USS Indianapolis vs Panzerschiff Admiral Graff Spee?

[NHBL]

Perhaps it would be a more interesting fight if we set it in '41, with a pocket battleship loose at the same time as Bismarck. The pocket battleship engages a convoy escorted by the heavy units of your choice, such as a heavy cruiser. Neither force can refuse action; the convoy needs to be protected, and the pocket battleship can't outrun a real cruiser.

We've just ditched any anachronisms, and the Americans have more planes, but the Germans have the Arado with much more firepower.

 

[SsgtC]

Let just say, this is highly doubtful.

Not really? The British guns fired a 256 pound AP shell, the American guns fired a 335 pound AP shell from a longer gun with a bigger charge giving it better performance.

 

[Stephanus Meteu]

This comparisson is flawed as a six year gap in technology is equal to what the Iraqi forces in 1992 faced against the US led coalition and we all know what happened then. Better have either USS Indianapolis reduced to a 1939 state, or Graf Spee hypothetically to a 1945 state (Which will include the developped, but never installed electronics of the contemporary German Navy.)

A ship to ship comparisson: The USN 8 inch//55 in the tripple turret model 3b allowed only to fire 3 rounds a minute at best, though normally 2 rounds a minute was more practical and did not allow individual gunbarrels to elevate as all were clutched in a single craddle, where Graf Spee's 28 cm/52 SK C/28 in the tripple mounting Drh/LC-28 used, allowed for 2.5 rounds a minute normally, though more practically 2 rounds a minute. So both were to normally have an equal rate of fire for each gun, making the weight of broadside in german favour (2x6x 300kg opposed to 2x9x 118kg, not even counting the secondary battery weight) Effective gunrage also favoured the german ship, with far more accurate guns and less dispersion, compared to the know problems on the USN cruisers of prewar design.

USN cruisers normally would fight at long range , which in this case might be a wise choice, though one with not the best results still, due to the inaccuracy of the USN 8 inch/55 in the tripple 3b turrets. At close range the German ship was in a beter posstion to deal damage as well, due to its design and turtleback protective scheme, as well as heavier secondary outfit and most important: torpedoes, which the US ship did not carry at all.

USS Houston is credited with a greater than 5 rpm rof in actual battle with the same gun.

If firing with a good radar range fix, don't need to worry as much about spotting the shots and adjustment.

The dispersion and accuracy problems of the early mount and Mark 9 gun seem to have been fixed via changing to the Mark 14 gun (sacrificed a bit of velocity for more consistency) and the mounts I think gained delay coils and full RPC. They were rather horrible as built, 2000 yard pattern sizes and such...

Not the same Guns S&G had 28cm 54.5 Caliber guns while the Pzb had 52 caliber guns.
whichever side gets the early hits will win and thats a gamble with the Germans having a slight advantage with higher velocity flat trajectory guns.

The Germans are curiously stocked with mostly HE shells, which I suppose is a result of the commerce raiding mission. The AP shell the Germans have isn't exactly the greatest, either, not that it matters much against Indy's 5" armour, as the Germans specified penetrating ability of 5.5" at combat range.

US 8"/L55 Mk 14
Range 31,860 yards@41 degrees 89lbs propellant, AP mk 21 335lbs APC 5 lbs Comp D bursting charge

UK 8"/L50 Mk VIII
Range 30,650 yards@45 degrees 66lbs propellant, SAPC 256lbs APC 11.5 lbs bursting charge

Without plugging in numbers into a penetration calculator, the US gun should be able to penetrate far more armor with the mk 21, while UK gun had bigger bursting charge.

Since the PB had little armor, that's not a great advantage. US did have the SP Common Shell, that was 260 lbs, with a 10.38 pound bursting charge, that seems a close match for the RN round

There's not that much difference between the guns, honestly, if the US uses the SP Common shell

At range, both could hole the Belt, Deck and even Turret armor of a Deutschland

Wrong shell.

The Mark 9 or 14 could probably fire the heavier shell, but it doesn't fit in the hoist and handling equipment. The equipment for the longer shell doesn't appear until the new turrets on the Baltimore class are designed.

Until then the 260 lb AP shell is what is in use on US CA types, and so you need to start looking at details of the shell design for penetrating characteristics and terminal ballistics. The US tended to favor long range shooting, so my guess is the US shell is probably optimized for striking at angles such as that, but that is beyond my expertise.

 

[CalBear]

Who would win; German battlecruiser Scharnhorst in her 1943 configuration, or the USS Constitution in her top of the line 1797 configuration?


How about Scharnhorst and Tirpitz, but the Constitution is pushing them against the coast?

How about Scharnhorst supported by Prinz Eugen, and Admiral Hipper?



You numpty.

You REALLY don't want to go down this path.

 

[Zheng He]

IIRC at the time of the Battle Graf Spee's Arado was unserviceable and I think it may have actually been ditched over board several weeks earlier as a result

So Graf Spee had no aircraft on 13th Dec 1939

An Imp Star Deuce, the standard capital ship of the Imperial Fleet during Episodes IV, V, and VI. Good point on the Mon Cal cruisers, those were not standard so let's say the one that was Admiral Ackbar's flagship during the Battle of Endor.

 

[kalamona]

Not really? The British guns fired a 256 pound AP shell, the American guns fired a 335 pound AP shell from a longer gun with a bigger charge giving it better performance.

Ajax was a 6" cruiser and AGS engineering space was intact. The US shell was probably more effective than the UK one tough...

 

[Cryhavoc101]

Whosoever shell was better Exeter's single 8" Citadel hit mission killed GS - she was half a world away from a friendly base with a days fuel supply!

 

[James Ricker]

Far be it for me to question your otherwise excellent post but the Ajax was a 6" armed cruiser...just saying.

