WI:Anne Boleyn dies 1532.
- Thread starter Wildcard F. Kennedy
- Start date
An interesting idea, to be sure, but I wonder if Henry'll spring for the cash needed for the dowry to a foreign ruler's heir? Beja or someone who is kind of less important, and so can receive Mary with a smaller dowry. The French would take said smaller dowry as an insult. As to the question of issue/widowhood, François might decide to have the marriage between the duc and duchesse d'Orléans annulled (since Caterina was still childless, and the pope who had married her to the French prince was dead (this was contemplated OTL - though at a later date, caused a bit of a panic in Diane de Poitiers since she could "control" Caterina, whereas a foreign princess would be less accomodating) and marry Mary to Orléans as a way of ensuring that she stays in France. If this doesn't happen, Angoulême is too young and Mary would have to wait, so she likely goes home to Henry as her aunt/namesake did. Any children (son or daughter) gets left in France, since that child is technically heir to the duchy of Brittany. François wouldn't want the little duchess sitting in England where Henry could use her to marry one of his own offspring, and then later claim France through her.
Thank you. But if Francis ignores the technicality and/or awards the duchy to another son? But I don't see H8 doing this unless he's already got a son, do you? By the time (if) he has a son, Dauphin Francis could well be dead.
July – September 1533
Suffolk had been right. It had not taken as long as Henry VIII had predicted (“I shall never love again, Charles.”) The lady in question was Madge Shelton, one of the Lady Anne Boleyn’s ladies to make the switch to Princess Mary’s entourage (unlike her younger sister Mary). She was technically still one of the Princess’ ladies, but Mary made sure she was never in Mistress Margaret (Madge) Shelton’s company and had tried, without success, to get her father to allow her to dismiss her for “immoral behavior”. Everyone had thought Henry would go for Madge’s younger sister Mary, but Mary had a sweetheart (Thomas Clere, a friend of Henry Howard) who was saving for their marriage and wasn’t interested in being the King’s sweetheart. Rumors were already swirling that Madge was pregnant and then the Princess would be able to dismiss her with cause.
Henry had not listened to Cromwell – who had advised the King to wed Mary to the Dauphin and possibly unite England and France. Suffolk knew that would happen when he heard Cromwell approach the king with the proposal. Cromwell’s proposal implied that Henry would have no other children; and with Madge Shelton likely to give Henry another bastard at the end of the year, that didn’t go over well with the king. The Dauphin was out, as was James V, the Dauphin because of Cromwell’s approach, James because of the relationship between Henry VIII and his thrice-wed sister. But Poland lucked out, thanks to Princess Mary, who recommended her cousin, Lady Margaret Douglas. Henry agreed with his daughter, this would make ties between the two kingdoms; the only drawback for Henry was that he was dowering two brides. Luckily, Sigismund the Old wanted a bride more than he wanted a huge dowry; he had already allotted properties for his future daughter-in-law and his wife wanted a foreign bride rather than a ‘home-grown’ woman for her son. The King of England’s niece suited her purposes just find.
It was obvious in late August that Madge was pregnant, but when Sir Henry Norris stepped up and married her, he became the first Baron Norris. “A wedding present for a man who admits his sins, to show that I forgive him,” was the justification the King gave when his daughter asked him why he was rewarding sin. The newlyweds went to Norris’ home in Rycote where his three children (from his first wife, Mary Fiennes) lived, under the stewardship of one of his late wife’s cousins. The Viscount would return to court within a month, while Madge remained in Rycote. She would birth to her daughter Anne (for Lady Norris, her husband’s mother) at the end of November, but would not see court again until the following year..
On the first of September Lady Margaret Douglas left for Poland with a retinue that included Lady Mary Carey and Viscountess Rochford, both of whom were to return in the spring, along with the other English ladies in according to the marriage contract. She wasn’t happy that none of her English ladies would be remaining, but was assured in a letter from her mother that she would learn to love her husband’s people and would be the mother of a King. She was less than convinced and attempted to talk the king into letting either Lady Mary Howard, Philippa or Katherine Basset remain with her. The King (and Princess Mary) both promised to write for the retention of one (or both) of the Basset girls, but the King insisted that Lady Mary Howard return with the other ladies.
Suffolk had been right. It had not taken as long as Henry VIII had predicted (“I shall never love again, Charles.”) The lady in question was Madge Shelton, one of the Lady Anne Boleyn’s ladies to make the switch to Princess Mary’s entourage (unlike her younger sister Mary). She was technically still one of the Princess’ ladies, but Mary made sure she was never in Mistress Margaret (Madge) Shelton’s company and had tried, without success, to get her father to allow her to dismiss her for “immoral behavior”. Everyone had thought Henry would go for Madge’s younger sister Mary, but Mary had a sweetheart (Thomas Clere, a friend of Henry Howard) who was saving for their marriage and wasn’t interested in being the King’s sweetheart. Rumors were already swirling that Madge was pregnant and then the Princess would be able to dismiss her with cause.
Henry had not listened to Cromwell – who had advised the King to wed Mary to the Dauphin and possibly unite England and France. Suffolk knew that would happen when he heard Cromwell approach the king with the proposal. Cromwell’s proposal implied that Henry would have no other children; and with Madge Shelton likely to give Henry another bastard at the end of the year, that didn’t go over well with the king. The Dauphin was out, as was James V, the Dauphin because of Cromwell’s approach, James because of the relationship between Henry VIII and his thrice-wed sister. But Poland lucked out, thanks to Princess Mary, who recommended her cousin, Lady Margaret Douglas. Henry agreed with his daughter, this would make ties between the two kingdoms; the only drawback for Henry was that he was dowering two brides. Luckily, Sigismund the Old wanted a bride more than he wanted a huge dowry; he had already allotted properties for his future daughter-in-law and his wife wanted a foreign bride rather than a ‘home-grown’ woman for her son. The King of England’s niece suited her purposes just find.
It was obvious in late August that Madge was pregnant, but when Sir Henry Norris stepped up and married her, he became the first Baron Norris. “A wedding present for a man who admits his sins, to show that I forgive him,” was the justification the King gave when his daughter asked him why he was rewarding sin. The newlyweds went to Norris’ home in Rycote where his three children (from his first wife, Mary Fiennes) lived, under the stewardship of one of his late wife’s cousins. The Viscount would return to court within a month, while Madge remained in Rycote. She would birth to her daughter Anne (for Lady Norris, her husband’s mother) at the end of November, but would not see court again until the following year..
On the first of September Lady Margaret Douglas left for Poland with a retinue that included Lady Mary Carey and Viscountess Rochford, both of whom were to return in the spring, along with the other English ladies in according to the marriage contract. She wasn’t happy that none of her English ladies would be remaining, but was assured in a letter from her mother that she would learn to love her husband’s people and would be the mother of a King. She was less than convinced and attempted to talk the king into letting either Lady Mary Howard, Philippa or Katherine Basset remain with her. The King (and Princess Mary) both promised to write for the retention of one (or both) of the Basset girls, but the King insisted that Lady Mary Howard return with the other ladies.
If Catherine of Medici's marriage is annulled, she can marry Antoine who is more fertile than her first one.
Ferdinand Habsburg is going to be seriously enraged-his oldest daughter Elizabeth was destined to become Queen of Poland from the moment of her birth.
Who is "she"? Mary or Catherine. I'm confused because Catherine was wed to Henri, the second son of Francis I. Jeanne d'Albret was married to Antoine.
Bona (Sigismund II's mum) was opposed to the marriage, which is why the betrothal wasn't finalized until 1538 when it was supposed to happen in 1533.
I've done Elizabeth a favor. She's 10 years old at this point, sickly and suffers from epilepsy. Can you blame Sigismund the Old & Bona for wanting a healthier bride for their son? I'm doing this because it will allow Sigismund II to have children before the venereal disease (if it was that) makes it impossible for him.
I meant to say that Catherine of Medici can marry Antoine de Bourbon like Eleanor of Aquitaine married Henry II..if Catherine's marriage is annulled...if that happened her reputation will be like Lucrezia Borgia.
If Catherine de Medici is repudiated for childlessness and her marriage to Henri II annulled, Antoine de Bourbon ain't gonna want her. He needs an heir, too.
October 1533
The Duke of Suffolk became a widower the first week of the month; his wife – the King’s younger sister and former French Queen – died after a long, lingering illness. The King excused him from court activities for six months. Princess Mary attended the services on behalf of the royal family and her father received from King Francis I another betrothal proposal on behalf of the Dauphin for Princess Mary. Francis urged them to unite their houses against the Hapsburgs, whose lust for power was unquenchable.
