr is hardly likely to object and will likely remain at court to be near her child. Parr may like Elizabeth, but who wouldn't (in the 16th century) want their child to be the next ruler of the country?
 
So who would Elizabeth and Margaret marry in this scenario? A Habsburg relation? France? Although the latter feels unlikely.
 

Marc

Donor
You all are assuming that Henry can actually get Catherine pregnant. Considering his significant health issues, impotence has to be considered as reasonable.
Now if you want to make him more likely to have a child by making him a healthier man, then you going to change the course of events by more than Tudor having a child with Parr.
 
Henry VIII's will and statute was clear - any child of his final wife was the legal heir in the event of Edward's death without issue - certainly morally Mary had a stronger claim being the King's eldest (and to Catholic eyes) legitimate daughter.

A minority will be far preferable to the Protestant council than Catholic Mary - whether they succeed and maintain the child on the throne is the issue - Edward VI was a rabid Protestant, and as dogmatic in his religion as Mary was in hers, he dictated the decision to subvert the succession in 1553 to remove the threat of a Catholic monarch - his council by enlarge agreed with him.

In this scenario the council will be more than happy to continue to exercise supreme power on behalf of their new sovereign - a minority is better than risking the axe under Mary - Crammer will trip over his robes to crown the child as quickly as possible.

Going for the child is a) she is the daughter of Henry VIII (and no-one could argue she wasn't legitimate), b) she has been raised in the Protestant faith (and is probably closer to Edward's faith than Elizabeth's more pragmatic Protestantism) c) She has the support of church and council, d) the law is on her side.

This scenario isn't the same as the Jane Grey scenario.

Effectively it entirely depends on how much support Mary can build to try and gain the throne - in OTL her right to succeed was not in question it is in this case.

This will be no smooth succession in either case.

6 July 1553 Edward VI dies - news of his death is not announced
7 July 1553 The Duke of Northumberland informs the Princess Catherine (who is in the care of her mother's friend Catherine Duchess Dowager of Suffolk) she is Queen.
The Lady Mary is summoned to London in the name of the council - Mary refuses and remains in the country believing it to be a trap and that her brother is dying
8 July 1553 Catherine is formally proclaimed Queen in London and in the major cities of England
9 July 1553 Mary arrives in East Anglia and writes to the council demanding they acknowledge her succession to her brother as "the elder daughter"
10 to 12 July 1553 Council in London call people to arms as Mary gathers a military force in East Anglia, the Lady Elizabeth is detained at Hatfield on orders of the council over concerns she might join her sister Mary, Queen Catherine is moved to the tower and writs summoning Parliament in her name are issued. The Bishop of London Ridley preached a sermon at St Paul's cross in which he affirmed Catherine was the lawful heir due to the bastardy of the Lady Mary and Lady Elizabeth.
18 July Mary's forces head for London
 
Yeah, the council was protestant, but if it's a daughter, the populace - which will include a lot soldiers - will back Mary as no one believed (except the in their heart of hearts Protestants) she was illegitimate. Nobody wants a decades-long regency unless there's a son involved. (E6's regency council couldn't hold itself together and executed his uncles.) A daughter? Fuck that, Mary's grown, she's been groomed to rule (in her earlier years) and she's the daughter of good Queen Katherine of Aragon. She'll get the backing and she'll be queen. Unlike Jane, Parr's daughter will be spared and kept as the heiress apparent until Mary weds and pops one out or dies. Sucks to be Elizabeth in this event.
 
Yeah, the council was protestant, but if it's a daughter, the populace - which will include a lot soldiers - will back Mary as no one believed (except the in their heart of hearts Protestants) she was illegitimate. Nobody wants a decades-long regency unless there's a son involved. (E6's regency council couldn't hold itself together and executed his uncles.) A daughter? Fuck that, Mary's grown, she's been groomed to rule (in her earlier years) and she's the daughter of good Queen Katherine of Aragon. She'll get the backing and she'll be queen. Unlike Jane, Parr's daughter will be spared and kept as the heiress apparent until Mary weds and pops one out or dies. Sucks to be Elizabeth in this event.

The convent for Elizabeth, then?
 
Honestly just get Elizabeth out of the country and out of the way. Marry her to one of the Hapsburg hanger-ons, like maybe the Duke of Savoy or Fadrique Álvarez de Toledo, future Duke of Alba or maybe someone who the Spanish need on their side, like an Italian Prince or someone in France. Regardless of who, Elizabeth is going to be sent out of the country quick smart, and Philip is probably going to try and push a betrothal between Don Carlos and little Princess Margaret.
 
The point of this is that we are imposing what happened in OTL when the council fell apart very quickly and the country turned pretty quickly to Mary.
Edward's device had three motivations - 1) to prevent a Catholic succession 2) to prevent a woman from ruling (his early drafts were clear and would have established male only succession - the throne was to pass in turn to the heirs male of his Protestant female relations - Frances, Jane, Catherine, Mary and Margaret Clifford - the assumed male to be governed by his mother until his 18th - it was amended to name Jane and her heirs male in the final draft) 3) To ensure the continuation of Edward's Protestant reformation.
In OTL
The majority of the notables who supported and agreed to Edward's device in his presence later claimed they'd been bullied to do so - however few protested at the time (they were of course later trying to persuade Mary of their loyalty to her).
There is debate over how much Northumberland influenced the device, but he certainly wished to carry out Edward's desires.
Northumberland made one fatal mistake - he failed to secure Mary's person before Edward's death.
Foreign diplomats in England were convinced Mary was more popular with the populace than Jane (which she was) but they also believed the council-backed Jane would be established as Queen.
The biggest problem facing the establishment of Jane was her succession was in direct contradiction of the law - she was legally only fourth in line (arguably she was third as Frances Brandon appears to have been excluded from Henry's will).
Mary's ultimate victory was a vindication of the law - she was the legal heir (irrespective of views of her illegitimacy) as established by her father's will (which had legal authority under Statute)
An important facet to Mary's popularity (and it applied to Elizabeth too - one of the problems facing Mary through her reign) that unlike Jane they were the daughter's of Henry VIII. Legitimacy aside people viewed them as having an absolute right to succeed over a more distant cousin.
The council got cold feet - several key nobles started to worry once Mary mobilized support in East Anglia - that saw some such as Arundal move to act to save their skin and proclaim Mary and arrest Northumberland.
However, many of them were already uncomfortable because of the legal position (had Edward's device and will been given Parliamentary approval as he planned then things might have been different), and concerns about the undue influence Jane's accession would give Northumberland (although after Somerset's fall he'd been careful not to try and dominate the council and was never Protector etc) and natural fear they might end up on the wrong side.
In TTL
The legal position is clearer and in a manner most would understand - the legitimate above the illegitimate. (In Henry's mind he was legally only married twice - to Jane Seymour and to Catherine Parr) - this isn't just a matter of the morality of setting aside Mary and Elizabeth - both were legally under statute illegitimate.
Edward VI will undoubtedly expect to be succeeded by his legitimate sister - it gives him two things he wants above all - continuing Protestant reform and prevents a return to the Catholicism of the past.
To courtiers in OTL concerned about the legal subversion of the succession in OTL - you have the King and his council acting to maintain the law.
They also are faced with choosing a young girl which allows them to retain authority and power for some time and someone who can be married to best suit their advantage or a woman approaching middle age, with a long-memory of those who have served her ill over the years, a woman who may not be able to produce an heir given her age leading to even further uncertainty.
It will in the end boil down to how Mary behaves - does she try and over set her father's will and motivate enough support to force the council and Northumberland to back down?
That is in my view debatable - Northumberland moved to defend the Channel from Spanish/Imperial support for Mary in otl - and was given assurances from France they wouldn't act in Mary's favour (Mary's accession would not appeal to them at all).
Her domestic appeal - a true daughter of the late King being kept from her rightful throne by a distant cousin backed by corrupt councillors - won't wash in ttl.
Also the succession is not a rushed thing suddenly dreamed up as the King realised he was dying - it has been established for six years - and has been apparent to everyone for that period - no complicated explanations of the new monarch's claim and right have to be given (as they were for Jane), there is no element of shock or surprise to offend people.
An interesting point about Mary - throughout her reign, her conviction God would give her an heir of her body not withstanding, she never moved to set aside her father's will or amend the succession - despite the best efforts of her most loyal advisors and the fact that she had relatives she much preferred, and one of them was nominally Catholic, she left Elizabeth as her heir - so her actions might be different in this tl.
England's soldiers (a disorganised rabble of veterans quite frankly from disparate backgrounds as England had no standing army as such) had just spent years fighting French and Scots Catholics they are not necessarily going to turn en mass to support Mary - many will but a lot won't.
England is probably at heart still majority Catholic (or Henrician Catholic) - Edward's Protestant zeal had prompted fear and anger - Mary will be seen as a beacon for halting that change - and it will generate support for her.
But very few revolts that come from the bottom of society win out - for victory Mary needs certain elements beyond the support of the masses at this period - she needs the country gentry and the higher nobility and she needs speed and a collapsing centre - I am not sure in this scenario she can quite get that.
Assumptions -
If Mary wins (and she may well succeed given a bit of luck) then she also faces a problem - she has subverted the succession for her own gain (whatever her moral rights are) - she will as in OTL reverse her illegitimacy - given a justification after the fact of her actions.
Secondly - she is now facing a reign with a succession crisis - she has deposed her sister and presumably placed her in the custody of devout Catholics but her sister is as stubborn as the rest of the family and has been raised a Protestant in her brother Edward's mold - it may not be easy to turn her into a devout Catholic and what of Elizabeth?
Who is the legal heir?
Mary has subverted things - the throne should pass to her next sister (but she can point out that Elizabeth is illegitimate) so the throne goes to the young girl she has supplanted - a rather awkward conclusion.
As her unpopularity grows (the Spanish marriage, failure to produce an heir, her growing religious zeal etc) rebels now have two heirs to focus their attentions on and one of them is too young to be accused of treason or disposed of - the survival of the two Protestant sisters is probably assured. Elizabeth is hard for Mary to marry off in this scenario - she only removes one threat - and Elizabeth's succession is now not assured to a relative of the Emperor isn't necessarily going to want to bite - a domestic marriage would present too much of a threat to Mary)
On Mary's death - all hell breaks loose - two intelligent women one in her mid teens the other in her twenties - both unmarried - which succeeds?
 
I do not think Mary will be able to win the Crown here as the legitimacy of her claim would be inferior to that of Jane in OTL as *Margaret was named and recognized as heiress by the wills of both Henry VIII and Edward VI.
 
If the new King managed 2 produce offpring does that not at least posptone the Union of the Englaish and Scottish thrones?

Does the line continue after that? Henri II of France had five sons and yet the Valois died out 30 years later.

Or, what if this King only leaves daughters behind? If Mary I and Elizabeth I never reign ITTL, would this king's daughter be certain to succeed him, or might the English decide to de facto embrace Salic principles and rally behind James VI?
 
Last edited:
Why are we talking about a king now? The scenario is still the same as OTL, Edward VI dying with all of his heirs (bar Darnley, but he doesn't count because he's a Scot) being female, except now he has three sisters instead of two, two of them either legitimate or illegitimate depending on who you ask but old enough to not require a regent, and one of them irrefutably legitimate but a minor which puts England through at least ten more years of a regency council.

Anyway, back to Mary's claim. Would her Imperial cousins actually meddle and help her claim the throne, even though IOTL they didn't actually do anything to help her with Jane?

And then there's another question. Norfolk and Gardiner are still in the Tower. What happens to them?
 
Top