USS Indianapolis vs Panzerschiff Admiral Graff Spee?
Barry Bull
Donor
Given that Indy was not reliant on her floatplanes for spotting, a floatplane dogfight would render Graf in disadvantage in spotting.
I wonder if one can consider the loss of the Arado 196 to a seagull, kingfisher of seahawk the most saddest cause of a disadvantage in history.
This comparisson is flawed as a six year gap in technology is equal to what the Iraqi forces in 1992 faced against the US led coalition and we all know what happened then. Better have either USS Indianapolis reduced to a 1939 state, or Graf Spee hypothetically to a 1945 state (Which will include the developped, but never installed electronics of the contemporary German Navy.)
A ship to ship comparisson: The USN 8 inch//55 in the tripple turret model 3b allowed only to fire 3 rounds a minute at best, though normally 2 rounds a minute was more practical and did not allow individual gunbarrels to elevate as all were clutched in a single craddle, where Graf Spee's 28 cm/52 SK C/28 in the tripple mounting Drh/LC-28 used, allowed for 2.5 rounds a minute normally, though more practically 2 rounds a minute. So both were to normally have an equal rate of fire for each gun, making the weight of broadside in german favour (2x6x 300kg opposed to 2x9x 118kg, not even counting the secondary battery weight) Effective gunrage also favoured the german ship, with far more accurate guns and less dispersion, compared to the know problems on the USN cruisers of prewar design.
USN cruisers normally would fight at long range , which in this case might be a wise choice, though one with not the best results still, due to the inaccuracy of the USN 8 inch/55 in the tripple 3b turrets. At close range the German ship was in a beter posstion to deal damage as well, due to its design and turtleback protective scheme, as well as heavier secondary outfit and most important: torpedoes, which the US ship did not carry at all.
A ship to ship comparisson: The USN 8 inch//55 in the tripple turret model 3b allowed only to fire 3 rounds a minute at best, though normally 2 rounds a minute was more practical and did not allow individual gunbarrels to elevate as all were clutched in a single craddle, where Graf Spee's 28 cm/52 SK C/28 in the tripple mounting Drh/LC-28 used, allowed for 2.5 rounds a minute normally, though more practically 2 rounds a minute. So both were to normally have an equal rate of fire for each gun, making the weight of broadside in german favour (2x6x 300kg opposed to 2x9x 118kg, not even counting the secondary battery weight) Effective gunrage also favoured the german ship, with far more accurate guns and less dispersion, compared to the know problems on the USN cruisers of prewar design.
USN cruisers normally would fight at long range , which in this case might be a wise choice, though one with not the best results still, due to the inaccuracy of the USN 8 inch/55 in the tripple 3b turrets. At close range the German ship was in a beter posstion to deal damage as well, due to its design and turtleback protective scheme, as well as heavier secondary outfit and most important: torpedoes, which the US ship did not carry at all.
Last edited:
FBKampfer
Banned
Who would win; German battlecruiser Scharnhorst in her 1943 configuration, or the USS Constitution in her top of the line 1797 configuration?
How about Scharnhorst and Tirpitz, but the Constitution is pushing them against the coast?
How about Scharnhorst supported by Prinz Eugen, and Admiral Hipper?
You numpty.
How about Scharnhorst and Tirpitz, but the Constitution is pushing them against the coast?
How about Scharnhorst supported by Prinz Eugen, and Admiral Hipper?
You numpty.
trurle
Banned
At long range of ~20km, graf Spee with his optical range finder will be unable to range effectively, limited by atmospheric effects of 0.3arcsec at best (and may be up to 1 arcsec at worst), meaning ~70 meters radius best possible range errors for 6m base rangefinder. Indianapolis, with her radar rangefinder and automatic gunlaying, will be centering salvo accurately every time.
The US 8" AP shell was Superior to the British 8" AP shell and the Exeter put one of those into the Graf Spee's engineering spaces.
Last edited:
The German guns as of 1940 did disable and sink glorious in a long range initial shoot-out. Under optimal conditions, the optical fire controls are at the least disadvantage and one or more very long range hits is a possibility that could cripple Indianapolis before the fight begins. The penetration data reported for Indianapolis is not an effective range as graf speed would not offer a 90 degree angle of penetration.
If the fight sees the two ships I damaged at below 20 km of distance my bet goes to the Indy instead.
The fight with two more light cruisers is not a real fight, so my vote was for a one-on-one fight.
If the fight sees the two ships I damaged at below 20 km of distance my bet goes to the Indy instead.
The fight with two more light cruisers is not a real fight, so my vote was for a one-on-one fight.
hipper
Banned
Not the same Guns S&G had 28cm 54.5 Caliber guns while the Pzb had 52 caliber guns.
whichever side gets the early hits will win and thats a gamble with the Germans having a slight advantage with higher velocity flat trajectory guns.
Easy, the Constitution would fire one photon torpedo and blow away the German Cruisers, and probably chunk of the Earths crust, without even needing to enter orbit. /s
marathag
Banned
US 8"/L55 Mk 14
Range 31,860 yards@41 degrees 89lbs propellant, AP mk 21 335lbs APC 5 lbs Comp D bursting charge
UK 8"/L50 Mk VIII
Range 30,650 yards@45 degrees 66lbs propellant, SAPC 256lbs APC 11.5 lbs bursting charge
Without plugging in numbers into a penetration calculator, the US gun should be able to penetrate far more armor with the mk 21, while UK gun had bigger bursting charge.
Since the PB had little armor, that's not a great advantage. US did have the SP Common Shell, that was 260 lbs, with a 10.38 pound bursting charge, that seems a close match for the RN round
There's not that much difference between the guns, honestly, if the US uses the SP Common shell
At range, both could hole the Belt, Deck and even Turret armor of a Deutschland
IIRC at the time of the Battle Graf Spee's Arado was unserviceable and I think it may have actually been ditched over board several weeks earlier as a result
So Graf Spee had no aircraft on 13th Dec 1939
So Graf Spee had no aircraft on 13th Dec 1939
Depends heavily on the type of Mon Calamari Star Cruiser and the actual type of ISD
RodentRevolution
Banned
Far be it for me to question your otherwise excellent post but the Ajax was a 6" armed cruiser...just saying.
Last edited: