War makes for Strange Bedfellows – A Second World War timeline

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Chapter 6 - Scandinavian Surprise
Chapter 6 - Scandinavian Surprise
The Scandinavian Campaign (Part 3)
March 1940

At 21:39 local time (20:39 GMT) on the evening of 9 March 1940, the landing ships of the Stratford landing group entered the Ofotfjord, led by HMS Renown. After most of the Allied destroyers had peeled off from the main group to capture the outer batteries of the fjord, only three were left (HMS Renown, HMS Hardy and the French destroyer Tartu) to contend with the two old costal, defence ships in the harbour, the Eidsvold and the Norge. Despite their age, they would be able to inflict substantial damage to the destroyers. However, this firepower wouldn’t be necessary as the captain of the Eidsvold, Odd Isaachsen Willoch, correctly recognising the Union Jack and French tricolour. The captain of the Renown assured Willoch that they were “coming as friends” [1]. After radioing to the captain of the Norge, Per Askim, the allied force was allowed to proceed. After being allowed passage, the troops landed in the port of Narvik with little resistance, with Norwegian troops in the area commanded by Konrad Sundlo surrendering after Sundlo was killed by French troops after roughly an hour of fighting [2]. During the fight, Sundlo had forgotten to order the destruction of the bridge at Norddalen. It's capture was a major boon to the Allies.

The Allies could now prepare for their advance into Sweden.

1635000614617.png

Norwegian troops with an M/01 7.5cm field gun during their brief battle with the Allies at Narvik.

In Trondheim, resistance was non-existent. A well targeted shot from the British light cruiser HMS Glasgow severed the power cables for the harbour’s searchlights, rendering them useless. The Allied ground forces landed in Trondheim unopposed. The airfield at Værnes was captured soon after unopposed.

In Oslo, King Haakon VII was notified of the invasion by an aide at around midnight on the 10th local time. His message to the King was “Majesty, we are at war” to which Haakon’s response was “With whom?” Upon discovering that it was the Allies including the British, he was stunned. His country had an extremely close relationship with the British. Why would they stab Norway in the back like this?

Nevertheless, questioning British motives wasn’t going to stop their attack. Immediately, an emergency cabinet meeting was held at half past midnight on the 10 March. The military situation for Norway was bleak. The Allied invasion had only gone on for just over three hours and yet they had captured all their main objectives. Narvik, Trondheim, Bergen and Stavanger were now under occupation. With the loss of their major harbours, the Norwegian army had lost arms depots for mobilisation centres. Armed resistance had been sporadic, uncoordinated or often non-existent. Further military resistance was useless. Many Norwegian commanders had welcomed Allied troops ashore and believed they were in Norway to protect from German or Soviet attack. That possibility also scared the Norwegian government. Resist and potentially allow German or Soviet forces to crash in through the back door or accept the sting of the invasion and accept Allied “protection” of Norwegian territory. As much as it hurt to accept, the latter option was decided upon.

At 00:47 Oslo time, Norwegian Foreign Minister Halvdan Koht met with the British ambassador, Sir Cecil Dormer, and requested a ceasefire. After 3 hours and 8 minutes, the Allied invasion of Norway was over.

1635000717090.png

Halvdan Koht, Norwegian Minister of Foreign Affairs

Next, the Allies began to advance on Norway's neighbour, Sweden. Much like Norway, Sweden had no plans on how to stop an invasion and most of their northern troops were mobilised on the border with Finland to prevent the still-ongoing Finnish-Soviet War (now known as the Winter War) from spilling over into Sweden. On the other hand, that war looked to be winding down leaving roughly 100,000 armed men who could be redeployed if-needs-be. Around two hours after the Narvik landings at 23:00 local time, Swedish Prime Minister Per Albin Hansson was notified of the attack through the Norwegian embassy. An hour and a half later, Norway surrendered.

1635001207652.png

Per Albin Hansson, Prime Minister of Sweden

Hansson was determined to maintain Sweden's long held neutrality. After the swift capitulation of Norway, it became more likely that protection of that neutrality may well have to be done by force. The Iron Ore Line was the only form of transportation in the region as there were no roads linking Narvik and Kiruna. Major General Archibald Douglas, commander of Upper Norrland's troops (Övre Norrlands trupper), was alerted of possible attack from Norway and ordered to transfer 20,000 troops to the Norwegian border, up from the requested 10,000 on the 7th. Other than that, Stockholm could only wait and see what would happen. Everyone in the Swedish government and armed forces waited with baited breath, hoping for the best since they were underprepared for the worst.