Dorothea of Denmark (whose dowry was less than impressive) had been proposed as a bride for Henry; she had a good claim to the throne of the country and was unmarried, having been waiting for James of Scotland and others to make up their minds while her sister was supposed to be going to the Italian states. Cromwell proposed that His Majesty make a statement with his marriage and chose one of the daughters of John III, Duke of Cleves – a house with known reformist sentiment – to prove that Henry ruled in England, not the Pope. While Henry mused over Dorothea, he laughed off the Cleves suggestion, pointing out that Cromwell was encouraging him to commit heresy along with a marriage. No fool, Thomas Cromwell laughed along with the King.
The Duke of Suffolk became a widower the first week of the month; his wife – the King’s younger sister and former French Queen – died after a long, lingering illness. The King excused him from court activities for six months. Princess Mary attended the services on behalf of the royal family and her father received from King Francis I another betrothal proposal on behalf of the Dauphin for Princess Mary. Francis urged them to unite their houses against the Hapsburgs, whose lust for power was unquenchable.
Dorothea of Denmark (whose dowry was less than impressive) had been proposed as a bride for Henry; she had a good claim to the throne of the country and was unmarried, having been waiting for James of Scotland and others to make up their minds while her sister was supposed to be going to the Italian states. Cromwell proposed that His Majesty make a statement with his marriage and chose one of the daughters of John III, Duke of Cleves – a house with known reformist sentiment – to prove that Henry ruled in England, not the Pope. While Henry mused over Dorothea, he laughed off the Cleves suggestion, pointing out that Cromwell was encouraging him to commit heresy along with a marriage. No fool, Thomas Cromwell laughed along with the King.
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the real problem is medical advances tell us that but back then.....it was always the woman's fault.
Would love to see Henry taking Dorothea and her OTL fertility pattern repeating. I think I read somewhere she did have reproductive problems of a sort, but IDK if she was born with these or picked them up later.
Christina is the one who is usually mentioned, but Dorothea was the eldest.....and, of course, was childless OTL, despite a very happy marriage. Which makes her very tempting....(I know, I'm evil that way).
Not sure if liking a post where you call yourself evil is the done thing, but oh well.
Kristina is usually mentioned for Henry post-Jane Seymour IIRC, but the fact that Kristina married first (despite being the younger daughter), and that she was the one usually offered - although AFAIK, her prior marriage to the duke of Milan played a big role in some of her suitors' eyes - like the French wanting to marry her to the dauphin or the duc d'Angoulême.
Also, the duke of Milan (Francesco II Sforza) originally hoped for a match to Dorothea, and was furious when he realized that, like Jacob, he'd been tricked into marrying the sister of his intended.
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Karl V writes to Marie of Hungary, saying that he'd heard that the duke of Milan was a bit strange in the head, and that he deliberately arranged the marriage with Kristina, since she is still under the age of nubility? so that if the marriage is childless, the duchy of Milan will fall into the emperor's hands. That said, Karl also writes, somewhat vulgarly, to his sister, that "I fear it will be rather "too big" for the duke, more so than our niece".
But equally fascinating is the fact that in her widowhood, Dorothea made her home in Neumarkt and became a sort of "protectress" of Lutherans against the radical Calvinism of the Elector Palatine.
But no one is stopping her to find a groom who she can use to prove her case..that she is not the one who is not the infertile one...in that case that man would be lucky.
Antoine wants a throne. Jeanne gets him one. Catherine doesn't and she's "barren" and has been repudiated for it, she's not marrying except some poor guy who owes her father/brothers a favor or money. That's what happened back then. The de Medicis weren't royalty.
Except I'm not doing that in this TL. But I am taking suggestions for Henry VIII's next wife. In 1534, they must of marriageable age (12), Dorothea is first on the list.....when I get a listing of sufficient diversity, I'm gonna pull out the gaming dice.......and roll.
With those dice, who knows what'll happen next? Maybe Dorothea won't be so childless after all...
Edit: Maybe the woman who said if she had two heads, she would give one to Henry. Not an exact quote...
Also, I'm forgetting who she was, but she might not be so hostile to marrying Henry this TL, as Anne died by disease here, altering Henry's reputation just a little...