Una diferente ‘Plus Ultra’ - the Avís-Trastámara Kings of All Spain and the Indies (Updated 5/6)

Discussion in 'Alternate History Discussion: Before 1900' started by Torbald, Mar 1, 2017.

  1. Fernando III Well-Known Member

    Jan 17, 2017
    I like this ATL but I am guessing that you have butterflied all the pacific trade without Magallanes and the Portuguese colonizing the Phillipines.I would also suggest you to read about Phillip's plan to invade China just to give you ideas for future chapters
  2. Torbald þegn

    Jan 27, 2010
    Good! I hope to include in the China/Indochina update the kingdom of Celudão/Tondo/Luçon and its interesting position as an emergent, mostly independent state in the region kept afloat by its religious tolerance, strong maritime culture, and status as a regional mercenary provider similar to Switzerland.

    Right, more or less. Sumatra (most of it), Malaya, and (maybe) northern Borneo and the Mekong Delta may eventually coalesce into a primarily Islamic, Malay-speaking state during the age of colonialism/nationalism, with Java, Bali, and possibly some of Sumatra and/or Borneo being assembled into one state through some colonial interference.

    As for the Lesser Sunday Islands, Sulawesi, the Moluccas, and the OTL Philippines, I'm still juggling a few options in my head. Those regions are definitely going to be majority Catholic by the modern area, but the ethnolinguistic divisions will require some special attention from Spain. I can see the Lesser Sundas and Celebes/the Moluccas being melded together into two separate states with Portuguese or a Portuguese Creole being the official language while the individual indigenous languages have a healthy level of retention (similar to the languages of OTL modern Mexico's indigenous groups or OTL modern Philippines' plenitude of non-Tagalog languages).

    Thank you again, I understand there's a lot of threads in this TL that need fleshing out/explaining

    There should be a few Matteo Ricci/Michele Ruggieri/Alessandri Valignano counterparts, and I anticipate China (or at least parts of it) should be much more open than IOTL.

    And yes, I had thought about making such a list a while back, but thanks for reminding me and sorry for any confusion the lack of one may have caused :)

    Since France and Spain are going to be at each other's throats again pretty soon, the Pyrenees are going to be somewhat chaotic for a while, especially considering there's also going to be a larger Protestant community in the vicinity following the expulsion of some pietist/semi-gnostic groups from Spain after the Church reforms of the Catholic Monarchs and Miguel. Whatever outcome of the conflicts between Spain and France, Spain will consider it a priority to cut the French off from all the major passes and chokepoints of the Pyrenees.

    St Francis Xavier, here known as Francisco de Jasso, is actually in the Americas right now and is going to be a driving force in the conversion of the Chichimecs and thus also in an early conclusion of TTL's counterpart of the Chichimeca/Mixtón War.

    However, OTL Francis Xavier and the Jesuits are going to have plenty of zealous counterparts in the East Indies, India, and the Orient ITTL - especially following the linking up of New Spain to the Portuguese East Indies and the consequent arrival of the erudite, culturally inquisitive Gregorians (Bernardino de Sahagún's new order ITTL).

    I was actually going to include a picture of A Famosa in the last update along with a brief description of Portuguese fortifications in the East Indies, but decided against it for the sake of brevity. But yes, it still exists and will continue to be built up in the coming centuries.

    Although I'm not entirely sure what they'll be yet, there are definitely going to be more Portuguese/Spanish influences on Japanese culture than tempura shrimp and a handful of Catholics in Kyushu. I think also that, despite Spanish attempts to limit TTL's Manila-Acapulco trade to its own ships, the Japanese will probably become the most consistent contraband traders in that network. We'll probably be seeing tea houses and rock gardens in TTL's Acapulco and Lima before the close of the 16th century.

    All this will probably delay Japanese unification much longer than IOTL, but will also probably bring Japan up to speed with the West technologically much quicker than IOTL.

    I think it's likely that the daimyos supported by Spain will be pretty well-supplied militarily, which will serve to counteract the fact that they're also going to be outnumbered. I imagine the Christian Japanese will also possess superior levels of experience than their non-Christian brethren due to the likelihood of Spain preferring them as mercenaries.

    I think Spain will be out of its element if it attempts to meddle directly in the Yellow Sea, but I really like the idea of early modern Spanish ironclads and katyusha-like shock rockets being used in conjunction with the tercio (Spanish Tipu Sultan maybe?)

    I think it follows naturally that Spain will favor the Sikhs both for their martial culture and as a counterweight to Muslim dominance in India. I can see a Sikh Empire actually being in a quasi-Ethiopia situation once the other European powers show up with the intention of grabbing land.

    Gurkhas, Lascars, Tirailleurs, etc are a must, of course.

    As of right now, the goals of Sunda and Bali are not to be swallowed by one of the many upstart sultanates that are being established left and right. Their leadership views the Portuguese as a necessary presence, as the Portuguese have no massive armies in the region to make either state afraid of being subsumed by them, and consequently both states tolerate Portuguese interference and a certain degree of Catholic proselytization in exchange for the enormous trade and defense benefits.

    I think the most Spain will do concerning Siam and Myanmar is establish embassies and attempt to monopolize their trade, in which case they will probably use breakdowns in relations between the East Asian powers as a means of becoming a much needed middleman. Also, I'm planning on having the Taungu be as successful as they were IOTL, if not more so.

    As for conquering Cambodia - a Spanish victory could be attained, but coastal Cambodia simply does not offer much in the way of viable harbors, which are absolutely necessary to the colonial model. The difficulties in permeating into Indochina and the hostility of nearby Malaya (Perak exists as it did IOTL btw) and Sumatra will likely restrict Spain to Malaca, at least for a while (although it's too early to really tell).

    I can see the Portuguese virtually forcing the Islamic Malay states into the corner that is the South China Sea, which will probably lead to some Malay colonization of Champs and the Mekong Delta. As for Dai Viet, you'll have to see! ;)

    That's an interesting question. Asian fascination with Europe (a kind of reverse orientalism) could lead to an increased rate of westernization/evangelization, while the presence of Japanese ambassadors and travellers in Europe could also accelerate the other European powers' interest in the Far East. I think ITTL there will probably be an ideological differentiation between "the West," the Islamic World, the Indian Ocean, and the Far East - rather than the simple division between the "West" and the non-West that we have today.

    I have some plans for Russia and Siberia which will not be revealed yet, but let's just say Japan will be larger to the North than it is IOTL.

    True, although the union of languages may lead to an increased spread of an "in-between" dialect such as one of the Astur-Leonese languages. Likewise, the exclusion of Castilians from most of Portugal's colonial projects at the moment means the only Iberian language known in Sub-Saharan Africa, India, and the Far East for quite a while will be Portuguese.

    Also true, "Aragonese" after all is just a mild variation of Castilian Spanish.

