Elizabeth would be ahead of Jane.
Only if Edward touch his father’s succession. As here that one will exclude Mary and put Elizabeth behind him, then Frances Brandon and her children and her niece I dioubt who Edward would feels that necessity
What if Henry VIII's children by his first three wives had had children/gotten married?
- Thread starter noturaveragejoe0316
- Start date
1559:
May: Edward VI, 21 , marries Elisabeth of Valois, 14, by proxy in France and officially in England later in May. The marriage contract states that the marriage will not be consummated until Elisabeth is 16 years old, in April of 1561.
July: Henri II of France, 40, dies in a jousting accident, and is succeeded by his 15 year old son, Francois II, who married Mary, Queen of Scots, 17, the year prior.
September: Catherine of Palatinate-Neuberg, 18, the eldest daughter of Lady Mary Tudor, 43, marries Johann Friedrich of Saxony, 22, the nephew of Lady Mary's ex-stepmother, Anna of Cleves
1560:
February: Jane Grey, 23, gives birth to her third child and first son, John Dudley, named after her father-in-law. He now precedes her and her daughters in the line of succession
February: Catherine of Palatinate-Neuberg, 19, gives birth to her first child, Johann Friedrich, named after her husband
June: Lady Katherine Grey, 20, marries Edward Seymour, 21, in secret. When their cousin, the 22 year old King, finds out he is furious and banishes both of them from court
December: Francois II of France, 16, dies of an ear infection. Although not known immediately, his widow, the 18 year old Queen of Scots, is pregnant with his child. The French court waits to crown the young Prince Charles until she gives birth the following year
1561:
April: Edward VI, 23, consummates his marriage with his wife, Elisabeth, 16. It is quickly clear that she is not pregnant, but Edward does not appear worried, as they are both young.
July: Mary, Queen of Scots gives birth to daughter, Princess Catherine Victoire of France, who cannot succeed to the French throne, but does inherit the duchy of Brittany automatically from her father. Mary prepares to leave France for her Kingdom of Scotland, which she has not seen since early childhood. The newborn princess will be raised by her grandmother, the Queen Dowager Catherine de Medici. Charles IX, 11, is announced as King and will be coronated soon
September: Catherine of Palatinate-Neuberg, 20, gives birth to her second child, a daughter named Catherine after herself
September: Lady Katherine Grey, 21, gives birth to her first child, Edward Seymour, named after her husband. She and her husband are still banished from court for their secret marriage
November: Elizabeth, Countess of Devon, 28, gives birth to her fourth child, Catherine, named after her stepmother Catherine Parr.
1562:
August: Jane Grey, 25, gives birth to her fourth child, a son named Henry, after her late father Henry Grey.
1563:
March: Katherine Grey, 22, gives birth to her second child, another son, named Thomas Seymour. She writes to her cousin King Edward to request that she and her husband be allowed back at court, and Edward agrees to meet, but only with her. At the meeting, he agrees to allow Katherine back at court, but not her husband, and her children will only be legitimized if he agrees to this. Seymour solemnly agrees, and their marriage is deemed valid and their children legitimate.
1564:
April: Mary, Queen of Scots, 22, marries her cousin Henry Stewart, Lord Darnley, 18, in an attempt to relieve pressures from her advisors to find a husband and produce a male heir
April: Elisabeth of Valois, 19, gives birth to her first child, a son named Edward after her husband. He is quickly invested as Prince of Wales, and is noted to be a healthy strong boy, with blond wisps of hair similar to that of his father
July: Catherine of Palatinate-Neuberg, 22, gives birth to her third child, a daughter named Isabella after her great-grandmother Isabella of Castile
October: Lady Elizabeth, 31, gives birth to her fifth child, a son named Arthur, after her late uncle the Prince of Wales
1565:
March: Mary, Queen of Scots, 23, gives birth to a son, named James after her father King James V of Scotland. Baby James is proclaimed to be the Heir of Scotland and is later made Duke of Rothesay
Line of Succession as of 1565:
1. Prince Edward of Wales, born 1564
2. Edward Courtenay, born 1556
3. Arthur Courtenay, born 1564
4. John Dudley, born 1560
5. Henry Dudley, born 1562
May: Edward VI, 21 , marries Elisabeth of Valois, 14, by proxy in France and officially in England later in May. The marriage contract states that the marriage will not be consummated until Elisabeth is 16 years old, in April of 1561.
July: Henri II of France, 40, dies in a jousting accident, and is succeeded by his 15 year old son, Francois II, who married Mary, Queen of Scots, 17, the year prior.
September: Catherine of Palatinate-Neuberg, 18, the eldest daughter of Lady Mary Tudor, 43, marries Johann Friedrich of Saxony, 22, the nephew of Lady Mary's ex-stepmother, Anna of Cleves
1560:
February: Jane Grey, 23, gives birth to her third child and first son, John Dudley, named after her father-in-law. He now precedes her and her daughters in the line of succession
February: Catherine of Palatinate-Neuberg, 19, gives birth to her first child, Johann Friedrich, named after her husband
June: Lady Katherine Grey, 20, marries Edward Seymour, 21, in secret. When their cousin, the 22 year old King, finds out he is furious and banishes both of them from court
December: Francois II of France, 16, dies of an ear infection. Although not known immediately, his widow, the 18 year old Queen of Scots, is pregnant with his child. The French court waits to crown the young Prince Charles until she gives birth the following year
1561:
April: Edward VI, 23, consummates his marriage with his wife, Elisabeth, 16. It is quickly clear that she is not pregnant, but Edward does not appear worried, as they are both young.
July: Mary, Queen of Scots gives birth to daughter, Princess Catherine Victoire of France, who cannot succeed to the French throne, but does inherit the duchy of Brittany automatically from her father. Mary prepares to leave France for her Kingdom of Scotland, which she has not seen since early childhood. The newborn princess will be raised by her grandmother, the Queen Dowager Catherine de Medici. Charles IX, 11, is announced as King and will be coronated soon
September: Catherine of Palatinate-Neuberg, 20, gives birth to her second child, a daughter named Catherine after herself
September: Lady Katherine Grey, 21, gives birth to her first child, Edward Seymour, named after her husband. She and her husband are still banished from court for their secret marriage
November: Elizabeth, Countess of Devon, 28, gives birth to her fourth child, Catherine, named after her stepmother Catherine Parr.
1562:
August: Jane Grey, 25, gives birth to her fourth child, a son named Henry, after her late father Henry Grey.
1563:
March: Katherine Grey, 22, gives birth to her second child, another son, named Thomas Seymour. She writes to her cousin King Edward to request that she and her husband be allowed back at court, and Edward agrees to meet, but only with her. At the meeting, he agrees to allow Katherine back at court, but not her husband, and her children will only be legitimized if he agrees to this. Seymour solemnly agrees, and their marriage is deemed valid and their children legitimate.
