Why are we talking about a king now? The scenario is still the same as OTL, Edward VI dying with all of his heirs (bar Darnley, but he doesn't count because he's a Scot) being female?

Wasn't Darnley only a Scot by blood? He was born at Leeds wasn't he? Which would make him an Englishman (or as much an Englishman as it was possible to be). Maybe Edward VI tries to get Margaret married to Darnley when he realizes he's dying. Although the countess of Lennox was a Catholic, so that would probably nix that idea. Although, with a POD in the 1540s, Darnley could just as easily be born female, and then we're really up a creek :p
 
Yes he was born in England - the ages would be good - Darnley was born in 1545 or 46 (there is a lack of certainty about his birth date) and lets assume Catherine Parr is delivered of her daughter sometime between April 1544 and the end of the year (within a year of her marriage or so). Incidentally i think Margaret is very unlikely for Catherine and Henry's daughter (he and his sister Margaret were at odds for much of his reign - while the name is his grandmother's and Margaret Tudor's recent death might make it obvious) I suspect they might opt for Catherine in honour of her mother or even Jane in honour of Henry's first wife of beloved memory etc.
Few stumbling blocks - they are far two young for a betrothal while Edward is alive - Darnley was raised a Catholic although in adulthood he moved towards Protestantism - that adds another problem.
If everything goes well - and Catherine becomes Queen Regnant on Edward's death - then I have little doubt that Margaret Lennox will be sniffing around and pushing her son forward - the match will probably appeal to English Catholics and might be seen as a solution and a check on the more rampant Protestantism espoused by Edward and probably his youngest sister. The couple are not going to be of age to marry until 1560 probably and of course in the December Francis II dies - so now Margaret Lennox has two choices to push her son towards - the Queen of England or the Queen of Scots.

Margaret Douglas' exclusion from Henry's will (despite the fact she was raised at the English court and was born in England) was that in the 1530s she disgraced herself with inappropriate relationships in the 1530s and it annoyed Henry (who probably thought her behaviour resembled her mother whose divorce from Margaret's father had so infuriated the King) - though she was at court and was one of Catherine Parr's ladies - she was a witness at Catherine's marriage to Henry.
 
Although, with a POD in the 1540s, Darnley could just as easily be born female, and then we're really up a creek :p

I like the way you're thinking.

The couple are not going to be of age to marry until 1560 probably and of course in the December Francis II dies - so now Margaret Lennox has two choices to push her son towards - the Queen of England or the Queen of Scots.

And both of them are her son's cousins, so unless Margaret wants to go full Protestant, she'd have to get a dispensation for her son to marry either of them.

If Darnley weds *Margaret instead of Mary, would he be crowned as joint ruler like William and Anne, or simply as king consort?
 
I like the way you're thinking.



And both of them are her son's cousins, so unless Margaret wants to go full Protestant, she'd have to get a dispensation for her son to marry either of them.

If Darnley weds *Margaret instead of Mary, would he be crowned as joint ruler like William and Anne, or simply as king consort?

Both are first cousin's once removed - from memory Mary Stuart was in such a rush in OTL to marry him she didn't bother to get a dispensation (always the devout Catholic Mary - when it suited her of course) - none would be required to marry the English Queen.
 
Darnley weds *Margaret instead of Mary, would he be crowned as joint ruler like William and Anne, or simply as king consort?

Possibly he does. England hasn't had a queen regnant since Matilda. However, Felipe and William had two things in their favour in pushing for joint sovereignty: they were foreign rulers so had a powerbase outside of England. William also threatened to take his soldiers withhim if they didn't grant him joint sovereignty. Darnley, OTOH, pushed for the crown matrimonial in Scotland and Mary refused to grant it to him. So there's no precedent in England since AFAIK Matilda's husband was not crowned alongside her.
 
There are choices - crown matrimonial was initially sought by the French from Scotland on behalf of Francis II - it was vigorously opposed as it would have meant even in the event of Mary's death without issue Francis would remain King of Scots and be able to pass the throne to his issue by another wife - again Darnley demanded it to no avail.

The other option is jure uxoris (ie exercising authority in right of his wife) this was more common - and had numerous international precedents - however, the only example we should probably follow is that of Mary Tudor - parliament insisted on numerous limits on Philip's right to act as King - he was to share power with Mary and would be King of England etc - but only for the life of his wife.

In the case of Catherine Parr's daughter becoming Queen Regnant at the age of 9 - I doubt by the time of her marriage she is going to be particularly willing to allow her husband control and again if its a foreign match then limits will be forced on the spouse and his role - if it were a domestic match then i would expect some debate over whether the man should even be titled King.

