Nice! Thank you for your hard work, I look forward to seeing what you have for us in this restart.
Visconti Victorious: Medieval Italian Unification
- Thread starter The Undead Martyr
- Start date
Will you be restarting under a new thread? If so, please inform and link it here when you start. I have fond memories of this TL.
I will probably be starting a new thread, and linking it here.
I've certainly got fond memories of this as well. It's both my first timeline and my first or second longest by duration and length.
I've certainly got fond memories of this as well. It's both my first timeline and my first or second longest by duration and length.
I also welcome the re-birth of this TL.
My recommendation - as it was also in the original TL - is to ensure that the raise of the Visconti state is less meteoric and more paced
I also welcome the re-birth of this TL.
My recommendation - as it was also in the original TL - is to ensure that the raise of the Visconti state is less meteoric and more paced
Indeed, I'm pushing the divergence back to his elder son Azzone surviving, for precisely that reason- as a blank canvas, I can shape him into a capable heir, and his presence as a capable lieutenant for his father in Friuli would immediately affect the 1390 war, allowing a decisive victory over Carrara and the Bolognese. Mesquita's biography makes the point that the long war against Florence was a major setback for Milan, and financially draining; had Milan taken Bologna in 1390 as GG initially hoped then he is in a much better position to starve Florence into submission in the years ahead. By 1400 he would be in control of Lombardy, Tuscany and the Romagna and have a marriage alliance with Ladislaus of Naples to drive out the Catalans and subdue the Pope.
The electoral Title was typically reserved for the King of "Germany." The Italian Crown was a separate constituent title of the HRE.
Azzone is the second son of Giangaleazzo, the elder was named Giangaleazzo too.
At this stage, you might even postulate that both the two elder sons of his marriage survive (and in such a case, GG2 would be schooled to master statecraft, while Azzone would be chosen for a military career).
The reason for the survival of both (neither of them died as an infant) might be because they avoided Pavia and Vigevano during the summer, spending the hottest part of the year in one of the Visconti castles on the Appennine.
Bonus point if also the third male son (Carlo) survives at birth, which means that also Isabelle de Valois would survive.
Maybe, taking a leaf from OTL, it is at this point that GG makes his famous promise to the Virgin Mary to name all of his future children Maria: Carlo Maria would be the first.
Bernabo insisted on marrying one of his daughters to Gian Galeazzo's heir; Gian Galeazzo II would be 19 and presumably married in 1385, when Bernabo was seized and overthrown. I suppose if the marriage was scheduled sooner, say in 1381 when he would be 14, then GG could use the wedding to seize Bernabo and his sons and assume the government of Lombardy four years ahead of schedule; if all of Bernabo's sons attend the ceremony then that would tie up quite a few loose ends. Presumably he would then seek a match with either a French or German bride- most likely a Wittelsbach of Bavaria, as they would be the obvious rivals of the Luxemburgs and Austrians, and to defuse tensions with the duke, who had taken a daughter of Bernabo as his wife. Venice and Austria were at war in 1382, and Milan might well build on her historical anti-Carraran alliance to win the Venetians to his cause and conquer Trento alongside the Swiss and Bavarians. Azzone would presumably win the hand of Joanna II of Naples and rule jointly with her in Sicily, Croatia, and Provence after they are conquered, and Carlo Maria would be married to a daughter or sister of John of Armagnac, to turn the count away from Carlo Visconti, as his army would be better used against Florence than on her behalf; I think that Tuscany would become an appanage under the Kingdom of Lombardy and Gian Galeazzo deliberately attempt to maintain unity of government in Padania. Alternately a march of Verona/Friuli/Treviso might re emerge as another appanage, but it seems too sensitive, and Venice likely to forcefully resist any encroachment by the Milanese.
Presuming that Louis of Orleans is successfully enticed into Italy via the offer of Bologna, then his "Kingdom of Adria" would in practice probably become a Lombard protectorate after he departs. Rome, whether captured by Clement or not, is likely to be forced into Milan's control, as the combination of Ladislaus and Gian Galeazzo is too powerful for a papacy weakened by the Schism to seriously resist, particularly if the Venetians are brought in by concessions in the Adriatic and Friuli. Spoleto seems like another necessary appanage, but there aren't enough sons- perhaps Azzone rules it in his own right, instead of usurping Joanna's rights in Naples; the moribund papal administration would have to be reconstituted as a secular government for the Visconti. Historically the Popes did not exercise meaningful authority in Romagna and the Marche until the early 16th century, so it would be the work of a few generations I think to subdue the princes of the Church.
Presuming that Louis of Orleans is successfully enticed into Italy via the offer of Bologna, then his "Kingdom of Adria" would in practice probably become a Lombard protectorate after he departs. Rome, whether captured by Clement or not, is likely to be forced into Milan's control, as the combination of Ladislaus and Gian Galeazzo is too powerful for a papacy weakened by the Schism to seriously resist, particularly if the Venetians are brought in by concessions in the Adriatic and Friuli. Spoleto seems like another necessary appanage, but there aren't enough sons- perhaps Azzone rules it in his own right, instead of usurping Joanna's rights in Naples; the moribund papal administration would have to be reconstituted as a secular government for the Visconti. Historically the Popes did not exercise meaningful authority in Romagna and the Marche until the early 16th century, so it would be the work of a few generations I think to subdue the princes of the Church.