1564:
April: Mary, Queen of Scots, 22, marries her cousin Henry Stewart, Lord Darnley, 18, in an attempt to relieve pressures from her advisors to find a husband and produce a male heir
April: Elisabeth of Valois, 19, gives birth to her first child, a son named Edward after her husband. He is quickly invested as Prince of Wales, and is noted to be a healthy strong boy, with blond wisps of hair similar to that of his father
July: Catherine of Palatinate-Neuberg, 22, gives birth to her third child, a daughter named Isabella after her great-grandmother Isabella of Castile
October: Lady Elizabeth, 31, gives birth to her fifth child, a son named Arthur, after her late uncle the Prince of Wales
1565:
March: Mary, Queen of Scots, 23, gives birth to a son, named James after her father King James V of Scotland. Baby James is proclaimed to be the Heir of Scotland and is later made Duke of Rothesay
Line of Succession as of 1565:
1. Prince Edward of Wales, born 1564
2. Edward Courtenay, born 1556
3. Arthur Courtenay, born 1564
4. John Dudley, born 1560
5. Henry Dudley, born 1562
1566-1580
1566:
April: Katherine Grey, age 26 , gives birth to a third son named Henry after her father Henry Grey
August: Mary Seymour, age 18, daughter of Thomas Seymour and Catherine Parr, marries Henry, age 21, Duke of Palatinate-Neuberg, after meeting and falling in love during one of Henry's visits to his English cousins
September: Elisabeth of Valois, Queen consort of England, age 21, gives birth to her second child and first daughter, named Jane after her late mother-in-law Jane Seymour
November: Anna of Austria, wife of Carlos, Prince of Asturias since 1563, gives birth to their first child, a daughter they name Maria Manuela after Carlo's deceased mother
December: Catherine of Palatinate-Neuberg, age 24, gives birth to her fourth child, a third daughter who she names Sibylle after her late mother-in-law, Sibylle of Cleves, sister of Anne of Cleves, the fourth wife of King Henry VIII
1567:
February: Mary, Queen of Scots, age 25, gives birth to her second son, named Alexander, a traditional name in the Scottish royal family
August: Diego Felix, Infante of Spain, dies after a long illness at the age of 4. His parents, King Felipe III and Barbara of Austria, are grief-stricken
1568:
January: Barbara of Austria, Queen consort of Spain, age 29, gives birth to her fifth child and third daughter, named Ana Sofia
March: Elisabeth of Valois, age 21, gives birth to her third child, another daughter, named Katherine. English subjects are disappointed, but King Edward is delighted to have another daughter, as he is very close to his first, who is nearly two years old
March: Anna of Austria, age 19, gives birth to her second child, a son named Felipe Prospero
August: Mary, Queen of Scots, age 26, gives birth to her third child, a daughter named Mary after herself
1570:
January: Anna of Austria, age 21, gives birth to her third child, another son named Carlos Felipe
January: Mary Seymour, Duchess consort of Palatinate-Neuberg, age 22, gives birth to her first child, a daughter named Mary after herself and her mother-in-law, Mary Tudor, age 54
1571:
August: Carlos Felipe, the second son of Prince Carlos of Asturias and Anna of Austria, dies at 1 year old of tuberculosis
1572:
June: Jeanne III, Queen of Navarre, age 43, dies of suspected poisoning by Catherine de Medici. Her son, Henri III, becomes King of Navarre at age 19, and his new bride, Marguerite of France, daughter of Catherine de Medici, becomes Queen consort
July: Anna of Austria, age 23, gives birth to her fourth child, a third son named Fernando Lorenzo
August: Elisabeth of Valois, age 27, gives birth to her fourth child, a son named Edmund. He is made Duke of York later in toddlerhood
September: Barbara of Austria, age 33, gives birth to her sixth child and third son, named Felipe Laurenco
September: Mary, Queen of Scots, age 30, gives birth to fourth child, a second daughter named Margaret, after her grandmother Margaret Tudor
October: Elisabeth of Austria, age 18, gives birth to a daughter, Marie-Elisabeth, after two years of marriage to King Charles IX of France, age 22
1573:
June: Elisabeth of Valois, age 28, gives birth to her fifth child, a daughter named Margaret
September: Mary Seymour, age 25, gives birth to her second child, another daughter named Catherine after her sister-in-law and grandmother-in-law, Catherine of Aragon
1574:
May: Edward Courtenay, eldest son of Elizabeth Tudor and Edward Courtenay the elder, marries Jane Dudley, the second daughter of Jane Grey and Guildford Dudley
1575:
March: Anne Courtenay, age 21, eldest daughter of Elizabeth Tudor and Edward Courtenay the elder, marries Francis Knollys the younger, age 23, fifth son of Catherine Carey and Francis Knollys the elder
April: Mary Seymour, age 27, gives birth to her third child, another daughter named Elizabeth
October: Anna of Austria, age 26, gives birth to her fifth child and second daughter, named Isabel Maria
1576:
May: Jane Dudley, age 19, gives birth to her first child, a daughter, Jane Courtenay, named after herself and her mother Jane Grey
July: Elisabeth of Valois, age 31, gives birth to her sixth child and third son, named Francis after her deceased brother, Francois II of France
September: Elizabeth Courtenay, third child of Elizabeth Tudor and Edward Courtenay the elder, age 18, marries Edmund Carey, also age 18, the fourth son of Henry Carey and Anne Morgan
1577:
March: Anne Courtenay, age 23, gives birth to her first child, a daughter, Elizabeth Knollys, named after her grandmother Elizabeth Tudor, age 44
May: Jane Dudley, age 20, gives birth to her second child, a son, Henry Courtenay
June: Mary, Queen of Scots, age 35, gives birth to her fifth child, a third daughter named Eleanor
July: Mary Seymour, age 29, gives birth to her fourth child, a son named Henry after her husband. She and her husband are relieved after the birth of three daughters
November: Anna of Austria, age 28, gives birth to her sixth child and fourth son, named Carlos Felipe, after her deceased son who died six years prior
1578:
August: Anne Courtenay, age 24, gives birth to her second child, another daughter, Catherine Knollys
1579:
February: Elizabeth Courtenay, age 21, gives birth to her first child, Elizabeth Carey, named after herself and her mother, Elizabeth Tudor
July: Anna of Austria, age 30, gives birth to her seventh child and third daughter, named Ana Constanza, after herself
July: Elisabeth of Austria, age 25, gives birth to her second child after seven years of no pregnancies, to a son named Francois Antoine
September: Jane Dudley, age 22, gives birth to her third child, William Courtenay
1580:
July: Carlos, Prince of Asturias, dies at the age of 35 after a long life of mental instability. His long-suffering wife is now left to care for their six surviving children. Their 12 year old son, Felipe Prospero, is now the Heir to the Kingdom of Spain
October: Fernando Lorenzo, fourth child of the late Prince of Asturias and Anna of Austria, dies at the age of 8 of pneumonia. His mother, Anna, is distraught at losing a child only three months after the death of her husband Carlos. Her stepmother-in-law (And paternal Aunt), Barbara of Austria, comforts her in her grief and brings her and her remaining five children to court, to assist her in raising them
October: Anne Courtenay, age 26, gives birth to her third daughter, Anne Knollys, named for herself and her grandmother/namesake, Anne Boleyn
November: Prince Francis of England, youngest son of Edward VI and Elisabeth of Valois, dies of tuberculosis at the age of 4. His parents bury their youngest solemnly and the Kingdom of England grieves for many years
Line of Succession in England as of the end of 1580:
1. Prince Edward, age 16
2. Prince Edmund, age 8
3. Princess Jane, age 14
4. Princess Katherine, age 12
5. Princess Margaret, age 7
6. Elizabeth Tudor, age 47
7. Edward Courtenay, age 24
8. Henry Courtenay, age 3
9. William Courtenay, age 1
10. Arthur Courtenay, age 16
11 Anne Courtenay, age 26
12. Elizabeth Courtenay, age 22
13. Catherine Courtenay, age 19
let me know if anything seems weird or if the line of succession doesn't make sense. I know typically it wouldn't go straight from Edmund to Princess Jane, however I feel that Edward VI would rather it go to his child, even a daughter, rather than a nephew/cousin, etc, hence I think his daughters would be included in the line of succession (He also has a nearly adult Heir , so its more likely that England go to a future grandson in the event of Prince Edward and Prince Edmund's deaths anyway). I also didn't include those past Catherine Courtenay because I didn't feel like it, but it would go to Jane Grey, then her sons, their sons, and then Jane's daughters and then their sons, etc, maybe going to Katherine Grey eventually, who has three sons (Who are Seymours), and the worst-case scenario it would eventually get to Mary, Queen of Scots (who, at this point, wouldn't be accepted as England is more used to a Protestant, Tudor monarch (Of course theres probably still Catholics who want Mary as their queen, though)
April: Katherine Grey, age 26 , gives birth to a third son named Henry after her father Henry Grey
August: Mary Seymour, age 18, daughter of Thomas Seymour and Catherine Parr, marries Henry, age 21, Duke of Palatinate-Neuberg, after meeting and falling in love during one of Henry's visits to his English cousins
September: Elisabeth of Valois, Queen consort of England, age 21, gives birth to her second child and first daughter, named Jane after her late mother-in-law Jane Seymour
November: Anna of Austria, wife of Carlos, Prince of Asturias since 1563, gives birth to their first child, a daughter they name Maria Manuela after Carlo's deceased mother
December: Catherine of Palatinate-Neuberg, age 24, gives birth to her fourth child, a third daughter who she names Sibylle after her late mother-in-law, Sibylle of Cleves, sister of Anne of Cleves, the fourth wife of King Henry VIII
1567:
February: Mary, Queen of Scots, age 25, gives birth to her second son, named Alexander, a traditional name in the Scottish royal family
August: Diego Felix, Infante of Spain, dies after a long illness at the age of 4. His parents, King Felipe III and Barbara of Austria, are grief-stricken
1568:
January: Barbara of Austria, Queen consort of Spain, age 29, gives birth to her fifth child and third daughter, named Ana Sofia
March: Elisabeth of Valois, age 21, gives birth to her third child, another daughter, named Katherine. English subjects are disappointed, but King Edward is delighted to have another daughter, as he is very close to his first, who is nearly two years old
March: Anna of Austria, age 19, gives birth to her second child, a son named Felipe Prospero
August: Mary, Queen of Scots, age 26, gives birth to her third child, a daughter named Mary after herself
1570:
January: Anna of Austria, age 21, gives birth to her third child, another son named Carlos Felipe
January: Mary Seymour, Duchess consort of Palatinate-Neuberg, age 22, gives birth to her first child, a daughter named Mary after herself and her mother-in-law, Mary Tudor, age 54
1571:
August: Carlos Felipe, the second son of Prince Carlos of Asturias and Anna of Austria, dies at 1 year old of tuberculosis
1572:
June: Jeanne III, Queen of Navarre, age 43, dies of suspected poisoning by Catherine de Medici. Her son, Henri III, becomes King of Navarre at age 19, and his new bride, Marguerite of France, daughter of Catherine de Medici, becomes Queen consort
July: Anna of Austria, age 23, gives birth to her fourth child, a third son named Fernando Lorenzo
August: Elisabeth of Valois, age 27, gives birth to her fourth child, a son named Edmund. He is made Duke of York later in toddlerhood
September: Barbara of Austria, age 33, gives birth to her sixth child and third son, named Felipe Laurenco
September: Mary, Queen of Scots, age 30, gives birth to fourth child, a second daughter named Margaret, after her grandmother Margaret Tudor
October: Elisabeth of Austria, age 18, gives birth to a daughter, Marie-Elisabeth, after two years of marriage to King Charles IX of France, age 22
1573:
June: Elisabeth of Valois, age 28, gives birth to her fifth child, a daughter named Margaret
September: Mary Seymour, age 25, gives birth to her second child, another daughter named Catherine after her sister-in-law and grandmother-in-law, Catherine of Aragon
1574:
May: Edward Courtenay, eldest son of Elizabeth Tudor and Edward Courtenay the elder, marries Jane Dudley, the second daughter of Jane Grey and Guildford Dudley
1575:
March: Anne Courtenay, age 21, eldest daughter of Elizabeth Tudor and Edward Courtenay the elder, marries Francis Knollys the younger, age 23, fifth son of Catherine Carey and Francis Knollys the elder
April: Mary Seymour, age 27, gives birth to her third child, another daughter named Elizabeth
October: Anna of Austria, age 26, gives birth to her fifth child and second daughter, named Isabel Maria
1576:
May: Jane Dudley, age 19, gives birth to her first child, a daughter, Jane Courtenay, named after herself and her mother Jane Grey
July: Elisabeth of Valois, age 31, gives birth to her sixth child and third son, named Francis after her deceased brother, Francois II of France
September: Elizabeth Courtenay, third child of Elizabeth Tudor and Edward Courtenay the elder, age 18, marries Edmund Carey, also age 18, the fourth son of Henry Carey and Anne Morgan
1577:
March: Anne Courtenay, age 23, gives birth to her first child, a daughter, Elizabeth Knollys, named after her grandmother Elizabeth Tudor, age 44
May: Jane Dudley, age 20, gives birth to her second child, a son, Henry Courtenay
June: Mary, Queen of Scots, age 35, gives birth to her fifth child, a third daughter named Eleanor
July: Mary Seymour, age 29, gives birth to her fourth child, a son named Henry after her husband. She and her husband are relieved after the birth of three daughters
November: Anna of Austria, age 28, gives birth to her sixth child and fourth son, named Carlos Felipe, after her deceased son who died six years prior
1578:
August: Anne Courtenay, age 24, gives birth to her second child, another daughter, Catherine Knollys
1579:
February: Elizabeth Courtenay, age 21, gives birth to her first child, Elizabeth Carey, named after herself and her mother, Elizabeth Tudor
July: Anna of Austria, age 30, gives birth to her seventh child and third daughter, named Ana Constanza, after herself
July: Elisabeth of Austria, age 25, gives birth to her second child after seven years of no pregnancies, to a son named Francois Antoine
September: Jane Dudley, age 22, gives birth to her third child, William Courtenay
1580:
July: Carlos, Prince of Asturias, dies at the age of 35 after a long life of mental instability. His long-suffering wife is now left to care for their six surviving children. Their 12 year old son, Felipe Prospero, is now the Heir to the Kingdom of Spain
October: Fernando Lorenzo, fourth child of the late Prince of Asturias and Anna of Austria, dies at the age of 8 of pneumonia. His mother, Anna, is distraught at losing a child only three months after the death of her husband Carlos. Her stepmother-in-law (And paternal Aunt), Barbara of Austria, comforts her in her grief and brings her and her remaining five children to court, to assist her in raising them
October: Anne Courtenay, age 26, gives birth to her third daughter, Anne Knollys, named for herself and her grandmother/namesake, Anne Boleyn
November: Prince Francis of England, youngest son of Edward VI and Elisabeth of Valois, dies of tuberculosis at the age of 4. His parents bury their youngest solemnly and the Kingdom of England grieves for many years
Line of Succession in England as of the end of 1580:
1. Prince Edward, age 16
2. Prince Edmund, age 8
3. Princess Jane, age 14
4. Princess Katherine, age 12
5. Princess Margaret, age 7
6. Elizabeth Tudor, age 47
7. Edward Courtenay, age 24
8. Henry Courtenay, age 3
9. William Courtenay, age 1
10. Arthur Courtenay, age 16
11 Anne Courtenay, age 26
12. Elizabeth Courtenay, age 22
13. Catherine Courtenay, age 19
let me know if anything seems weird or if the line of succession doesn't make sense. I know typically it wouldn't go straight from Edmund to Princess Jane, however I feel that Edward VI would rather it go to his child, even a daughter, rather than a nephew/cousin, etc, hence I think his daughters would be included in the line of succession (He also has a nearly adult Heir , so its more likely that England go to a future grandson in the event of Prince Edward and Prince Edmund's deaths anyway). I also didn't include those past Catherine Courtenay because I didn't feel like it, but it would go to Jane Grey, then her sons, their sons, and then Jane's daughters and then their sons, etc, maybe going to Katherine Grey eventually, who has three sons (Who are Seymours), and the worst-case scenario it would eventually get to Mary, Queen of Scots (who, at this point, wouldn't be accepted as England is more used to a Protestant, Tudor monarch (Of course theres probably still Catholics who want Mary as their queen, though)
Last edited:
Nor can she have a son in August 1572 and another child in February 1573, that's only seven months between them. The earliest another child can be born, allowing six weeks for Eleanor to be churched, is June 1573...