Oops

 

[James Ricker]

Ajax was a 6" cruiser and AGS engineering space was intact. The US shell was probably more effective than the UK one tough...

The fuel purification plant was in the engineering section.

 

[CalBear]

In a hypothetical battle situation who will win, USS Indianapolis (in her 1945 configuration) or the Graf Spee (respectively in her 1939 configuration)

Round 1:
Battle takes place in the North Atlantic,with optimal sea conditions (clear skies, calm seas etc). Both crews have already assumed battle stations after more or less detecting each other on radar.

Round 2:
Basically a alternate version of the Battle of the River Plate. Replace Exeter, Ajax and Achilles with Indianapolis and any two Brooklyn Class light cruisers (Brooklyn's are in 1945 configuration). Same location and conditions as the battle in OTL.

Round 3:
Graf Spee and her sister ship, Scheer stumble across USS Indianapolis and USS Alaska. Otherwise, same battle conditions and scenario as in Round 1.

Indy one on one is a losing proposition, even with late war radar. She would have a better chance than Exeter in a one v. one, largely thank to 3 extra guns and close to double the armor, but that is about the best you can say, poor chance vs. almost no chance

Indy with two Brooklyns is close to slam dunk. Not only does the U.S. CA have 50% more main battery (3x3 vs 3x2) EACH USN CL has effectively the same firepower as both RN ships at River Plate (Leanders 4x2, Brooklyns 5x3) and has a higher RoF to boot. The USN cruisers lack torpedos, but none of the RN torpedoes actually struck the Graf, so that may be a moot point.

With the Alaska (ICK!), not even a contest. May as well ask how Graf Spee would do against a KGV, except the U.S. 12"/50 Mark 8 outperforms the RN 14"/45 Mark VII for armor penetration and Alaska is 5 knots faster. The Alaskas were designed to kill ships like the Graf Spee and Scharnorst (of course by the time the ships were laid down there weren't any panzerschiffs left to kill, but I digress) and had one of the truly great naval rifles ever built to handle the task. The U.S. CB couldn't turn for shit, but by God they had one hell of a nice main battery.

 

[Jellico]

Who would win; German battlecruiser Scharnhorst in her 1943 configuration, or the USS Constitution in her top of the line 1797 configuration?

1945 was chosen because it was Indy's loss date. Constitution is still in commission so...

 

[FBKampfer]

1945 was chosen because it was Indy's loss date. Constitution is still in commission so...

Fine, the mostly disarmed, under-crewed 2019 configuration.

 

[Captain Seafort]

An Imp Star Deuce, the standard capital ship of the Imperial Fleet during Episodes IV, V, and VI.

Standard fleet escort maybe.

Good point on the Mon Cal cruisers, those were not standard so let's say the one that was Admiral Ackbar's flagship during the Battle of Endor.

Ouch. One on one against a ship ten times its size is not going to go well for the ISD.

 

[HMS Warspite]

At long range of ~20km, graf Spee with his optical range finder will be unable to range effectively, limited by atmospheric effects of 0.3arcsec at best (and may be up to 1 arcsec at worst), meaning ~70 meters radius best possible range errors for 6m base rangefinder. Indianapolis, with her radar rangefinder and automatic gunlaying, will be centering salvo accurately every time.

That is correct, though still much batter then an Indianapilis with no radar still at the same timeframe, In september 1939 USS Indianapolis lacked radar still, so NO RADAR and worse gunnery as a result.

 

[HMS Warspite]

The US 8" AP shell was Superior to the British 8" AP shell and the Ajax put one of those into the Graf Spee's engineering spaces.

US 8 inch shells after 1942, yes, not in 1939. Besides HMS Ajax was a leander class light cruiser with 6 inch guns. You are mistaken by HMS Exeter which was the 8 unch gunner at the fight with Graf Spee.

 

[James Ricker]

US 8 inch shells after 1942, yes, not in 1939. Besides HMS Ajax was a leander class light cruiser with 6 inch guns. You are mistaken by HMS Exeter which was the 8 unch gunner at the fight with Graf Spee.

Ooops

 

[marathag]

US 8 inch shells after 1942, yes, not in 1939

Anyplace that list what the US SP Common could penetrate vs the AP round with smaller bursting charge?

 

[Not James Stockdale]

The late war USN was putting its Clevelands into the CRURON roles where they were more likely to engage in surface action because the 6" triple mounts were so fast compared to any of the 8" mounts up until the Des Moines's automatics. I would take a Brooklyn or Cleveland 1v1 against a panzerschiffe rather than a Portland. The Baltimores did have a huge size advantage over the pre-war Treaty cruisers (more than 150% larger with the same number of guns) and had enough belt and turret armor to make it interesting if the fight isn't straight off the beam.

 

[Zheng He]

The late war USN was putting its Clevelands into the CRURON roles where they were more likely to engage in surface action because the 6" triple mounts were so fast compared to any of the 8" mounts up until the Des Moines's automatics. I would take a Brooklyn or Cleveland 1v1 against a panzerschiffe rather than a Portland. The Baltimores did have a huge size advantage over the pre-war Treaty cruisers (more than 150% larger with the same number of guns) and had enough belt and turret armor to make it interesting if the fight isn't straight off the beam.

Both the British and American navies made the whole light/heavy cruiser designation based solely on gun caliber look rather silly with the very powerful classes of "light" cruisers they made.

 

[FBKampfer]

Standard fleet escort maybe.



Ouch. One on one against a ship ten times its size is not going to go well for the ISD.

Home One was a cruiser. The Victory class filled the role of destroyer/frigate.

Most realistically we'd be looking at an Imperial class or Tector class, both of which should heavily out gun Home One considerably.

In a straight up slugging match, the ISD's always had the upper hand.