A GOT-style "red wedding" looks a bit too rich, even for Renaissance
The Bavarian Wittelsbach never relented in their feud against Gian Galeazzo."A Luxemburg bride might be more interesting, given GG's interest in Friuli and Trentino (and also in gaining a ducal title from the emperor).
I wouldn't be so eager to invite so many French into Italy: in particular, I wouldn't set up a "Kingdom of Adria". Romagna could be split between the Malatesta and Venice, while Bologna and Imola should remain in direct possession.
Ultimately, the potential synergies of an alliance long-term between GG and Venice should always be dominant in the strategies that the Visconti pursue in Northern Italy.
I would think that Bernabo would be seized coming to the wedding, rather than at it, and then as OTL die of "natural causes" in prison. He was under the Imperial Ban, and I think also an excommunicate; so long as the ceremony of Holy Matrimony itself was not infringed upon I think Gian Galeazzo could smooth things over with the Pope (well, the Roman Pope, since Clement was a creature of France and not likely to rock the boat vis a vis Milan).
It's precisely because of the feud that the marriage makes sense. Bavaria is the rival to Austrias Habsburgs, who are if anything even more hostile to Milan due to conflicts in Trent and Friuli. Duke Albert invaded Italy alongside the Carrara in 1390, contributing to the fall of Padua by blocking a relief army sent to support the citadel. Still he proved quite amenable to Visconti overtures and left Italy shortly thereafter without giving battle. The prospective bride is the sister in law of the emperor- although I could mess with the marriages, averting the childless marriages of Wenceslaus and IIRC the Duke of Gelre, neither seem particularly useful beyond making things less complicated for myself. Thus Gian Galeazzo's son would be in laws to Emperor Wenceslaus, the Duke of Bavaria and Holland, the Duke of Burgundy and the Duke of Gelre, and eventually the House of Lancaster if the historical marriages go through. In any case, event if there are Luxemburg princesses of age, I doubt that Gian Galeazzo could win one. The German nobles were quite dubious of the upjumped parvenus of Italy.
GG was quite eager to bring France into Italy in 1390; mainly he wanted French troops to conquer Florence and Clement to give him a crown. Historically it came to nothing (I haven't gotten to the negotiations at Leulingham yet, but my books on the HYW insist that the French were unable to fund or provision the planned army and concerned at being attacked by the English in the interim). He took a strongly pro French orientation, outright promising to declare for Clement in Avignon after the French conquered Bologna.
My impression is that he wanted to consolidate Padania- Lombardy and the Mark of Treviso were his original objectives, and later Tuscany was added due to Florentine hostility and the continued appeals of Siena- and claim the Imperial crown of Italy. He was prepared to cede Perugia and even Bologna to the French as part of his negotiations with Louis; as his treaty with Orleans supposedly demanded Louis' heirs take the Visconti name if and when they inherited Milan. He seems to have viewed his son in law as a tool of his own dynastic ambitions, and wanted to bring France in to offload security concerns in places like Piedmont or the Romagna to a friendly power. If I had to guess, he understood how fragile his state was, and wanted to tie down the French in Italy to secure his own niche in the north; in the long run the Pope, the Emperor, the Venetians and other local powers were likely to attempt to destroy him and his heirs, so he sought to claim a royal title, secure the backing of France, and expel the Papacy from the Romagna to secure his grip over Lombardy itself.
Fundamentally while I agree that Venice is the most useful ally, Gian Galeazzo was not immediately prepared to fully relinquish Friuli or the Signoritti of Eastern Lombardy. Venice intrigued to support Bologna, Padua, Mantua and Ferrara, but only reactively to preserve their independence. A reconciliation is possible but would require a modus vivendi in the east, probably the cession of at least part of the Carrarese domains in Veneto.
It's precisely because of the feud that the marriage makes sense. Bavaria is the rival to Austrias Habsburgs, who are if anything even more hostile to Milan due to conflicts in Trent and Friuli. Duke Albert invaded Italy alongside the Carrara in 1390, contributing to the fall of Padua by blocking a relief army sent to support the citadel. Still he proved quite amenable to Visconti overtures and left Italy shortly thereafter without giving battle. The prospective bride is the sister in law of the emperor- although I could mess with the marriages, averting the childless marriages of Wenceslaus and IIRC the Duke of Gelre, neither seem particularly useful beyond making things less complicated for myself. Thus Gian Galeazzo's son would be in laws to Emperor Wenceslaus, the Duke of Bavaria and Holland, the Duke of Burgundy and the Duke of Gelre, and eventually the House of Lancaster if the historical marriages go through. In any case, event if there are Luxemburg princesses of age, I doubt that Gian Galeazzo could win one. The German nobles were quite dubious of the upjumped parvenus of Italy.
GG was quite eager to bring France into Italy in 1390; mainly he wanted French troops to conquer Florence and Clement to give him a crown. Historically it came to nothing (I haven't gotten to the negotiations at Leulingham yet, but my books on the HYW insist that the French were unable to fund or provision the planned army and concerned at being attacked by the English in the interim). He took a strongly pro French orientation, outright promising to declare for Clement in Avignon after the French conquered Bologna.
My impression is that he wanted to consolidate Padania- Lombardy and the Mark of Treviso were his original objectives, and later Tuscany was added due to Florentine hostility and the continued appeals of Siena- and claim the Imperial crown of Italy. He was prepared to cede Perugia and even Bologna to the French as part of his negotiations with Louis; as his treaty with Orleans supposedly demanded Louis' heirs take the Visconti name if and when they inherited Milan. He seems to have viewed his son in law as a tool of his own dynastic ambitions, and wanted to bring France in to offload security concerns in places like Piedmont or the Romagna to a friendly power. If I had to guess, he understood how fragile his state was, and wanted to tie down the French in Italy to secure his own niche in the north; in the long run the Pope, the Emperor, the Venetians and other local powers were likely to attempt to destroy him and his heirs, so he sought to claim a royal title, secure the backing of France, and expel the Papacy from the Romagna to secure his grip over Lombardy itself.
Fundamentally while I agree that Venice is the most useful ally, Gian Galeazzo was not immediately prepared to fully relinquish Friuli or the Signoritti of Eastern Lombardy. Venice intrigued to support Bologna, Padua, Mantua and Ferrara, but only reactively to preserve their independence. A reconciliation is possible but would require a modus vivendi in the east, probably the cession of at least part of the Carrarese domains in Veneto.
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Ehm, things like that (banquets ending in deaths/arrest of the guest) happened more than once in the Renaissance, trust meA GOT-style "red wedding" looks a bit too rich, even for Renaissance
The Bavarian Wittelsbach never relented in their feud against Gian Galeazzo."A Luxemburg bride might be more interesting, given GG's interest in Friuli and Trentino (and also in gaining a ducal title from the emperor).
I wouldn't be so eager to invite so many French into Italy: in particular, I wouldn't set up a "Kingdom of Adria". Romagna could be split between the Malatesta and Venice, while Bologna and Imola should remain in direct possession.
Ultimately, the potential synergies of an alliance long-term between GG and Venice should always be dominant in the strategies that the Visconti pursue in Northern Italy.
In the Renaissance, yes, but during the Middle Ages such a flagrant breach of both guest rite and the holy sacrament of marriage would have gotten a guaranteed excommunication.
Now the late 14th century is the beginning of the decline of these institutions (for starters, which of the two popes is doing the excommunicating?) and Italy was less attached to feudal norms, but it was hardly a meaningless concern. Literal crusades got called in this period against rulers who annoyed the popes.
Sure, but on a more sedated pace, and not during a marriage banquet, with the father of the groom eliminating the father of the bride and all his male sons.
Even when GG carried out his coup against his uncle, there was no blood immediately spilled
I'mma just leave this here about the problems with the Red Wedding in GOT, and why the episodes it was based on didn't happen until 1440 (the Black Dinner) and 1692 (the Glencoe Massacre). The tl;dr version is as follows: Primus, neither of them took place at a wedding, because desecrating one of the sacraments is serious shit and, Secundus, by that time not only had the power of the church to condemn such violations of social norms and make the condemnation hurt deteriorated but the society that placed such an emphasis on the duties and protections of hospitality was in decline. Also, Tertius, the one episode that might offer a proper example (the St. Bartholomew's Day Massacre), doesn't apply because the necessary preconditions therefore hadn't occurred, namely the Reformation.
https://acoup.blog/2019/06/04/new-a...-game-of-thrones-and-the-middle-ages-part-ii/
https://acoup.blog/2019/06/04/new-a...-game-of-thrones-and-the-middle-ages-part-ii/
Immediate deaths maybe was too much and the episodes to which I was thinking happened a century late BUT one of them was definitely at a wedding banquet (Ferdinand I of Naples dealing with the rebellious barons of his kingdom). The other was still later (Cesare Borgia at Senigallia) and not a wedding (and maybe neither a banquet but still a false reconciliation)Sure, but on a more sedated pace, and not during a marriage banquet, with the father of the groom eliminating the father of the bride and all his male sons.
Even when GG carried out his coup against his uncle, there was no blood immediately spilled
It's also an issue in the books as well. Tywin Lannister had Tyrion's wife Tysha a peasant girl gang-raped by his soldiers after learning of their marriage. He not only traumatized his son, but committed something so horrible and vile. If a nobleman did something like this in the middle ages they would be facing a massive revolt on their hands. They would probably also face excommunication from the Church officials and something like an Imperial Ban which basically declares the noble an outlaw. Peasants/serfs had actual rights in the medieval era despite society being highly stratified.