Later on that morning, Sweden would get its answer. The worst had come. The station master at Riksgränsen near the Norwegian border had attempted to call his counterpart in Kiruna Central Station around 07:28 local time to inform him that British troops were disembarking at the station and that more troops would be continuing down the line towards Kiruna. But to his horror, the line was dead. The British-French-Polish forces continued down to the line. At this point, their luck was almost astounding.

At 08:11 on the morning of the 10th, the trains would begin arriving in Björkliden. here, the Allies luck ran out. Unlike Riksgränsen, the station master was able to call forward to Kiruna of the impending danger. After the announcement of "This is Björkliden. We are under attack from military forces. Repeat. We are under attack from military forces" and the audible sound of gunfire in the background, the station master at Kiruna called Major General Douglas, and Major General Douglas then phoned Hansson. When Hansson was informed of the invasion, he was apoplectic. Sweden's neutrality, after 125 years, had been broken. He immediately order Swedish State Railways (Statens Järnvägar) to shut off power to the line. The Allied advance was stopped dead in its tracks 2 miles outside Björkliden, with heavy fighting continuing to take place in the town itself. Hansson called an emergency cabinet meeting.

Sweden was under attack.

Footnotes
- [1] The Germans told Willoch the same thing OTL. When he didn't believe them the Germans opened fire on the Eidsvold, killing Willoch.
- [2] In OTL, Sundlo surrendered without a fight. However, since he was pro-German and collaborated with the Quisling government in OTL he'd probably resist an Allied invasion.

Comments?
 
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Very interesting scenariothus far. Hitler removed at the near onset of the war should have some significant butterflies.
 
Extremely bad idea by the Allies that is going to backfire horribly. Attacking two neutral nations at the same time not only is going to strain logistics but to destroy their reputation across the world.
 
Hey guys, apologies for the next update being late. I'm very busy at the moment with my studies and have had to delay writing the next update. I'll try and upload it within the next week but rest assured, this timeline is not dead.
 
Hey guys, apologies for the next update being late. I'm very busy at the moment with my studies and have had to delay writing the next update. I'll try and upload it within the next week but rest assured, this timeline is not dead.
Glad to hear this isn't dead, I was starting to get worried.
Take your time, RL before TL's I always say.
 

ferdi254

Banned
As long as there is no fighting the UK troops can march. If there is determined resistance the lack of transport will greatly hinder them.
 
I know Swedish defences were weak, but how come the Brits could just ride a train into Kiruna completely unoppsed?
 
Chapter 7 - When I Least Deserve It
Apologies for the late release. Now, without further ado...

Chapter 7 – When I Least Deserve It
The Scandinavian Campaign (Part 4)
March 1940

With the trains stopped outside Björkliden, the initial aims of Operation Silver had failed. Despite this, Norway had been secured and Germany’s supply of iron ore was under threat. The operation had been a huge gamble. The British and French governments had assumed that the Norwegians and Swedes would ultimately allow for the troop passage following initial verbal protests. The Norwegians had indeed caved in after a few hours of confused and often sporadic resistance, it was assumed in London and Paris that Sweden would do the same. That is, if Sweden did what the Allies expected of them.

The response in Stockholm was confused and Hansson’s government unsure of how to act. There were a number of troops from the Skidlöparbataljonen (Skirunners Batallion) of the Norrbotten Regiment in the town of Abisko deployed quickly following the Allied ultimatum with a few more troops from the Norrbotten Regiment in Björkliden itself, though the Swedish government believed that the Allied force numbered more that their battalion. Further still, the political consequences of a military resistance couldn’t be calculated. However, simply allowing Allied troops across their territory could very easily bring upon Sweden the wrath of Germany or the Soviet Union, possibly even both. The last thing the Swedish government wanted to happen was the flattening of their cities by either the Luftwaffe or indeed the Royal Air Force. It seemed that no matter what Sweden did, the chances of them becoming involved in the expanding European war were becoming more likely, especially as more news from the north was recieved.

1635885102918.png

Swedish troops fighting in Björkliden

Details weren’t entirely precise, but reports were coming in of the battle between Allied and Swedish troops inside the town of Björkliden, with the Swedes forced to retreat to an ad-hoc defensive line outside Kiruna to save on low ammunition. If the previous response had been confusion, the greater clarity of the situation now turned that mood into anger.

The immediate response from Stockholm was to summon the British ambassador, Sir Victor Mallet, before the cabinet in order to explain his government’s actions.

1635884475178.png

Sir Victor Mallet, British Ambassador to Sweden

Mallet insisted, like his Norwegian counterpart, that they were “coming as friends" in order to aid Finland against the Soviets, and that Allied incursion would be limited to northern Sweden only. He then proceeded to inform the Swedish government of the British and Allied offer to them. The Swedish government would allow the Anglo-French troops through Swedish territory in order to aid the beleaguered Finns, in return the Allies would pledge to defend Sweden from any German or Soviet attack. The ambassador then departed to return to his embassy, leaving the cabinet to discuss the proposal.

All members of the cabinet believed the proposal was a farce. They believed that if the British were allowed to occupy the railway; they would seize control of the iron ore mines. However, rejection of the proposal would almost certainly mean further escalation with the Allies into full-blown war.

Foreign minister, Christian Günther, was the first to comment. He believed that accepting the proposal would likely result in a German retaliation against Sweden. He pointed out that the Swedish air force was nowhere near capable of taking on the Luftwaffe and that the Germans were capable of securing “immediate and complete domination in the air” [1] and could destroy every city in the country. His sentiments were echoed by defence minister, Per Edvin Sköld, who also said that Sweden’s six army divisions would be hard-pressed if faced with war due to equipment shortages. Every member of the cabinet opposed granting control of the Iron Ore Line to the Allies, although some members were more open to compromise than others. Eventually, a decision was made. The Swedish army’s six divisions would be fully mobilised and more troops would be sent north in case of continued escalation. The Riksdag would be informed of ongoing events and the Swedish government would let the Allies know that they were willing to “use any means available to us to defend our neutrality and independence” but would continue to negotiate with the Allies in the hopes of defusing the situation.

1635884517139.png

Christian Günther, Swedish Minister of Foreign Affairs

1635884589235.png

Per Edvin Sköld, Swedish Minister of Defence

That afternoon, the Riksdag met for an emergency session to determine Sweden’s response to the Allied (mostly British) invasion in the north. A national emergency was soon declared, and the British demands would be rejected and the government’s request for mobilisation was approved. The Anglo-Swedish War Trade Agreement signed in December 1939 [2], was also to be annulled. Despite these measures, negotiations with the British government continued, scheduled for the next day.

At 17:30 Stockholm time, Prime Minister Per Albin Hansson went on Sveriges Radio to announce the invasion of their country and their response. He announced that a state of emergency had been declared and that the armed forces were to be fully mobilised, including the calling up of reservists. Notably left out of the broadcast were the continued negotiations with the British since Hansson wished to avoid provoking either the Germans or the Soviets into retaliating against Sweden. Following his speech, civil defence announcements were made stating that the air raid sirens would be tested that evening (10 March) at 19:00. All non-essential public gatherings were prohibited, and cinemas, theatres and sporting events were closed until further notice. Churches and schools, however, would remain open. All those who were listening were now aware that Sweden was preparing itself for war. Hansson left the studios with tears in his eyes, knowing that it was now unlikely that all-out war could be prevented.

1635884357600.png

Hansson delivering his war speech to the Swedish people, 10 March 1940

The next morning, the cabinet again met with Mallet. The atmosphere was colder than ever. Mallet, who had privately opposed the invasion, believing a neutral Sweden to of greatest aid to the Allies, but nonetheless doing as his government had told him to, again reiterated the British offer. Again, the Swedish government rejected the advances. With the collapse of negotiations, and the continued escalation of fighting in the north, it appeared that efforts to keep Sweden out of the war were doomed to failure. Unbeknownst to Mallet, four Vickers Wellesley bombers from No. 37 Squadron RAF departed from Bardufoss Air Station at 14:30 that afternoon, headed for Kiruna. They weren't carrying bombs though, but leaflets printed prior to the invasion attempting to explain the British and Allied perspective on things [4]. Unfortunately, the Swedish anti-aircraft gunners weren't that receptive. British papers were met with Swedish bullets as Bofors 40mm anti-aircraft guns managed to shoot down 2 of the Wellesley’s, killing the whole of one crew which crashed into the city itself killing 73 people including the whole crew. The second bomber crashed outside Kiruna killling all but two of the bomber crew who were captured and spent the rest of the as POWs in Storsien for the rest of the war.

1649853190156.png

Aftermath of the British bomber crash in Kiruna

The "bombing" of Kiruna was the last straw. When news Prime Minister Hansson, he wept.

At 18:15 in the evening of 11 March 1940, a weary ambassador Mallet was handed Sweden's declaration of war on the United Kingdom and was instructed to leave Stockholm immediately. The French ambassador received similar treatment.

For the first time since 1815, Sweden was at war.

Sweden 3.png

Swedish front, as of 13 March 1940

Two days later, on the 12th, Finland signed the Moscow Peace Treaty. The Winter War was over, and with it the Allied excuse for intervention in Scandinavia in the first place.

The treaty forced the Finns to cede the following the the Soviet Union:
- The Rybachy peninsula
- The Gulf of Finland islands of Suursaari, Tytärsaari, Lavansaari, Peninsaari and Seiskari
- Part of the Salla region
- Approximately half of Finnish Karelia, including the city of Viipuri.
- The port of Hanko was to be leased as a naval base for the Soviet Baltic Fleet for 30 years.

Additionally, the Canadian nickel mining company INCO had its operations in Petsamo seized by the Finnish government at the request of the Soviets [3]. This caused outrage within the British and Canadian governments, but little action could be taken as the mines had been occupied by the Soviets since late 1939.

1635885242270.png

Finnish territorial concessions to the Soviet Union as stated in
the Moscow Peace Treaty, signed 12 March 1940

The brutal terms shocked the Finns and saw condemnation from Britain and France, but with the military situation quickly deteriorating, the Finns had no choice but to sign. When forced to sign, Finnish President Kyösti Kallio quoted the Book of Zechariah by saying “May my hand, which is forced to sign such a paper, wither” [5].

By 13 March 1940, war had undoubtedly come to Scandinavia.

Announcement
Sorry for the sporadic upload schedule but I'm very busy at the moment with my studies. I try to upload when I can but this isn't taking priority right now. So right now, the best I can do is a new update once per week or two. Thanks for being so patient in waiting.

Footnotes
- [1] Günther said the same about the Luftwaffe in February 1940 in OTL
- [2] OTL agreement still signed here.
- [3] The Petsamo nickel mines were a somewhat controversial issue in OTL, when the Soviets agreed to withdraw from the mines partly due to British pressure. Here, the British is at war with the Soviets and have no such leverage. Thanks to Anarch King of Dipsodes for pointing this out.
- [4] I made this bit up.
- [5] This was a real quote of from Kallio.

Comments?
 
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Apologies for the late release. Now, without further ado...

Chapter 7 – When I Least Deserve It
The Scandinavian Campaign (Part 4)
March 1940

With the entry of Allied troops into Kiruna on 9 March 1940, the initial aims of Operation Silver had been achieved. Norway had been secured, Germany’s supply of iron ore was being threatened and Allied aid to Finland in their fight against the Soviet Union (the publicly given reason for the invasion) was one step closer. Despite this, the operation had been a huge gamble. The British and French governments had assumed that the Norwegians and Swedes would ultimately allow for the troop passage following initial verbal protests. The Norwegians had indeed caved in after a few hours of confused and often sporadic resistance, it was assumed in London and Paris that Sweden would do the same. That is, if Sweden did what the Allies expected of them.

The response in Stockholm was confused and Hansson’s government unsure of how to act. There were a small number of troops in Kiruna deployed quickly following the Allied ultimatum, though they numbered no more than 600 and Allied numbers was, as of yet, unknown to the Swedish government. Further still, the political consequences of a military resistance couldn’t be calculated. However, simply allowing Allied troops across their territory could very easily bring upon Sweden the wrath of Germany or the Soviet Union, possibly even both. The last thing the Swedish government wanted to happen was the flattening of their cities by either the Luftwaffe or indeed the Royal Air Force. It seemed that no matter what Sweden did, the chances of them becoming involved in the expanding European war were becoming more likely, especially with further news coming in from Kiruna.

View attachment 692388
Swedish troops fighting outside Kiruna

Details weren’t entirely precise, but reports came in that shooting had broken between Allied and Swedish troops inside the city, with the Swedes forced to retreat to an ad-hoc defensive line outside Kiruna to save on low ammunition. If the previous response had been confusion, the greater clarity of the situation now turned that mood into anger.

The immediate response from Stockholm was to switch off the power on the electrified Iron Ore Line, preventing Allied troops from advancing further without Swedish permission. Next, the British ambassador, Sir Victor Mallet, was summoned before the cabinet in order to explain his government’s actions.

View attachment 692379
Sir Victor Mallet, British Ambassador to Sweden

Mallet insisted, like his Norwegian counterpart, that they were “coming as friends" in order to aid Finland against the Soviets, and that Allied incursion would be limited to northern Sweden only. He then proceeded to inform the Swedish government of the British and Allied offer to them. The Swedish government would allow the Anglo-French troops through Swedish territory in order to aid the beleaguered Finns, in return the Allies would limit their troop movement in Sweden to the Iron Ore Line and the lands to its north. The ambassador then departed to return to his embassy, leaving the cabinet to discuss the proposal.

All members of the cabinet believed the proposal was a farce. They believed that if the British were allowed to occupy the railway; they would seize control of the iron ore mines. However, rejection of the proposal would almost certainly mean further escalation with the Allies into full-blown war.

Foreign minister, Christian Günther, was the first to comment. He believed that accepting the proposal would likely result in a German retaliation against Sweden. He pointed out that the Swedish air force was nowhere near capable of taking on the Luftwaffe and that the Germans were capable of securing “immediate and complete domination in the air” [1] and could destroy every city in the country. His sentiments were echoed by defence minister, Per Edvin Sköld, who also said that Sweden’s six army divisions would be hard-pressed if faced with war due to equipment shortages. Every member of the cabinet opposed granting control of the Iron Ore Line to the Allies, although some members were more open to compromise than others. Eventually, a decision was made. The Swedish army’s six divisions would be fully mobilised and more troops would be sent north in case of continued escalation. The Riksdag would be informed of ongoing events and the Swedish government would let the Allies know that they were willing to “use any means available to us to defend our neutrality and independence” but would continue to negotiate with the Allies in the hopes of defusing the situation.

View attachment 692380
Christian Günther, Swedish Minister of Foreign Affairs

View attachment 692382
Per Edvin Sköld, Swedish Minister of Defence

That afternoon, the Riksdag met for an emergency session to determine Sweden’s response to the Allied (mostly British) invasion in the north. A national emergency was soon declared, and the British demands would be rejected and the government’s request for mobilisation was approved. The Anglo-Swedish War Trade Agreement signed in December 1939 [2], was also annulled. Despite this, negotiations with the British government continued, scheduled for the next day.

At 17:30 Stockholm time, Prime Minister Per Albin Hansson went on Sveriges Radio to announce the invasion of their country and their response. He announced that a state of emergency had been declared and that the armed forces were to be fully mobilised, including the calling up of reservists. Notably left out of the broadcast were the continued negotiations with the British since Hansson wished to avoid provoking either the Germans or the Soviets into retaliating against Sweden. Following his speech, civil defence announcements were made stating that the air raid sirens would be tested that evening (9 March) at 19:00. All non-essential public gatherings were prohibited, and cinemas, theatres and sporting events were closed until further notice. Churches and schools, however, would remain open. All those who were listening were now aware that Sweden was preparing itself for war. Hansson left the studios with tears in his eyes, knowing that it was now unlikely that war could be prevented.

View attachment 692377
Hansson delivering his war speech to the Swedish people, 9 March 1940

The next morning, the cabinet again met with Mallet. The atmosphere was colder than ever. Mallet, who had privately opposed the invasion, believing a neutral Sweden to of greatest aid to the Allies, but nonetheless doing as his government had told him to, again reiterated the British offer. Again, the Swedish government rejected the advances. With the collapse of negotiations, and the continued escalation of fighting in the north, meant an end to attempts to keep Sweden out of the war. Mallet was ordered to leave Stockholm and diplomatic relations between Sweden and the United Kingdom were severed. Relations with France were also cut.

Later than afternoon, a flight of British Hawker Hurricanes from No. 46 Squadron took off from Narvik Airport in Framnes and made their way across Swedish airspace and eventually reached the frontlines. Once near Swedish lines, the aircraft dived and began to strafe the Swedish positions, causing damages and killing several Swedish soldiers. Whilst not a large-scale attack, it signified that Sweden was now an adversary in the eyes of the Allies, forcing Sweden into a war for the first time since 1815. Due to supply problems on both sides, the frontlines began to bog down into a stalemate with neither side launching major attacks on the other, for now that is.

View attachment 692391
Swedish front, as of 13 March 1940

Two days later, on the 12th, Finland signed the Moscow Peace Treaty. The Winter War was over, and with it the Allied excuse for intervention in Scandinavia in the first place.

The treaty forced the Finns to cede the following the the Soviet Union:
- The Rybachy peninsula
- The Gulf of Finland islands of Suursaari, Tytärsaari, Lavansaari, Peninsaari and Seiskari
- Part of the Salla region
- Approximately half of Finnish Karelia, including the city of Viipuri.

Additionally, the port of Hanko was to be leased as a naval base for the Soviet Baltic Fleet for 30 years.

View attachment 692389
Finnish territorial concessions to the Soviet Union as stated in
the Moscow Peace Treaty, signed 12 March 1940

The brutal terms shocked the Finns and saw condemnation from Britain and France, but with the military situation quickly deteriorating, the Finns had no choice but to sign. When forced to sign, Finnish President Kyösti Kallio quoted the Book of Zechariah by saying “May my hand, which is forced to sign such a paper, wither” [3].

By 13 March 1940, war had undoubtedly come to Scandinavia.

Announcement
Sorry for the sporadic upload schedule but I'm very busy at the moment with my studies. I try to upload when I can but this isn't taking priority right now. So right now, the best I can do is a new update once per week or two. Thanks for being so patient in waiting.

Footnotes
- [1] Günther said the same about the Luftwaffe in February 1940 in OTL
- [2] OTL agreement still signed here.
- [3] This was a real quote of from Kallio.

Comments?
RL before TL’s.
 
Great Chamberlain. You have really destroyed rest of that reputation what you had. No tonly you allowed Hitler to take Sudeteland and invade Czechoslovakia, now you invaded two peaceful democratic nations who just wanted remain neutral. And you are ready go to war with another one.
 
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Two days later, on the 12th, Finland signed the Moscow Peace Treaty. The Winter War was over, and with it the Allied excuse for intervention in Scandinavia in the first place.

The treaty forced the Finns to cede the following the the Soviet Union:
- The Rybachy peninsula
- The Gulf of Finland islands of Suursaari, Tytärsaari, Lavansaari, Peninsaari and Seiskari
- Part of the Salla region
- Approximately half of Finnish Karelia, including the city of Viipuri.
What about the Petsamo nickel mines?

When the war started, the mines were being developed by Inco, the Canadian company that operated the big Sudbury nickel mine in Ontario. The Soviets occupied the mines in 1939-1940, but withdrew in 1940, partly due to British pressure. (When they retook the area in 1944, they paid Inco CAN$22M for its lease rights at Petsamo.)

That's OTL. ITTL, Britain is at war with the USSR and has no leverage. Also, British troops are in northern Norway, adjacent to the Petsamo region. Flashpoint?
 
What about the Petsamo nickel mines?

When the war started, the mines were being developed by Inco, the Canadian company that operated the big Sudbury nickel mine in Ontario. The Soviets occupied the mines in 1939-1940, but withdrew in 1940, partly due to British pressure. (When they retook the area in 1944, they paid Inco CAN$22M for its lease rights at Petsamo.)

That's OTL. ITTL, Britain is at war with the USSR and has no leverage. Also, British troops are in northern Norway, adjacent to the Petsamo region. Flashpoint?
Thanks for the info regarding Petsamo, I’ve edited the chapter as a result.

In regards to Norway, the furthest north British troops are as of March 13 ITTL is Narvik. In my reasoning, there wouldn’t be enough time to rush across northern Norway to the Finnish border before the Finns peace out.
 
Thanks for the info regarding Petsamo, I’ve edited the chapter as a result.

In regards to Norway, the furthest north British troops are as of March 13 ITTL is Narvik. In my reasoning, there wouldn’t be enough time to rush across northern Norway to the Finnish border before the Finns peace out.

Frankly i found difficult to see the winter war outcome in practice being as OTL, not only the Anglo-French will have send help to the Finnish making the war longer and much costlier for the URSS (as other had pointed out in more detail) but the mere presence or intention to sent entente troops in scandinavia will have greatly improved Helsinky negotiation position and bring a sense of urgency in Stalin and so asking so draconian terms will have been much harder...in poor words, what's the incentive for Finland to sign that kind of treaty if they know that help is coming (or at least there is the general perception of this).

Basically with big change like the URSS being in the Axis at the beginning of the winter war it's hard to believe that things will have gone as OTL, the Finnish will have been helped unlike OTL and we have enough thread in the site that show that even a little will have been a great improvement for them and will have bleed the soviets even more, making the war longer
 
Frankly i found difficult to see the winter war outcome in practice being as OTL, not only the Anglo-French will have send help to the Finnish making the war longer and much costlier for the URSS (as other had pointed out in more detail) but the mere presence or intention to sent entente troops in scandinavia will have greatly improved Helsinky negotiation position and bring a sense of urgency in Stalin and so asking so draconian terms will have been much harder...in poor words, what's the incentive for Finland to sign that kind of treaty if they know that help is coming (or at least there is the general perception of this).

Basically with big change like the URSS being in the Axis at the beginning of the winter war it's hard to believe that things will have gone as OTL, the Finnish will have been helped unlike OTL and we have enough thread in the site that show that even a little will have been a great improvement for them and will have bleed the soviets even more, making the war longer
Sorry to here you aren’t a fan of how the Winter War ends here. If you could send me a link to some of the threads you’ve mentioned it would definitely help.

My thoughts are that the war would go much as in OTL. This is since the Soviets occupied Petsamo early on meaning that imports into the country would have to go through the Baltic Sea or Scandinavia. This may have been possible, but I don’t know enough to be certain.

I can see the Finns being optimistic about the prospects of Allied help after Operation Silver, until they got bogged down in Sweden. Overall, I’m not sure the military situation would have changed enough ITTL to change the outcome.

In OTL, Soviet peace terms were harsh since Stalin wanted to avoid allowing the Finns natural defences. But again, if you know more than me about the Winter War could you send me some links to the threads you mentioned?

Thank you
 
Sorry to here you aren’t a fan of how the Winter War ends here. If you could send me a link to some of the threads you’ve mentioned it would definitely help.

My thoughts are that the war would go much as in OTL. This is since the Soviets occupied Petsamo early on meaning that imports into the country would have to go through the Baltic Sea or Scandinavia. This may have been possible, but I don’t know enough to be certain.

I can see the Finns being optimistic about the prospects of Allied help after Operation Silver, until they got bogged down in Sweden. Overall, I’m not sure the military situation would have changed enough ITTL to change the outcome.

In OTL, Soviet peace terms were harsh since Stalin wanted to avoid allowing the Finns natural defences. But again, if you know more than me about the Winter War could you send me some links to the threads you mentioned?

Thank you

If you want to know more i suggest to ask to Drakofinn as he is one of the best informed here regarding Finnish situation during this period

It's not that i'm not fan or i dislike it, it's just that with a pod like that, things will be very different; with the URSS formally at war with the entente, there will be a lot more pressure on Norway and Sweden to 'look the other way' and frankly from what i know, the Finnish were so starved of equipment that anything will be a great improvement in the situation.
As other said earlier, just a bombardier and fighter squadron will have tilted the air warfare towards the finnish and greatly obstacolated soviet war effort, hell just having Finland as an official co-belligerant mean a lot of change on the diplomatic side
Regarding Sweden, honestly i doubt that they will give more than a nominal opposition, their situation is between a rock and an hard place as fighting Britain and France mean that the only other games in town are Nazi Germany and Communist URSS and this mean that Moscow and Berlin can simply go into Sweden to 'protect' her...honestly at this stage better get along with the Britsh while protesting (and so getting at least some level of protection against something much much worse) than openly fight them
 
Why did Britain and France not bomb Baku yet?
They already had plans to do so during OTLs Winter War, now that they are at war with the USSR I see no reason why they wouldn't.
 

ferdi254

Banned
The Swedes will absolutely not like having Kiruna occupied. This is their number one export money bringer. And if they do nit fight the Germans will be more than happy to „assist“ them.

And actually the allied troops are in a terrible situation. There is just this railway track to get supplies to them and just one small harbor. Rommel found out the hard way OTL that this is not a good position. And nobody would have believed it was done to help the fins. Maybe a regiment, msybe even less you can supply via Narvik, Kiruna and then the northern end of the Baltic.
 
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