Yes, but at seven months in those days? I don't see the child surviving...
And considering it would be born at 21 weeks, at the very latest, there is no chance of survival. We don't even consider babies viable outside of the womb now until 22 weeks, and even then the survival rate is 30% with all the bells and whistles that we currently have.
Now, it's possible that the child could be born alive at 21 weeks, survive for a few moments, and *maybe* -and that's a very big generous maybe- be able to be baptized before passing if there was a priest literally waiting in the next room.
Last edited:
i'll move the second child's birth to June, I must have missed the small gap
I did write this late at night, so thats my badWait a minute, Mary and Francis II had a daughter? Who...stayed in France, apparently, while her mother returned to Scotland? Or was she dumped onto Brittany? Scotland isn't protesting at their baby heiress being left with Catherine de' Medici? Like, unless Mary of Scots married Charles IX (and she didn't) - why is the princess not leaving with her?
A daughter of Francis and Mary would be only heiress presumptive. As long as her mother can produce a son, her presence in Scotland is useless.
But she would not "inherit the duchy of Brittany automatically from her father". The Edict of Union of 1532 kept France and Brittany united. In order to become duchess of Brittany, the daughter would have to contest this edict. That's definitely possible, especially considering the trouble France had to face during the French Wars of Religion, but that would not be that easy. Likely, she would have to fight her uncles.
As heiress presumptive against heiress of nothing she would go in Scotland with her mother
Which is what I questioned. Why is she staying in France? Like, let her go be with her mother
When Charles IX died in OTL, Marie-Elisabeth did not go to Austria with her mother. She stayed in France, as a French princess.
That would be the same for a daughter of Francis II. She would leave France only either to marry, either to become queen of Scotland (and England?) which is not supposed to happen as long as Mary can produce a son.
Marie Elisabeth died at 5, we won't ever know if she'd be allowed to leave, but she isn't heiress of another country either...whereas a daughter of Francis and Mary would be.
Elisabeth was NOT a Queen in her own right and her daughter had NO Austrian title, while Mary’s daughter would be heiress presumptive of Scotland until the birth of an half-brother and I can not see Mary leaving her as hostage (as that would be basically her fate) in the hands of a mother-in-law who disliked her and her family.
Mary leaving her daughter behind in France is pretty much ASB, specially as said daughter would be first Scottish and then French as soon her father died
Marie-Elisabeth was 3 when her mother left. She stayed in France without her.
And her position is not that different from the one of a daughter of Francis and Mary. Sure, a daughter of Francis and Mary may one day inherit Scotland and England but, as long as Mary can produce a son, this is purely speculative.
She would be French. And, if Mary refuses to leave her in France, it implies Mary would have to stay in France too. Or to kill Catherine. There is no way Catherine would let anyone taking her infant granddaughter to Scotland.
Last edited:
NO. Things do NOT work like that: UNTIL Mary birth an healthy son (and she can easily die before that) HER DAUGHTER IS HER ONLY HEIR. Sure she can be supplanted by an half-brother, but NOT BEFORE his birth
She would be SCOTTISH first as princess and daughter of the Queen Regnant of that country, and second French as she has the title of princess but do NOT belong anymore to the main line being a simple niece of the King.
Catherine CAN NOT FORBIDDEN to Mary to take her daughter and heiress to Scotland without land her, NOT when Mary is a ruling Queen and that girl could rule over Scotland one day
Last edited:
I never said otherwise.
Her male line family is French. That makes her French.
Tell that to Jeanne d'Albret. After Antoine de Bourbon's death, Catherine raised in French court the heir apparent to the throne of Navarre.
And you think she would let go the heiress presumptive to the throne of Scotland who happens to be her own granddaugher? No way.
Last edited: