Bahram Chobin was a general from the Mihranid clan that attempted to revolt against Hormizd IV and restore the Arsacid Empire. Around 590, after achieving a victory against the Hephthalites, he revolted and seized the throne for a year, before being deposed by Vistahm and Vinduyih, who had killed Hormizd before Bahram had reached Ctesiphon, and placed Khosrow II on the throne for a year. Bahram defeated Khosrow near the Nahrawan Canal, and Khosrow would eventually manage to escape to Byzantium, where Maurice helped him get his throne back. What if he was caught and killed? How do the Great Houses respond? What happens in Armenia? How does Byzantium react? Could this butterfly the Muslim conquests?
WI; Bahram Chobin overthrows the Sassanids?
- Thread starter SunKing105
- Start date
A slight correction, Bahram of Mihran defeated the Celestial Turks, not the Hepthalshahs, who had already been a destroyed state mostly by the year 590 CE, they likely existed as a disorganized collection of allied states in the region of Ariana or Kabulistan and then also having sway over Zwambinar alongside the local proto-Pashtun peoples. As a rule, the Hepthalites ceased to be a fear for the Sassanids after 562 CE or so. Bahram of Mihran however did decisively defeat the Celestial Turk empire and then not only defeating them in the field, proceeded to pillage and raid their vassals and subjects in Central Asia for some time before returning to Iran.
Homrizd IV jealously then began to attempt to delegitimize his Marshal by excluding him and forcing him to dress as a woman. Traditionally, after the reforms of Kavadh I and Khosrau I, the Mihranid family had a monopoly upon the role of Marhsal of empire. This is why in a sense, Bahram was a Margave-King and a Marshal-Lord. Hormizd IV before using him, had attempted with his own Sassanid standing army drawn from the urban cities of the empire, to defeat the Celestial Turks, leading to immense failure, hence forcing him to call on his Marshal-House, that of the Arsacid cadet branch, the Mihrans.
Regardless, Khosrau II was supported by House Ispahbudhan and it was their idea to sneak Khosrau II into Syria and then seek aid from Byzantium. House Ispahbudhan rejected Bahram's claim because it would seem, they were jealous or that they felt themselves higher ranked. Ipsahbudhan was also an Arsacid cadet clan and seems to have felt its relation to the older house, stronger and more prestigious. They felt that it was their role to control the King Among Kings as a puppet and that Bahram attempting to assert a true royal lineage over the throne, was an affront to the rest of the Houses, especially theirs. House Karen attacked Bahram also, probably for similar reasons. Generally the custom was, that the Houses always will counter one that attempts to put themselves above the others, and makes this a taboo.
Since this is the case, they will seek to create a figurehead or nominate someone whose lineage is not in competition with their own. The Sassanid royal house was seen as low-tier in terms of lineage and lowly in standing as far as bloodlines went. As such, putting them on the throne was not an affront to the others, for the rest remained complete equals, whilst the low clan placed as Kings are simply given a role that none of the other Houses wish to take as it disturbs their way of life and also destroys their taboos surrounding not overtaking the others.
So, Bahram is in a bad position.... The only way for him to survive is to create a coalition and this is what he attempted to do in otl. Namely, he wished to form a coalition with the Bagratuni of Armenia and create a composite government with the lords of Armenia. Once he did this, it would seem that he may have targeted House Zik as his next partner and after this, proceeded to subjugate the other Houses forcefully, which if he defeats them in the field and the Sassanids are totally eradicated, they will agree to his terms and a new confederacy will be formed. A sort of Mihranid Confederacy will begin with the ruling two Houses being Bagratuni-Mihran and then the other Great Houses ruling their lands as they had always done. This Mihranid state would however have issues with Byzantium and will need to prove itself by raiding into the empire and also securing its hold over Aremnia.
Homrizd IV jealously then began to attempt to delegitimize his Marshal by excluding him and forcing him to dress as a woman. Traditionally, after the reforms of Kavadh I and Khosrau I, the Mihranid family had a monopoly upon the role of Marhsal of empire. This is why in a sense, Bahram was a Margave-King and a Marshal-Lord. Hormizd IV before using him, had attempted with his own Sassanid standing army drawn from the urban cities of the empire, to defeat the Celestial Turks, leading to immense failure, hence forcing him to call on his Marshal-House, that of the Arsacid cadet branch, the Mihrans.
Regardless, Khosrau II was supported by House Ispahbudhan and it was their idea to sneak Khosrau II into Syria and then seek aid from Byzantium. House Ispahbudhan rejected Bahram's claim because it would seem, they were jealous or that they felt themselves higher ranked. Ipsahbudhan was also an Arsacid cadet clan and seems to have felt its relation to the older house, stronger and more prestigious. They felt that it was their role to control the King Among Kings as a puppet and that Bahram attempting to assert a true royal lineage over the throne, was an affront to the rest of the Houses, especially theirs. House Karen attacked Bahram also, probably for similar reasons. Generally the custom was, that the Houses always will counter one that attempts to put themselves above the others, and makes this a taboo.
Since this is the case, they will seek to create a figurehead or nominate someone whose lineage is not in competition with their own. The Sassanid royal house was seen as low-tier in terms of lineage and lowly in standing as far as bloodlines went. As such, putting them on the throne was not an affront to the others, for the rest remained complete equals, whilst the low clan placed as Kings are simply given a role that none of the other Houses wish to take as it disturbs their way of life and also destroys their taboos surrounding not overtaking the others.
So, Bahram is in a bad position.... The only way for him to survive is to create a coalition and this is what he attempted to do in otl. Namely, he wished to form a coalition with the Bagratuni of Armenia and create a composite government with the lords of Armenia. Once he did this, it would seem that he may have targeted House Zik as his next partner and after this, proceeded to subjugate the other Houses forcefully, which if he defeats them in the field and the Sassanids are totally eradicated, they will agree to his terms and a new confederacy will be formed. A sort of Mihranid Confederacy will begin with the ruling two Houses being Bagratuni-Mihran and then the other Great Houses ruling their lands as they had always done. This Mihranid state would however have issues with Byzantium and will need to prove itself by raiding into the empire and also securing its hold over Aremnia.
I wonder, would Bahram have taken advantage of the aftermath of Maurice's assassination like Khosrau did? Apparently he was a great general, combine that with the proven skills of Shahin and Shahrbaraz, and maybe we could see Syria and Egypt fall years earlier than OTL, perhaps even before Heraclius' rebellion.
Would Maurice even be assassinated in this scenario? Maurice ordered the army to spend winter north of the Danube because it was believed to be the best time to campaign against the Slavs. This was also done a few years prior and the army also mutinied, but General Tatimer was able to calm the soldiers down and persuaded them to continue wintering north of the Danube. With Bahram alive, the eastern frontier would be much more of a concern to Maurice rather than the Danube, as Maurice wouldn't have peace with Bahram as he did with Khosrow. A revolt, particularly led by Phocas, would probably be unlikely. If the army revolts anyway, could they make it to Constantinople and kill Maurice and his family?
If the army revolts from the east, it would be interesting if Theodosius, Maurice's son, would seek help from the west rather than in OTL with Khosrow.
Why wouldn't Maurice have done peace with Bahram? I could see the latter ceding the lands Khosrau did IOTL in order for him to be able to focus on subduing the other Great Houses by force.
Actually, Maurice and Bahram could make peace, which would be the ideal scenario. Bahram in OTL wrote to Maurice asking for Maurice to not help Khosrow. Maurice's decision to help Khosrow in OTL was not at all a foregone conclusion. The Patriarch of Constantinople and the Senate even advised Maurice to not help Khosrow and not get involved, preferring to let Khosrow and Bahram fight it out instead. The Armenian historian Sebeos records that:
If Maurice chose to help Bahram instead of Khosrow, Maurice could have sent Khosrow in chains to Bahram and secured an alliance with him, perhaps similar to the OTL alliance between Maurice and Khosrow. This would certainly be interesting and would definitely be a TL I would love to see one day.
Actually, Maurice and Bahram could make peace, which would be the ideal scenario. Bahram in OTL wrote to Maurice asking for Maurice to not help Khosrow. Maurice's decision to help Khosrow in OTL was not at all a foregone conclusion. The Patriarch of Constantinople and the Senate even advised Maurice to not help Khosrow and not get involved, preferring to let Khosrow and Bahram fight it out instead. The Armenian historian Sebeos records that:
If Maurice chose to help Bahram instead of Khosrow, Maurice could have sent Khosrow in chains to Bahram and secured an alliance with him, perhaps similar to the OTL alliance between Maurice and Khosrow. This would certainly be interesting and would definitely be a TL I would love to see one day.
The issue I see is that Bahram of Mihran was attempting to actively form a coalition with the Bagratuni of Armenia and hence absorb the kingdom of Armenia. This side-talking of Bahram will lead to difficulties with the Eastern Empire no matter which way we run it.
Certainly. In OTL, the Armenians sided with Khosrow instead of Bahram, though that was probably because they suspected that Bahram was going to lose once the Romans got involved. While in this scenario, if Maurice chose to help Bahram, the Armenians whom Bahram was courting might side with Bahram, indeed. Therefore, it would be unlikely that Bahram would cede any Armenian territory. In my reply to @Vinization , I was suggesting that peace could be made between Bahram and Maurice if Maurice chose to help him. However, no peace is eternal and once Bahram's control over Iran is stable and more time passes, war between Iran and the Romans would eventually start again.
Maybe so, though are we sure that the Empire will permit the Armenians to do so? What if Maurice demands that Bahram relinquish claims to Armenia? It may be too much. Bahram also will need to find a way to reunite the realm once he has Khosrau I slain. I would suggest that he spares Vinduyih and Vistahm and only execute Khosrau II and perhaps marry one of his children or himself to an Ispahbudhan member. If the Ispahabudhan can be acquired as a coalition partner, then Bahram needs to move onto regaining the rest back under his coalition. House Karen and Suren are the most difficult to bring back into the fold. Suren however can be made to do anything with promises of an eastern campaign to conquer land from the Hepthalshahs. Karen is very tricky in that they are seemingly mad over anything and everything. Perhaps Bahram can appease them by abolishing every major reform since Kavadh I and thus affirm the coalition, attempting to turn the clock back to 378 CE or to the Arsacid state of 220 CE. This may be what is needed to appease everyone in time for Bahram to be able to bring the wars back to the Eastern Empire, the Celestial Turks and also to counter an emergent Arab conquering state to the south.
I feel it is not possible to maintain Eranshahr when at peace prolonged. Constant wars for loot and prestige are required so as to avoid internal issues and also top create a basis for the royal ideology. This is why Ardashir I immediately upon ascending and confirmation by the Great Houses, went to war in both directions of his realm. This is not by accident, it was required implicitly by his confirmation as king.
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well its 591 so maurice would be free to take care of the avars muhamed is alive so he can still found islam , i wonder how he would react to the lakmid sittution as al numan wanted his freedom in exchange to help him and al numan despite khoswrow wanting to reconect ties with them but failed.
but yeah with a pod of 591 all is not lost both empires are out of a war that lasted quite a long while and both have to deal with nomads i say if war does occur it doesnt occur till 610s as after defeating the avars maruice would want to concentrate on his empire and not attack meanwhile Bahram is a little more busy
Yes I agree, cleaning up the last century or so of Sassanid legal innovation will take Bahram some time and so would fulfilling let say, some campaign promises he will make to the other major Houses with regards to shoring up the eastern frontier region. Bahram however will have to wage war by around 613 CE and no later. His target can be anywhere with loot though, that could even be into the Indus Valley. Indeed, older Sassanid and Arsacid politck was very much amiable to eastern expansion, there is no reason that they cannot do this and then hand the lands over to its rightful rulers, the Suren House. They could also formulate the Hepthalshahs and others nearby as their vassals.
It should be noted, that I believe that Bahram possessed an army of around 15-20k warriors from House Mihran. House Karen may have had around 10k, Ispahbudhan, around 20k and the others somewhere below Karen and above 5k. They should be able to comprise a formidable force if they can get the Grand Coalition back into motion. It should be able to act well, indeed imo, it will be stronger than the force that Khosrau II sent forth against the Eastern Empire during the deposition of Emperor Maurice.
One issue that will need to also be discussed is the situation of Persia and Elam... Who will rule these lands exactly now that the Sassanids are no longer permitted? I would gander that they will be divided into a series of vassals made up of the lower nobility, priests and the free cities within Persia and Elam.
well there are easier targets then the byzantine empire of course would a deposition like phocas maybe not since in 593 he gave a similar thing Priscus then had used his own judgment and disobeyed Peter or any alt general could do the same and avoid this if war does occur i dont think it would end up like the 602 even though we say Heraclius won due to the persian division (and this is in many ways true) because Narces and other openly invited the sassanids and made no opposotion to them and other rebelled the most famous was the rebellion of Heraclius the elder
if war does begin and there is no striffe i think would devolp like the 572 -591 (the later phases since maurice was not as incompetent as Justin II) so a long war with persians pushing and looting but winning no descive conflict with ending with a minor victory or status quo ante bellum
so the roman persian war of 618(?) to 630s would be bad but not as bad as the 602 one if muhamed did found islam and things go similar in to that by alernitive 633 the romans and persians migth still be figthing or maybe the war just ended from a few months
so i dont think how would the islamic conquest go but the 2 empires have a bigger chance.
Great point. I remember reading somewhere, but cannot confirm, that Armenian soldiers formed a large part of the Roman army at this time, so Maurice may indeed want the rest of Armenia.
Of course. Maintaining the coalition with the Great houses is of utmost importance for a Shahanshah. Bahram would need to do so in order for his house to remain in control of Iran. Attempting to reverse the reforms under Kavad seems possible, though reversing the reforms since Hormizd IV would indeed be sensible. Bahram seems like he knew what he was doing in OTL, so maybe something like this was one of his plans?
Going to war with the Romans in the future does seem likely. Perhaps capturing Roman territory east of the Euphrates and Roman-held Armenian provinces would be the goals of a future conflict. So, the provinces of Mesopotamia, Osrhoene, Armenia IV and part of Armenia I. No need for Khosrow II-style restoration of Achaemenid borders which were the dreams of a madman.
As long as any potential successes don't go straight to his head...