WI:Anne Boleyn dies 1532.

Discussion in 'Alternate History Discussion: Before 1900' started by Wildcard F. Kennedy, Aug 16, 2017.

  1. vandevere vonhooligan

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    I was locking on her name...

    Anyway, there are at least a few marriageable women out there. Has Marie of Guise been snapped up by the Scots yet?
     
  2. desmirelle director of admissions, brookview sanitarium

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    Currently, I have 4 foreign bridal candidates and some English ones.
    Dorothea of Denmark, b. 1520, daughter of King Christian II of Denmark and Norway & Isabella of Burgundy. OTL wed Frederick of the Palatine 1535.
    Eleanora d'Este, b. 1515, daughter of Lucrezia Borgia (daughter of Pope Alexander IV) and Alfonso I d'Este, Duke of Ferrera. OTL nun.
    Maria of Portugal, b. 1521, daughter of King Manuel I of Portugal & Eleanor of Austria. OTL never wed.
    Margaret of France, b. 1523 (yes, I know we'll have to wait a bit for her), daughter of King Francis I of France and Queen Claude. OTL wed Duke of Savoy in 1559.

    The English Roses:
    Jane Seymour, b. 1508...OTL, you know her story
    Catherine Willoughby, b. 1519, OTL she was betrothed to the sickly Earl of Lincoln and wed Charles Brandon in September 1533.
    Mary Howard, b. 1519, OTL she wed Henry VIII's bastard son Henry Fitzroy and never remarried after his death.
    and a trio of sisters - Philippa (b. 1516), Katherine (b. 1517), and Anne (b. 1521) Basset. OTL, Philippa is little known, while Katherine & Anne were promoted as ladies in waiting for Queens Jane & Anne & (I believe) Catherine Howard.

    Anyone else?
     
    Last edited: Oct 12, 2017 at 3:12 PM
  3. Kellan Sullivan Well-Known Member

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    I remember Anne Boleyn refused the petitions of Lady Lisle (the Basset girls' mother who remarried to Arthur Plantagenet, bastard son of Edward IV) to allow them to serve her as ladies-in-waiting. I can't remember if this was a personal pique on the part of Anne or there were greater cogs at work; Jane allowed two of them (Katherine and Anne) to serve as her ladies-in-waiting. But there was some politics involving Honor, Lady Lisle being of the "wrong" side of religion (Catholic in Protestant Calais), as well. So, whether that might transfer to her daughters IDK.

    Another rose, just a pity she's betrothed/married already would be Anne Bourchier, 7th Baroness Bourchier - only child of the earl of Essex, a cousin of Elizabeth of York.

    My money's on Dorothea or Eleonora (for sheer fun and games); Marguerite Henry rejected the offer with her in 1538/1539 since "the French king's daughter is too young for me", I can't see him agreeing to it in 1533/1534.

    Jane Seymour - the scandal touching her famiyl thanks to her dad's carryings-on with his daughter-in-law are still reasonably fresh, which makes her an unlikely candidate for queen consort. Plus, no Anne to make Henry want the "mild and pale as milk" Jane, also counts against her. Most likely, Henry takes an interest in her as a mistress and then marries her off to Dormer (as she was originally betrothed - thereby butterflying the duchess of Feria) when he tires of her.

    Catherine Willoughby - an interesting choice. Her mother was one of Katherine of Aragon's ladies who had come with her from Spain, and there were rumors that Henry was going to put aside Katherine Parr and marry the dowager duchess of Suffolk, so could be fun. Firstly to see who Brandon weds instead, and secondly if her sons (like the two she had by Brandon) still die young and the crown devolves to the Lady Mary and her kids.

    Mary Howard - not so sure. Perhaps if her mother had been her father's first (Anne of York) rather than his second (Elizabeth Stafford) wife. But with no Anne to push for the match, the Howards might be left hanging here.

    Who might Fitzroy be wedding in this scenario? If at all. I read once that he had two bastard daughters (I know he was prohibited for consummating his marriage due to his health, but I was at school with kids who had no problem having sex at the same age)
     
  4. Wildcard F. Kennedy Well-Known Member

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    All very interesting. Do keep the good work flowing.
     
  5. kasumigenx Well-Known Member

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    Perhaps a better scenario for Catherine is that she is the second wife of Constable Bourbon instead of her OTL husband.
     
  6. desmirelle director of admissions, brookview sanitarium

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    Since I'm doing England, I'm gonna leave Catherine de Medici and Henri to their own devices for now.
     
  7. desmirelle director of admissions, brookview sanitarium

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    Kellan - the Queen Anne I'm referring to is Anne of Cleves, who managed to end up the King's sister after being his wife (instead of doing it the way the hillbillies do it, the other way 'round):p
     
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  8. Kellan Sullivan Well-Known Member

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    :winkytongue:

    My bad. But on the topic of Anne Boleyn, why did she refuse to accept them into her household? Was it their mom's Catholicism? were they Katherine supporters? Or was it just a personal dislike? Or some combo of all of the above
     
  9. desmirelle director of admissions, brookview sanitarium

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    I think she had a limited number of women she got along with and who wants another beautiful girl around when you're getting by on your wits??? It was also politic not to take the step-daughters of guy running Calais when Anne B is wanting to play nice with France. It could be that Honor (their mother) didn't like Anne B, that would be a biggie. I first heard they applied for places under Jane.....(which would make sense if Honor was pro-Catalina).
     
  10. desmirelle director of admissions, brookview sanitarium

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    And thank you to @Kellan Sullivan for providing what I wanted - an analysis of the choices!
     
  11. desmirelle director of admissions, brookview sanitarium

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    Marie of Guise wed first husband in August 1534; but with offering his daughter Margaret (and probably hoping for a double marriage - Mary to the Dauphin, Henry to his daughter), I don't see King Francis I offering her.
     
  12. desmirelle director of admissions, brookview sanitarium

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    Also looking at:
    Hedwig Jagiellon b. 1513, daughter of Sigismund I & first wife Barbara. OTL wed in 1535 to Elector of Brandenburg. Once considered for Queen of Sweden. In this TL, her half-brother Sigismund II weds Lady Margaret Douglas.
     
  13. desmirelle director of admissions, brookview sanitarium

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    First round: Jane, Katherine, Mary Howard, Margaret of France and Catherine Willoughby are out. That leaves Philippa Basset(the dice love this girl) the only Englishwoman in the running and Dorothea, Hedwig, Eleanora and Maria for the foreign candidates.
     
  14. desmirelle director of admissions, brookview sanitarium

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    I don't want to wed Charles Brandon to Catherine Willoughby this round, I'm thinking of his son lasting a bit longer......
     
  15. desmirelle director of admissions, brookview sanitarium

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    November 1533

    The King had become mildly interested in Philippa Basset, who had returned home from Lady Margaret’s train early because of homesickness. She was now one of his daughter’s prettiest ladies, and was the same age as Princess Mary. He flirted, but she was shy and merely blushed furiously whenever the King spoke to her. When the Duke of Norfolk pointed out that she, like Princess Mary, was a maiden well-sheltered, the King’s interest was piqued, but he soon tired of her maidenly ways – Jane Seymour (another of Anne’s former ladies) was more talkative, although equally determined not to submit to any man before marriage.

    No less than the Pope himself suggested the Lady Elearnora d’Este, granddaughter of Pope Alexander IV by his daughter Lucrezia. She was residing in a convent, but had yet to take vows, although she had supposedly indicated she believed this to be her vocation. She was extremely musical, according to reports Henry received and was alleged to be as beautiful as her mother. King Sigismund I put forward his daughter Hedwig as a candidate and Portugal offered Maria, sister of King John III. This meant Henry had four foreign ladies to consider (he’d dismissed Margaret of France out of hand, not only for her young age, but because Francis had hinted that it was contingent upon Mary wedding his son the Dauphin, which Henry had already ruled out.)

    The Dowager Princess of Wales, Katherine, was ill and Princess Mary begged her father for permission to visit her mother. But the King denied it, because he needed a hostess for the Christmas festivities and promised his daughter that in January, she could go to the convent and visit her mother. The Mother Superior of the Convent wrote to both King and his daughter that the illness seemed to be of spirit as much as of the body. “Princess Katherine has been much depressed since the Holy Father’s ruling on her marriage. She still believes in her heart that she is King Henry’s wife.”
     
    Last edited: Oct 14, 2017 at 6:56 PM
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  16. desmirelle director of admissions, brookview sanitarium

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    December 1533 – January 1534

    The season began with the King sending one of his daughter’s ladies – Catherine Willoughby - as representative for the Princess to her mother the Dowager Princess of Wales, Katherine of Aragon (as Henry always referred to her). Henry was more than happy to send the daughter of the Dowager Princess of Wales’ closest friend from Spain to the convent. Catherine, who had been the ward of Charles Brandon, had come to court upon the death of the Duchess. She was educated, pretty, and of the opinion that the King should not have put aside his first wife (if Cromwell was right). It sounded right for the god-daughter of Katherine of Aragon.

    King John III of Portugal and the King of England were deep in diplomatic negotiations for the marriage of Infante Luis, Duke of Beja to Princess Mary. They’d already set jointures (in Portugal and England), settled the issue of dowry and were currently stuck on what Luis should be called if God chose not to bestow any more children on the King of England. Henry bristled at the thought and it took all of Thomas More’s eloquence with words to rephrase the English King’s initial comment on John’s proposal that Luis be King.

    The New Year brought portraits of Dorothea and Hedwig (by Holbein), a court painter’s portrait of the Infanta Maria of Portugal and a pair of sketches by Leonardo da Vinci of Eleonora d’Este at the Pope’s express request. The letter hinted a picture might follow if Henry gave assign of encouragement. Eleonora was by far the most attractive from the portraits and that alone interested him – the fact that her grandfather was Pope Alexander IV played no part in his interest, he assured Cromwell. In mid-January, the Duke of Suffolk returned to court, to undertake a mission for the King (starting at the Vatican, he was to assess the women’s beauty, musical talent, conversational ability, etc. for the King – Brandon knew the King’s tastes better than most); but also to take his mind off his recent bereavement.
     
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  17. desmirelle director of admissions, brookview sanitarium

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    Charles Brandon, beautiful women, what could possibly go wrong?
     
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  18. desmirelle director of admissions, brookview sanitarium

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    Who better to know than me (that I'm evil that way)?

    (Meant to answer the other day, but the phone rang.....)
     
  19. vandevere vonhooligan

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    Yeah, but Brandon's not stupid either. He might hornswaggle his way into marrying Henry's sister. But he would never try to marry a potential wife for Henry. That way lies suicide...
     
  20. Wildcard F. Kennedy Well-Known Member

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    Very true. There's also nothing to gain by doing so. Being best friends of the king gets you favor, and did advance him politically. It could be argued that Brandon sought the kings sister as a way of advancing even further politically. Stealing the kings potential bride out from under him, sinks you politically at the very least.