The issue is complicated by religious thought of course and a good Protestant woman should technically give way to her husband in all things lol.
 
The issue is complicated by religious thought of course and a good Protestant woman should technically give way to her husband in all things lol.

IDK Jane Grey was a good (if not vehement) Protestant and she refused to give Guilford the crown matrimonial when he demanded it. In fact, IIRC, didn't it lead to a bit of a marital spat when she told him that she'd make him a duke (Clarence and Kendal were both considered apparently), but not a king? Guilford felt that he should be king in a "what's mine is mine, what's yours is also mine" rather than a mere duke.
 
IDK Jane Grey was a good (if not vehement) Protestant and she refused to give Guilford the crown matrimonial when he demanded it. In fact, IIRC, didn't it lead to a bit of a marital spat when she told him that she'd make him a duke (Clarence and Kendal were both considered apparently), but not a king? Guilford felt that he should be king in a "what's mine is mine, what's yours is also mine" rather than a mere duke.

Oh yeah, that was a thing IOTL. But Jane was older and had a thing against people who wanted to control her, no thanks to her mother Frances. Would Margaret do the same?

Since we've already discussed what happens to the sisters when Mary gets the crown, in the scenario where Margaret gets crowned, what happens to Mary and Liz? The Tower?
 
Oh yeah, that was a thing IOTL. But Jane was older and had a thing against people who wanted to control her, no thanks to her mother Frances. Would Margaret do the same?

Since we've already discussed what happens to the sisters when Mary gets the crown, in the scenario where Margaret gets crowned, what happens to Mary and Liz? The Tower?

To be fair the idea that Jane Grey's parents were dictatorial and a couple of bully's is now largely discounted - it was based on a letter by Jane to her Roger Ascham - he himself was using it to promote the idea that gentle treatment better encourages children to learn - to be fair the letter could have come from any highborn bright Tudor child moaning about their upbringing. Ascham himself later wrote kindly of both Frances and her husband. There are other letters talking of Jane's piety and her closeness to her mother.
Frances herself is reputed to have opposed the Dudley match (on the grounds Jane could do better than a mere younger second son - her parents had previously thought to marry her to Somerset's heir before his fall).

Moving on - in the event Catherine Tudor succeeds to the throne as the law dictated - then Northumberland has to deal with the issue of her half sister's - Mary is heir presumptive followed by Elizabeth - if both accept their younger sister's accession - then I suspect both remain in the country on their respective estates after their sister's coronation - both were wealthy (Henry left them well provided for) - neither can marry legally without the consent of the council - both represent a danger if they are married outside the country.

Mary will almost certainly continue to attend and hear mass and enjoy life, Elizabeth will outwardly conform as she did under Edward - both will probably resent making way for the younger sister - both are too clever to make a major blunder in the short term.

Mary will probably prove a focus of Catholic discontent and rebellion as in this scenario as Cranmer is likely to continue to transform the English Church into a more Protestant one - imagine a Wyatt rebellion with Mary the alternative - assuming any rising is defeated then its the Tower for Mary and tighter restrictions on her... I think the Council will hold of putting her on trial especially during her sister's minority (presents many of the issues that Elizabeth did to Mary's council) - her health will probably decline and she may well die as in OTL before her sister is of age.

Edward VI was highly influenced by men like Cranmer in his religious focus - it is not unlikely given her background that his younger sister might be similar in tastes - and she is now in education terms under the control of those same men.

As to Queen Catherine's household well certain key figures will have significant influence I would expect Catherine Willoughby Duchess of Suffolk to be a key person about the Queen (she was very close to Catherine Parr in her lifetime, was a devout Protestant and despite her second marriage was widely respected) with her comes her stepdaughter's and granddaughters (the Grey's) and her own children by her second husband. (In OTL she went into exile under Mary and her children did well under Elizabeth )

Assuming Mary dies in the late 50s then Elizabeth is heiress presumptive until the Queen produces an heir - some might consider her to have more right - but with a Protestant undoubtedly legitimate Queen Regnant there is little incentive to replace one with the other...she may well be close to her half sister and might be visible at court - second in rank to the Queen etc. Privately she might resent making way for the younger but i think she'll live with it.

As to Elizabeth's marriage - if the council is desperate for a foreign alliance one might be considered and Elizabeth would be an option but a risky one if the husband is too powerful (once Mary is out of the way he might think his wife has more right to the crown) - I think it likely keeping her home is the sounder decision until the Queen is wedded, bedded and delivered of an heir.

The young Queen is going to be an attractive match - but a Catholic match would prove extremely difficult for her - if she has the Tudor pride (like all her siblings) then a match with someone too low born isn't going to attract either.
 
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