    Not quite. While Portugal and Castile are still treated as mostly separate, there is little enforcement and little reason keeping this separation a reality in a region as remote as the Trans-Pacific, especially considering how wildly advantageous such trade would be for everyone involved. Castile gets silk, tea, spices, and other Asian products, Portugal gets much needed bullion, and both kingdoms get good good market circulation and build up good credit in foreign markets.

    As for Diego de Artieda's planned invasion of China, that was actually the inspiration I had for the independent conquest of Maynila ITTL, and is also a little bit of an inspiration for how Spain will treat with the Chinese and Japanese in the near future...
  3. kasumigenx Well-Known Member

    May 26, 2009
    It is Kingdom of Celudão not Kingdom of Tondo since it does not have Tondo, they are the enemies of the Bruneians in Luzon which hold Tondo, the Kin of Lakandula, I think you would have a freedom in writing about that kingdom..they would have an initial motive in allying with the Portuguese which is to annihilate their enemies..
    Last edited: Jun 18, 2017
  4. Fernando III Well-Known Member

    Jan 17, 2017
    Didn't you say that the Portuguese were importing colonist from Aragon and Castile? Either way it seems to me a little far fetched that Portuguese doesn't become a regional language if the political union is not broken.Similar to how Occitan and Gaelic became regional languages.The demographic disparity between Castile and Portugal was similar to the one between England and Portugal.And if all the silver and gold belongs to Castile they will have the biggest demographic bomb like irl.Specially if it is heavily invested in the kingdom.
    Anyways great ATL and I appreciate your effort.Keep up the good work
    TimTurner likes this.
  5. Fernando III Well-Known Member

    Jan 17, 2017
    Also as the comunero revolt never happened.What is the current state of comunidades,behetrias and anti-iglesias in Castile?
  6. kasumigenx Well-Known Member

    May 26, 2009
    Forgot to say, the name of Aparri in this timeline would be Faro, same as Portugal since its old name is Faru, Faro do Celudão would be its name in this timeline..
    mrcubfan415 likes this.
  7. Threadmarks: XXII. "Stormclouds" - Parte I: The Calm

    Torbald þegn

    Jan 27, 2010
    ~ "Stormclouds" ~
    Parte I: The Calm
    "God has caused the sun to shine upon these your kingdoms of Spain, yet I sense there are storm clouds gathering far to the north." These were the words with which Pedro Fernández de Velasco, the 3rd Duke of Frías and Constable of Castile, addressed the 19 year old, newly crowned Juan Pelayo in 1536. Velasco had been received by Juan Pelayo for the sake of presenting the young king with an assessment of his reams and to put his mind at ease. Velasco's words would prove to be more than apt, as the rest of Europe was resembling a powder keg more each day. The conclusion of the Bauernkrieg, wretched as it was, did not change the minds of a good number of European Christians that there were many valid religious and social questions raised by the leaders of the Protestant movement that remained unanswered. It was only a matter of time, then, before Protestantism, both radical and mainline (later designations used to separate them from the Protestantism of Luther and Scheurl) began to realign itself and come back with a vengeance.

    - Nur Gebet und Arbeit -

    Having been living in exile in Norway since 1521, Andreas Karlstadt returned to his native Germany from Agder in 1527. The abject failure of the Bauernkrieg and his time amongst the Hanseatic communities of coastal Norway had worked an important change in Karlstadt’s social teaching. Instead of trying to foment a grassroots reversal of the social order from through the peasantry, Karlstadt, now focusing efforts on the wealthy merchant cities of Northern Germany, urged communal, semi-democratic living amongst the burgher class, encouraging frugality, moral austerity, and minimal cooperation with aristocratic authorities. Karlstadt admitted that he was foolish to rule out the city-dwelling burghers from his Protestant revolution years before (although such was primarily Thomas Müntzer’s doing), as they similarly earned their living through labors of their own and were the most poised to truly upset the political monopoly held by the nobility and the Church. According to Karlstadt, there was only one acceptable hierarchy: that of fathers, the masters of the household, whom Karlstadt called “lords by the natural order.”

    A propaganda woodcut showing a modest, pious Brethren "gebetshäus" on the left, and an extravagant Catholic church on the right filled with parishioners carrying ornate trinkets

    To Karlstadt, a life of celibacy was pure, needless waste, and waste, to the thrifty followers of Karlstadt, was a grave sin. While Vinter and Meyer believed it was necessary for top-down conversion of a society to occur under the auspices of the highest secular powers, Karlstadt believed that such was only necessary within the structure of the nuclear family - which, in turn, would bring about the conversion of society at large. As long as Christian men maintained their moral code and respected one another, their families would be safe to follow suit (Karlstadt acknowledged, however, that such a natural order could only persist amongst Christian families). Working primarily in Bremen, Hamburg, Kiel, and Lauenburg (with his followers spreading his teachings to the northern Low Countries and the coastal cities of France and the British Isles) and occasionally crossing back over to Norway when imperial authorities came looking for him, Karlstadt succeeded in establishing thriving communities of autonomy and thrift-minded burghers who, instead of attending mass, met in modest “gebetshäuser” (prayer houses) without a designated minister, where they took turns reading the Scriptures, spoke freely, and often voted on communal initiatives. These communities also flooded their native cities with pamphlets and fliers, and quickly began to out-compete their Catholic brethren through their coordinated pooling of resources and indefatigable work ethic. The first of these communities, the “Brüder des Wortes” (“Brethren of the Word,” referred to simply as the “Brethren” in the English speaking world), was founded by Karlstadt in Bremen in 1527, and would be joined in the years to come by similar movements such as the Seamen’s Kirk in the ports of Edinburgh, Inverness, Aberdeen, and Perth, the Broeders Kerk in the northern Low Countries, and hamlets of “Naturherren” in rural Lower Saxony and Hesse. [1]

    - Baltiske Fællesskab -

    Meanwhile, after the death of Bogislaw X, his sons Georg and Barnim ruled the duchy of Pomerania in common. In order to consolidate the situation, Georg opted to submit his younger brother Barnim’s candidacy for headmaster of the Teutonic Ordensstaat - its former headmaster, Duke Frederick of Saxony, having died in 1524. Some of the knights were keen on electing another Saxon, while others wished to appoint a German from a region less riven by Protestantism, but the majority were confident in the Catholicism of the two Pomeranian brothers and liked the idea of an ally in such a close position. Barnim was thus elected at the young age of 23. However, this arrangement became much more complicated with two unexpected deaths: those of Georg and his 15 year old son Philip in 1530. Barnim, suddenly required to take up a position of secular power, began negotiating with his knights to rule Pomerania as regent until a suitable successor could be found, while also secretly reaching an agreement with Christian III of Denmark to marry his sister, Dorothea, and to form a military alliance between their two realms in exchange for Barnim’s conversion to Vinteran Protestantism and free reign for Danish trade within Pomerania and Prussia.

    Johannes Bugenhagen, an old friend of Luther and Karlstadt from his days at Wittenberg, had found David Vinter’s approach the most appealing in the confusion following the Bauernkrieg. While Vinteran Protestantism had heretofore been tied specifically to the Danish realm, Vinter himself never became a bishop in the Danske Kirke and did not consider his message to be restricted to any one polity. As such, Vinter and Bugenhagen coordinated the creation of “church orders” (singular “Kirchenordnung”) - that is, Protestant state churches that adhered to their particular state’s laws and customs but remained in communion with one another. Having returned to his homeland of Pomerania in 1528, Bugenhagen thus began to form a Kirchenordnung for the duchy. After duke Georg I’s death in 1530 (who had opposed Protestantism), Bugenhagen was supported by his successor, Barnim XI, and was eventually made the superintendent of the Pomeranian and Prussian churches in 1536.

    Johannes Bugenhagen

    What members remained of the Teutonic Knights were either eager to shed their vows of celibacy and secularize the Order’s holdings, or were crushed in rebellion by Barnim’s large complement of Pomeranian and Danish troops. Sigismund I, the king of Poland, was more than happy to see the perfidious Teutonic Order - so long at odds with his kingdom - receive such a devastating blow, but the reality of the situation set in quickly: now, instead of the troublesome knights occupying Prussia (their authority and military capabilities declining), Prussia had been linked to Pomerania practically overnight to form a state that straddled Polish Pomerelia and that now professed an anti-Catholic creed. The closeness of Pomerania-Prussia to Denmark itself was worrisome enough.

    The Baltic, c. 1536
    (Red: Denmark, Green: Pomerania-Prussia, Pink: Poland, Purple: the Livonian Order)

    The sudden union of Pomerania and Prussia, dissolution of an old and venerable crusading order, and formation of a new power bloc professing Protestantism that was capable of dominating the Baltic all threw Northern Europe into disarray. Both Johann Frederick I, the elector of Saxony, and Joachim Nestor I, elector of Brandenburg, denounced this chain of events and Christian III in particular for not following tradition and maintaining a policy of dynastic marriages between the three states, while Henry V, duke of Mecklenburg and himself related matrilineally to Barnim, chose to align more closely with Denmark and
    "Pommern-Preußen." A coalition was in the works between Poland, Saxony, and Brandenburg (with the encouragement also of Philip I, the Holy Roman Emperor), but it came to nothing following the death of the most powerful member, Sigismund I, in 1532, which left Poland with a 12 year old monarch, Sigismund II.

    - Eine Nation, Eine Kirche -

    Hardline Protestantism would return to the heart of Germany in the form of a certain Johann Albrecht Meyer - a lecturer from Göttingen who was a former student at Wittenberg and reader of Karlstadt and Vinter - who took up an angle very similar to that of Vinter: that the hierarchy of kings and princes over the peasantry and of the presbyters over their flock are both God-ordained, but such a hierarchy has been corrupted by the development of ultramontane Papal Christianity, which forces the priesthood into a cruel, effeminizing life of celibacy, adheres too literally to many passages of Scripture and too symbolically to others, and subverts the natural political order by elevating the clergy to a position of equal temporal authority to that of Europe’s secular leadership. Meyer’s theology paired nicely with an intense emotional buildup developing amongst the German people that craved both peace and national self-determination - fueled by the threat of the Turks to the East and the French to the west, by the political disunity and feuding culture of the Holy Roman Empire, and by the frustration felt towards a Papacy that seemed to care little for their religious problems while remaining content to staff their sees with similarly disinterested foreigners and funnel their tithes back to Rome. From Luther to Karlstadt to Meyer and Bugenhagen, Protestantism became more and more of an issue of German nationalism. For the princes of the Empire, it also became a means of fighting back against a complete Hapsburg ascendancy. Beginning in 1529, Meyer became a court favorite of Ernst I, the duke of Brunswick-Lüneburg and another alumnus of Wittenberg, and of Johann III, the duke of Kleves, before finishing his two seminal works, “On the Sacramental Order of a Christian Nation” (“Auf dem sakramentalen Orden einer christlichen Nation”) and “On the Kingdom of the Germans” (“Auf das Reich der Deutschen”), published respectively in 1530 and 1532, in which he outlines both the fundamentals of his theology and his ideal restructuring of the Holy Roman Empire. In essence, Meyer advocated for an Empire that still elected its head, but through a “College of Princes” - comprised of the highest echelon of the German nobility who retained their hereditary succession as maintenance of their blood-connection to their land - and a “College of Bishops” - comprised of the leaders of the assembly of German bishops.

    Johann Albrecht Meyer von Göttingen

    More theologically speaking, Meyer believed that the Papacy and the traditional Church order were unnecessary due to their supra-national position, that man was justified solely through faith (but exemplified said faith through outward works) and thus did not need the sacrament of reconciliation as a mediation between him and his God, and that the sacraments were symbolic exercises meant to remind the faithful of Christ’s life and sacrifice and bind the community together - meaning Holy Communion was to be a communal meal, and that priestly celibacy and monasticism were invalid on account of their sterility and reclusivity. Meyer, safe from the imperial ban in his sponsor’s courts, was free to be proactive in organizing a union of many disparate Protestant movements in the Empire. Brought together in a “German Evangelical Union,” Meyer and his princely supporters were able to coordinate a relative cohesion in Protestantism, holding synods to smooth out theological disputes with the principle of such debates being: “In the core of the gospel - unity; in the periphery - freedom.”(“Im Kern des Evangeliums - Einheit; in der Peripherie - Freiheit.”) [2]

    Meyer's “On the Kingdom of the Germans”

    The death of Martin Luther in 1538 brought further polarization between traditional Catholicism and the Protestant movements. Luther had been hesitant to break with the Church or denounce the Papacy due to his hope that a great council might be called and his teachings heeded. However, his disappointment with the Fifth Lateran Council left him indecisive, and by the time of his death he had neither moved to break with Rome nor to concede to it. Following his death, the followers of Luther gradually separated into three camps: 1) that of the German Evangelical Union, the association with which was led by Johannes Agricola and which chose the path of mainline Protestantism and was itself a combination “princes’ churches” (“fürstenkirchen,” the church orders established in the realms of individual princes and administered by them) and of the independent Reformed Evangelical Church; 2) the Reformed Lutheran Congregation, first led by Christoph Scheurl, Justus Jonas, and Philip Schwartzerdt, which was a group that maintained its distance from radical and mainline Protestantism and asserted that it was a reform movement still within the old Church; and 3) those that reassociated with mainline Catholicism, primarily led by Johann von Eck and Johann Crotus.

    Meyer’s revival and redefinition of mainline Protestantism would be taken up by a great number of colleagues: Johannes Brenz brought mainline Protestantism to Württemberg in Southern Germany; Stephan Agricola was active in both Hesse and Thuringia; Martin Bucer and Kaspar Heyd preached in Alsace and the Palatinate; and the far-ranging Andreas Osiander carried Meyeran theology to Franconia, Saxony, Prussia, and Scandinavia. Likewise, those in the vein of Karlstadt, such as the Frenchmen Guillaume Farel and Antoine Froment or the Englishmen Robert Barnes and Thomas Bilney, found success in their homelands, leading to the early development of radical Protestant communities in Lorraine and East Anglia.

    - "Dios es Español" -

    Amidst the rapid re-organization of the protestant movement, the Church was struggling to initiate much needed reforms. The Fifth Lateran Council had been to set to proceed as early as 1510, but intrigue in Central Italy (such as the exile of the Medici) and the Third Italian War of 1508-1516, and the death of Pope Julius II in 1515 had complicated matters. Fearing the French army near Florence, the Papal conclave was similarly put off until mid-1516, and ultimately resulted in the election of Cardinal Raffaele Riario (probably influenced by Florence’s new podestà Cesare Borgia, due to Riario’s distaste for the Medici) as Pope Sixtus V. Riario, a patron of the arts (having invited Michelangelo and Leonardo da Vinci to Rome during his Cardinalate), was more or less indifferent to Church affairs, and - despite the very troubling emergence of Protestantism and the calamitous Bauernkrieg in the Holy Roman Empire - could not be convinced to convene an ecumenical council until 1522 (and then only partly due to a Hapsburg army headed by the young heir Charles pressuring the Vatican into speeding things up). Beginning in late 1522 and closing in early 1525, the Fifth Lateran Council concluded, amongst many other things, that:
    • General councils could only be convoked with the approval of the Holy Father.
    • General councils must remain subordinate in their authority to the Holy Father.
    • Before being ordained, priests must be certified by their bishop as competent preachers, upright in personal morals, and sufficiently well-versed in theological matters.
    • Holy war against the Turks was to be pursued with urgency.
    • Vernacular translations of the Scriptures were permitted, but only under the close supervision of a Papal representative deemed impeccably orthodox in his exegesis and fluent in the relevant languages. These translations were then to be reviewed by the local bishop as well, and were to be kept solely in his possession.
    • Most importantly, all grants of indulgences involving any fees or material recompense were to be formally suspended.
    Some years before the death of Sixtus V in 1524, Miguel and Philip I had secretly agreed to push for Philip’s preferred papabile, the Dutchman Adrian of Utrecht, and then push for Miguel’s candidate after. However, the combined influence of both the Holy Roman Emperor and the King of Spain was not sufficient to break the pro-Italian coalition painstakingly built up in the Sacred College by Julius II, and Adrian was passed over in favor of Alessandro Farnese, the bishop of Parma, who would take the name Paul III (the Medici candidate, Giulio, archbishop of Benevento, was similarly passed over due to the Medici family’s increasingly close ties to the viceroy of Naples, the infante Fernando).

    Pope Paul III

    After the death of Miguel and the failure of Philip I to get his pope, the agreement between the Hapsburgs and the Avís-Trastámaras was implicitly still set to proceed, but the papacy of Paul III only strengthened the pro-Italian elements of the Papacy, especially in the face of what was seen as incessant meddling in Italian politics by French, German, and Spanish alike. The defeat of the French in the Third Italian War and the lack of any significant, aggressive Spanish activity in Italy since the First Italian War meant that the attitude of the Curia became more anti-Imperial than anti French or anti-Spanish. While neither Miguel nor his chosen papabile, Alonso III Fonseca, the archbishop of Santiago de Compostela (which would be a significant propaganda victory for a united Spain) would outlive Paul III, with Spain bearing the full brunt of the Turkish advance, a Spanish candidate for the papacy became much more likely. While Charles V pushed vigorously for the nomination of William de Croÿ (nephew of the more well known, same named former tutor of Charles), the bishop of of newly formed diocese of Mechelen, the year 1536 saw a certain Ignatius of Loyola granted the see of St. Peter (Charles IX of France’s preferred candidates would also be ignored on account of his inaction towards the growing number of Protestants in his realm).

    Born Ignazio Loiolakoa in 1491, Ignatius (who kept his name as Pope) was a Basque who, in his youth, aspired towards an accomplished career on the field of battle. Like so many others with similar goals in the Iberian peninsula, Ignatius volunteered as a lay brother in the Órdenes Militantes to serve in North Africa. However, when sailing for Tlemcen in 1521, the galley bearing Ignatius was shipwrecked, and the young soldier soon found himself the prisoner and slave of Muslim corsairs,[3] who put him to work as an oarsmen. Changing hands multiple times over the years (even ending up on the flagship of Oruç Reis at one point), Ignatius was finally freed in a Spanish raid in 1524. Having never had so much as drawn his sword, Ignatius returned home - his body gaunt, his dreams shattered, and his spirit broken. After weeks recuperating, Ignatius experienced a profound spiritual crisis, causing him to renounce a life of bloodshed and personal gain, and instead enter the priesthood and join the Mercedarians. As a Mercedarian, Ignatius greatly impressed all he met through his untiring diligence in the business of ransoming and rescuing Christian prisoners and slaves, and inspired them likewise through his intense focus in meditation. By 1532, Ignatius had been made the archbishop of Valencia, and had even served a stint as auxiliary bishop of Zaragoza.

    Pope Ignatius I

    Ignatius embodied the fruit of the many ecclesiastical reforms carried out by Miguel and the Catholic Monarchs. Ignatius emphasized a rigorous denial of self and constantly stressed the need for both a more exhaustive priestly education and a consistent, nigh-omnipresent engagement with the common people. These attitudes brought Ignatius closely in line with Pope Paul III, who more or less deemed Ignatius his preferred successor. The death of Paul III in 1536 was certainly too early to make the accession of Ignatius a certainty, but Ignatius soon found himself the object of Spanish ambition. Even with its nebulous interactions with the Papal States in recent times, Spain possessed a considerable amount of leverage in the Holy See. Besides expressing no interest in further expansion or military activity in Italy (beyond ensuring the stability of Genoa), the Spanish had just repulsed an Ottoman invasion of Italy and concluded the first phase of multi-generational crusade in North Africa, not to mention Miguel had poured a considerable amount of American gold and silver into the construction and decoration of innumerable churches and cathedrals in his realms, and there was plenty left over for Juan Pelayo to fill the pockets of any dissenting cardinals.

    The election of Ignatius scandalized a good number of cardinals - Ignatius had, after, only been an ordained priest for 13 years - and there would be many reactionary elements in the Curia and the Sacred College that would heavily oppose Ignatius throughout his papacy, but, ultimately, the vast majority of Ignatius’ reforms would succeed. Almost immediately, Ignatius sounded the call for another ecumenical council -- this time to more conclusively address the issue of Protestantism - and, with the Holy Roman Empire headed by the iron-willed and ultra-orthodox Charles V since his father’s death in 1531, there was no room for further delay. The Second Council of Basel commenced in 1538, and - given the outbreak of hostilities between most of Western Europe’s major powers in the early 1540s - would not conclude without interruption until late 1546. The council's major points - apart from reaffirming the pronouncements of the Fifth Lateran Council, were as follows:
    • The doctrines of the Real Presence and Transubstantiation (as well as of the other sacraments) were reinforced - Jesus Christ was both physically and spiritually manifest in the forms of the bread and wine that constitute the Eucharist.
    • The veneration of the Virgin Mary, saints, and relics were all strongly affirmed - but their subordination to the Holy Trinity was also, of course, stressed.
    • The baptism of infants was declared valid and, in most cases, absolutely necessary.
    • Iconography and other religious displays of art were both permissible and encouraged, and iconoclasm was deemed a misguided, if not diabolical perversion of religious fervor and pious austerity.
    • Justification comes through faith, but, as written by St. James, “faith without works is dead.”
    • Scripture alone was not sufficient for self-referential interpretation - Scripture and tradition had to be used in tandem.
    • The Holy See was established by Christ and placed in the care of St. Peter and his successors, and thereby enjoyed a position of leadership in the universal Church as the Vicariate of Christ.
    • A great number of clerical abuses were addressed: guidelines were finely laid out detailing, in part, the morality of priests and religious, limitations on both benefices and censures, a minimal level of education required for priestly ordination and for elevation to an episcopate, and a prohibition on dueling and the pursuit of personal grievances.
    • The works of Johann Albrecht Meyer, David Vinter, Andreas Karlstadt, and many like-minded were formally denounced, and anyone who professed their teachings was excommunicated via latae sententiae.
    • The right of appeal of priests and bishops to the Vatican was restricted to strictly ecclesial matters - secular charges were to be processed by secular courts.
    • Translation of Scripture or personal ownership of a bible were not intrinsically ill-intentioned, and therefore the dissemination of vernacular bibles was to be allowed so long as its translation had received an imprimatur from a local bishop in good standing (Ignatius granted Juan Pelayo a special dispensation before the conclusion of the council to freely permit the printing of vernacular bibles in the kingdoms of Spain, with the only condition being that every copy printed bear the imprimatur of both the local bishop and of the Holy Office of the Inquisition).
    • Significantly, Church councils could be called and assembled without Papal approval, but could not be considered binding in any way without the Pope's attendance and approval. [4]

    The Second Council of Basel in session

    Besides completing a major Church council, Ignatius' papacy also saw the formation of numerous, effective religious orders. Apart from the Gregorians of Bernardino de Sahagún (approved in 1548), Ignatius also gave his blessing to an order that had begun to function in Northern Italy during the papacy of Paul III. Official named the Congregation of the Apostolic Life, the Oratorians (colloquially named after their personal chapels) were given papal approval by Ignatius in 1541 and soon did their part to fill a noticeable gap in 16th century Catholicism - especially in nascent Catholic communities. The mendicant orders of Franciscans and Dominicans could preach well enough, baptizing on occasion some thousands in a single day, and the Gregorians were instrumental in making the Gospel and the traditions of the Church accessible to a multitude of almost diametrically opposed cultures, but there was something missing. The conversions, when they did come, were almost always imperfect; old habits die hard, and religious habits are the most resilient. The lack of everyday engagement from Catholicism apart from baptism, mass, and the occasional anointing of the sick or marriage had engendered in many Catholic communities - whether newly converted or centuries old - a confusion as to just what Catholicism was all about.

    If the Church truly intended to be the most important facet of its flock’s everyday lives, it would have to meet them there. What was needed was greater involvement, and the Oratorians brought just that: unlike other orders, the Oratorians’ whole mission was to fully immerse themselves in the public, quotidian world. Organized into houses with multiple resident priests and brothers, the Oratorians arranged their rooms around a common oratory and preferred to establish themselves in urban centers or other areas of higher population density. When not performing mass (usually at numerous different churches), the Oratorians would go out and mingle with the common people, conversing with them on all matters, public or private, often hearing confessions on street corners (fountains were often favored, due to the noise). Adult men were also invited to attend lectures and sermons, pray the hours, or seek advice at the oratory, and were given the option of joining the Oratorians’ lay organization, the Confraternity of the Apostolic Life. Known as “Apostólicos” in the Hispanosphere, the Oratorians worked wonders for the newly-Christianized in Spain’s many colonies; providing them with constant, easily understandable spiritual care, and virtually leaving no room for their old pre-Christian religious habits to be maintained or remain relevant. Amidst a Church hierarchy that had come to be seen by many everyday Catholic as cold and distant in its parochial life and extravagant - if not lascivious - in its personal morality, the Oratorians brought with them a simple, down to earth sense of spiritual brotherhood and devotional joy.

    An Oratorian assisting a beggar


    [1] Andreas Karlstadt has thus ascended past the brief moment of significance he had in OTL, with some interesting consequences. Through him, some of the ideals of the Peasants' War have survived, although they've been adapted and formulated to be more palatable to a wider audience. Karlstadter Protestantism (practiced by the "Brethren" churches) doesn't really have a direct OTL counterpart. It's an amalgam of different strains of Reformation: in essence, it's communal Lutheranism with an extra emphasis on the "priesthood of all believers," combined with a quasi-Zwinglian, "symbolicized" understanding of the Eucharist, a Presbyterian-esque system of regional "synods" that form a sort of ecumenical body uniting the Brethren churches, and an Anabaptist approach to baptism (although this would only become the dominant practice later on). The Brethren are thus sort of like Calvinists concerning which communities they appeal to and concerning their dominance of Radical Protestantism.

    [2] Meyer is a fictional, a lecturer from Göttingen turned Protestant reformer who has filled the vacuum in leadership left by Martin Luther. Luther did not disappear from the scene, but he was never denounced as harshly or as quickly by the Papacy or the Emperor as in OTL, so he never formally broke with Rome. Consequently, the Protestant movement had a lot of revolutionary thrust initially that Luther wasn't able to keep up with (his rejection of the Bauernkrieg being one example of this), and now moderate "Mainline" Protestantism has mostly moved past him with Meyer - who has a much more definitive, anti-papal formula of reform - taking his place. Meyeran Protestantism is therefore mostly identical to OTL's Lutheranism, with a few minor exceptions. Meyer himself is supposed to be a brilliant theologian and a tireless, headstrong organizer, but is unable to overcome his German supremacist leanings and bullheaded nature and, as a result, alienates other Protestant groups even faster than Luther did IOTL.

    [3] Pope Ignatius was a slave, and will not be the last pontiff ITTL to share a similar past. You can probably imagine how this is going to shape the Papacy's attitude towards slavery in the near future.

    [4] This is going to be important when it comes to reforming churches at a local level. Bishops are essentially conceded the right to enforce certain regulations without having to always make an appeal to Rome, or worry about their subordinates appealing to Rome in protest.
    Last edited: Mar 1, 2018
  8. The Merovingian To whom the Capets aspire.

    Mar 11, 2017
    Austrasia today, Burgundy tomorrow.
    As usual Torbald, you make the update well worth the wait :)
  9. Xenophonte Quod natura non dat, Salmantica non præstat.

    Feb 13, 2014
    South America
    Well, while had been stated in an earlier update that the Jesuits had been butterflied in this TL but still, this was really unexpected... Ignacio's uplift to the Holy See!! ... But it's a very welcomed surprise beside that I guess both for the update and for my guessing that the Ignacian Papacy will be Key besides from probably being remembered and compared with the Gregorian Papacy.

    Also, I think that his strong will and skill (than OTL, but guess that at major degree and with more consequences and/or effects on TTL) will be shown and applied (besides the commented and very needy reforms), to a more 'fighting' Church or at least a very strong Papacy.

    P.S: Another interesting 'thing' it's the formation of the player, that I assume that will become in the main menace/rival for Poland and the Denmark's ally and with the potential for will become in a major player in Germany and the Baltic... of course, there is another possible player that would be 'waiting for play his role' in the Germany's 'mess'.
    Last edited: Jun 18, 2017
  10. Earl Marshal Well-Known Member

    Mar 23, 2017
    Cavalier Country
    Pomerania-Prussia is going to be quite the power in the Baltic, essentially being an earlier and wealthier Brandenburg-Prussia. Also looks like Protestantism is readying itself for another fight with the Holy Roman Emperor.

    Those reforms in the Catholic Church by Ignatius are certainly very helpful, especially the Oratorians, but one has to wonder if they are all too late to kill Protestantism in its cradle.

    Great update as always Torbald.
    mrcubfan415 and Torbald like this.
  11. SavoyTruffle Illennial

    Sep 14, 2010
    Pope Ignatius. Me likey.

    Seems like a more robust Counter-Reformation TTL, and the Oratorians are gonna be a very nice replacement for the Jesuits.

    Wonder if TTL will have a Matteo Ricci counterpart who reaches the Middle Kingdom...

    I don't see it, but I'm thinking TTL Protestantism is less of a force outside Northeastern Europe. Also the Thirty Years' War won't happen or its equivalent will be less destructive.
  12. Threadmarks: Reference: Protestant Sects

    Torbald þegn

    Jan 27, 2010

    Roman Catholicism
    Communion: Real Presence, Transubstantiation
    Reconciliation: Yes
    Baptism: Infant
    Episcopate: Yes
    Presbyterate: Ordained Priesthood
    Priestly Celibacy: Yes
    Justification: Faith & Works
    Iconography: Yes
    Monasticism: Yes
    Hierarchy: Papacy, College of Cardinals, Ecumenical Councils, Episcopate​

    High Church Protestantism

    High Lutheran (Hochlutherisch)
    Other Names: Saxon/Old Saxon Rite, Thuringian/Old Thuringian Rite, Old Lutheran (Altlutherisch)
    Communion: Real Presence & Transubstantiation
    Reconciliation: Yes
    Baptism: Infant
    Episcopate: Yes
    Presbyterate: Ordained Priesthood
    Priestly Celibacy: No
    Justification: Faith
    Iconography: Yes
    Monasticism: No
    Hierarchy: Episcopate
    Adherent Congregations:
    - Reformed Lutheran Congregation (Die Reformierte Lutherische Kongregation)​

    Vinteran (Vintersk)
    Other Names: Winteran, Nordic, Scots
    Communion: Real Presence
    Reconciliation: No
    Baptism: Infant
    Episcopate: Yes
    Presbyterate: Ordained Priesthood
    Priestly Celibacy: No
    Justification: Faith
    Iconography: Yes
    Monasticism: No
    Hierarchy: Monarchy, Episcopate
    Adherent Congregations:
    - Church of Denmark (Den Danske Kirke/Den Kongelige Kirke)
    - Church of Sweden (Sveriges Kungliga Kyrka)
    - Princely Church of Pomerania and Prussia (Fürstliche Kirche von Pommern und Preußen)
    - High Church of Scotland (Àrd Eaglais na h-Alba)​

    Mainline Protestantism

    Meyeran (Meyerisch)
    Other names: Evangelical (Evangelisch), Hessian, Franconian, Rhenish, Mayeran, Meieran, Maieran
    Communion: Symbolic
    Reconciliation: No
    Baptism: Infant
    Episcopate: Yes
    Presbyterate: Ordained Ministers
    Priestly Celibacy: No
    Justification: Faith
    Iconography: Minimal
    Monasticism: No
    Hierarchy: Episcopate
    Adherent Congregations:
    - German Evangelical Union (Die Deutsche Evangelische Union)​

    Neo-Lutheran (Neulutherisch)
    Other Names: Evangelical (Evangelisch), Gnesio-Lutherans, Neophyte (Neophyt), Low Lutheran (Niederlutherisch), Demonstrant, Antinomian (Antinomisch)
    Communion: Real Presence
    Reconciliation: No
    Baptism: Adult/Infant
    Episcopate: No
    Presbyterate: Ordained Ministers
    Priestly Celibacy: No
    Justification: Faith
    Iconography: Minimal
    Monasticism: No
    Hierarchy: Regional Synods
    Adherent Congregations:
    - Reformed Church of Saxony (Die Sächsisch-Reformierte Kirche)
    - Reformed Church of Brandenburg (Die Reformierte Kirche von Brandenburg)
    - Brabantian Communion/Communion of Breda (De Brabantse Communie)
    - Masovian Communion (Komunia Mazowsza)
    - Communion of Lublin (Komunia Lubelska)
    - Communion of Grodno (Gardino Bendrystė)
    - Communion of Kaunas (Kauno Bendrystė)
    - Communion of Debrecen (Debrecen Közössége)​
    Radical Protestantism

    Other Names: Brethren (Brüder), Dissenter
    Communion: Symbolic, only required once
    Reconciliation: No
    Baptism: Adult
    Episcopate: No
    Presbyterate: Ordained Ministers
    Justification: Faith
    Iconography: Minimal
    Monasticism: No
    Hierarchy: Regional Synods
    Adherent Congregations:
    - Brethren of the Word (Brüder des Wortes)
    - Riga Brethren (Brüder von Riga)
    - Church of Oldenburg (Kirche von Oldenbug)
    - Brethren of the Word (Brødrene i Ordet)
    - Frisian Brethren (De Broederskerk)
    - Seamen's Kirk (Eaglais nam Maraichean)
    - Brethren of the Word​

    Other Names: Confederate (Confédéré), Dissident, Recusant (Récusant/Réfractaire), Reformed (Réformé)
    Communion: Symbolic
    Reconciliation: No
    Baptism: Infant
    Episcopate: No
    Presbyterate: Ordained Ministers
    Justification: Faith
    Iconography: Minimal
    Monasticism: No
    Hierarchy: Regional Synods
    Adherent Congregations:
    - Reformed Church (Église Réformée)
    - Brethren of the Gospel (Confrérie de l'Évangile)
    - Servetan Brethren (Confrérie Servétienne)
    - Church of the Reformed Cantons (Église des Cantons Réformés)
    Last edited: Oct 3, 2018
  13. Threadmarks: Reference: Different Placenames

    Torbald þegn

    Jan 27, 2010
    Aaaaand here's that much needed reference for all the differently named location in this TL, which I'll threadmark and will be updating as time goes on:


    El Surgidero de la Habana = Havana
    (Isla Juana de) Cuba = Cuba
    Las Indias Mayores/Las Antillas = The Greater Antilles
    Las Lucayas = The Bahamas
    Los Caribes = The Lesser Antilles
    (San Juan de) Boriquén = Puerto Rico
    San Severino de Hicacos = near Matanzas
    (Santiago de) Jamaica = Jamaica
    (Santo Domingo de) La Española = Hispaniola

    South America

    Bahía del Espíritu Santo = Río de La Plata
    Espíritu Santo = Buenos Aires
    Huelva de Riohica = Ica
    Las Indias Menores/Nueva Andalucía = Panamá, Venezuela, Colombia, Costa Rica, Nicaragua, Honduras
    Nueva Vizcaya = Perú, Bolivia, Chile, Ecuador
    Puerto Noble de Guayaquil = Guayaquil
    San Jerónimo de Cumaná = Cumaná
    San Lorenzo de Caráquez = San Antonio de Caráquez
    San Martín de Limac = Lima
    San Pedro de Maracaibo = Maracaibo
    Santa Ana de Guatavita = Guatavita
    Santiago de Bogotá = Santa Fe de Bogotá
    Santiago del Ríochambo = San Pedro de Riobamba
    Trujillo de Coro = Coro

    Brazil (Brasil)

    Belle-île = Ilhabela
    Île du Saint-Esprit = Ilha de São Francisco del Sur
    Île-Résolue de Saint Jean = Ilha de São Vicente
    Isla de Santa Isabel = Santa Catarina
    Puerto del Infante = Porto Alegre
    São Fernão da Bahía = São Salvador
    São Miguel Arcanjo da Guanabara = Rio de Janeiro


    Bezeguiche de Cabo Verde = Dakar & Bay of Dakar
    Baía de Madeira = Hout Bay
    Baía de Saldanha = Saldanha Bay
    Baía de Taboa = Table Bay
    Cabo da Boa Esperança = Cape of Good Hope
    Cabo Verde = Cap-Vert
    Ilhas do Cabo Verde = Cape Verde
    Ilha de Palma de Bezeguiche = Gorée
    São João do Cabo da Boa Esperança = Cape Town
    São Jorge da Mina = Elmina
    Sulafrica = South Africa

    Central America & México

    Badajoz de Ichecanzejo = near Mérida
    Guaimura = Honduras
    Nueva Castilla = México, Guatemala, El Salvador, Belize
    Puerta Natividad = near Puerto Caballos
    San Carlos de Campeche = Campeche
    San Germán de Guatemala = Santiago de los Caballeros
    San Isidoro de Oaxaca = Oaxaca de Juárez
    Santa Rosa = near Trujillo


    Aparri = Faro
    Davão = Davao
    Fustes = Legazpi
    Luçon = Luzon
    Macáçar = Makassar
    Majas = Panay
    Malaca = Malacca
    Mindanão = Mindanao
    Minajouro = Mindoro
    Palauan = Palawan
    São Lourenço de Celudão = Manila
    Sunda Kelapa = Batavia/Jakarta
  14. kasumigenx Well-Known Member

    May 26, 2009
    Mindoro is originally called as Minolo, in this timeline a variant of it might well be used..the Alternative name for Luzon ITTL is Celudão but that will apply more for Northern Luzon, the term Selurong or Saludong is used by Malays..the term Luçon is used because the Portuguese will first encounter the Luções which are under Bruneian suzerainty..
    Gabingston likes this.
  15. Torbald þegn

    Jan 27, 2010
    Aw shucks :)

    The Gregorians were more or less intended to be TTL's counterpart to OTL's Jesuits' more intellectual/culturally sensitive aspects, while the Oratorians are both a combination of the TOP Oratorians and the OTL Jesuits' omnipresence in the Catholic World during and after the Counter-Reformation.

    Although you're right, the Church has been given much more capable teeth much earlier than IOTL, with the Fifth Lateran Council occurring later and therefore able to address more pertinent matters than IOTL, and with the 2nd Council of Basel (TTL's counterpart to the Council of Trent, rather obviously) occurring earlier, and therefore able to more quickly address said pertinent issues.

    As for Pomerania-Prussia, let's just say they'll be pursuing a more northern strategy...

    Pomerania and Prussia might not be the only states united following this chain of events, let's just say that ;) And yes, the Protestants are putting their dukes up once again, in tandem with a few others... Protestantism certainly won't disappear, but it won't be quite as much of a global player as it was IOTL.

    And thank you :)

    You're quite right, the Church is going for the throat much earlier ITTL, and possesses the capabilites to do so. Also, China will be opened soon, very soon!

    The Thirty Years' War, as it happened IOTL, won't occur this time around, but something (or some things) similar is going to happen, of that you can be sure...

    Ah. See, I thought the name Mindoro came from a contraction of the Spanish "Mina de Oro." Very interesting...
  16. Anarch King of Dipsodes Overlord of All Thirst

    Jan 17, 2015
    The heights of glory, the depths of despair.
    The Teutonic Order in Prussia secularized, but the Order as a whole survived, and exists today. The Order's members within the HRE reorganized under the patronage of Charles V. There were many Commanderies of the Order which were minor ecclesiastic states; they were mediatized in 1803-1806, and the Order was dissolved except in Austria.

    Incidentally, from the Peace of Augsburg till the end of the HRE, the Order was open to Protestants.
  17. AvatarOfKhaine Eldar God of War

    May 22, 2017
    Craftworld Herefordshire
  18. Silver Member

    Jun 30, 2006
    Liked reading the your latest chapter of your wonderful ATL, Torbald - especially a Papacy under the OTL St. Ignatius de Loyola (the patron saint of the church I go to, I might add), which in turn creates a much earlier and much stronger Counter-Reformation Movement than in the OTL.

    Once again, I have a few questions in regards to your ATL, which I hope you could answer for me, and they are:

    - With St. Ignatius de Loyola at the helm of the Papacy does this mean that the Inquisition would constantly be under strict observation (especially by Pope Ignatius himself) for any excesses and abuses caused by it, particularly by the Spanish Inquisition and the Portuguese Inquisition as well as even the Mexican Inquisition, the Peruvian Inquisition, the Goa Inquisition, the Netherlands Inquisition, and even closer to home - the Roman Inquisition? I'm guessing that Pope Ignatius considers the abuses, excesses, other negative actions of the various Inquisitions (that he would likely personally witness and/or even herad of) to be counter-productive and even harmful to his Papacy's and the ATL Counter-Reformation Movement's efforts in conducting church reform as well as in its ongoing proselytzation efforts throughout the world? Will you write a chapter (or chapters) of the ATL version of the Inquisition for your ATL some time in the future?

    - With a different Roman Catholic Christian Church that experienced the papacy of your ATL St. Ignatius de Loyola and much earlier and stronger Counter-Reformation Movement - does this mean that your ATL Matteo Ricci will be more successful somewhat in getting the Roman Catholic Christian Church to give a special dispensation to the Chinese Roman Catholic Christian converts in regards to honoring their family ancestors (aka the OTL Chinese Rites Controversy) as well as doing so for the Japanese, Korean, and Vietnamese Roman Catholic Christian converts who also follow similar practices? Moreover, will the Gregorian China Missions be more successful, be more pervasive, and be more longer-lasting than the OTL Jesuit China Missions, especially if the Chinese Rites Controversy goes in favor of the Chinese (as well as Japanese, Korean, and Vietnamese) Roman Catholic Christian converts?

    - I'm guessing the Thirty Year's War still happens in your ATL. but much more differently than OTL? If so, how will the lives the more well-known as well lesser-known military commanders of the Imperial/Catholic side be like in your ATL such as: Count Albrecht von Wallenstein of Bohemia, Gottfried Heinrich Graf zu Pappenheim, Count Johann Tserclaes of Tilly, Count Raimondo of Montecuccoli, Don Ambrogio Spinola, Count-Duke Gaspar de Guzman of Olivares (a contemporary of Cardinal Richeliu) Ottavio Piccolomini, Count Peter Melander of Holzappel (the only Protestant military commander to serve on the Imperial side), the Cardinal-Infante Ferdinand of Austria, the 3rd Duke of Feria, Franz von Mercy, Count Johann von Werth, Gonzalo Fernandez de Cordoba, Gottfried Huyn von Geleen, Count Charles Bonaventure de Longueval of Bucquoy, Don Carlos Coloma, Dom Francisco de Melo, Matthias Gallas, and Archduke Leopold Wilhelm of Austria?

    - Will Cardinal Richeliu still steers France to greatness jut like in the OTL? Or will, he be opposed by the machinations of the Count-Duke of Olivares, who is the main minister of a more unified, more powerful, and a richer and more prosperous Iberian Empire, which is in the process of being more unified with its various overseas colonies throughout the world? If so, will the two men develop an epic and life-long rivalry with each other that is the stuff of legends? :cool::cool::cool:

    - Will the Hapsburg's personal domain of Austria over time eventually encompasses not only OTL Austria, but also all of the OTL Italian region of Trentino-Alto Adige, all of OTL Switzerland (especially once the Hapsburgs wiped out the remnants of the Swiss Confederation and made all of Switzerland Protestant-free?), all of OTL Liechtenstein (perhaps through a personal union - initially?), and all of OTL Slovenia (due to its OTL historical links with Austria) as well as all of the OTL Kingdom of Dalmatia? And that these aforementioned areas are under direct Hapsburg rule and control and are Protestant-free? Will Hapsburg-controlled Austria eventually and over time annex and control the equally and wholly Catholic Electorate of Bavaria through a personal union (a la Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth)? Will this Austria-Bavaria??? later include the OTL Margraviate of Baden (predominantly Catholic) and perhaps even the OTL Landgraviate of Hesse-Darmstadt as well as Nassau-Saabrucken aka the OTL Saarland, which is one of two German states where Catholics form the majority, the other is Bavaria)?

    - Will Austria-Bavaria be united with the OTL Kingdom of Hungary to form a much bigger Austro-Hungarian Empire that survives and thrives to the present day, and which is completely or wholly Roman Catholic? Moreover, will this Austro(Bavarian)- Hungarian Empire later encompasses the lands of the OTL Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth either through conquest and annexation, or, through personal union - thus making this particular European empire a powerful hegemon in Central and Eastern Europe even to the present day? Moreover, will this particular European Catholic empire have overseas colonies in what is OTL North Borneo aka Sabah and the OTL Congo Free State, thus making this particular European empire late in the colonial game?

    - Will the Swiss Guards not only remain in the employ of the French monarchs and of the Vatican like in the OTL (despite their homeland of Switzerland becoming an integral and permanent part of Austria and later Austria-Bavaria), but also be in the permanent employ and service of the monarchs of your ATL Iberian Empire (and also see service in its various overseas colonies; perhaps even working and fighting alongside their Sikh warrior and Japanese Roman Catholic Christian samurai counterparts in the Iberian Empires various colonial wars???:cool::cool::cool:; perhaps even forming overseas Swiss mercenary/military communities alongside their Sikh and Japanese Catholic samurai co-workers/compatriots throughout the Iberian Empire???:cool::cool::cool:) as well as in the permanent employ of the Hapsburg emperors of Austria and later Austria-Bavaria as well as in the employ of monarchs of the ATL Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth, which survives to the present day? Will the Hapsburg monarchs eventually enact a law that allows the Swiss to only serve in countries/kingdoms that are predominantly Roman Catholic Christian, and are ruled by Roman Catholic Christian rulers?

    - Will gold and diamonds be discovered in Portuguese-controlled South Africa, Angola, and Mozambique much later or much earlier than in the OTL, thus giving the Iberian Empire a second wind/second chance, especially once the gold, silver, and precious gems in the Castilian/Aragonese parts of the Iberian Empire run dry and after suffering from a long financial crisis due to the overabundance of gold and silver from the Americas?

    - Will the Japanese ninja/shinobi and their female kunoichi counterparts eventually find their way in the service/employ of the Iberian Empire as spies, saboteurs, and assassins as well as serving as proto-special forces operators in the armies of the Iberian Empire :cool::cool::cool:?

    - Will the Iberian Empire become fully entrenched in the entire Caribbean region (i.e. the Caribbean becomes an Iberian Empire lake), thus making the Iberian empire's hold in that aforementioned region - permanent as well difficult to nigh impossible to dislodge by the other European powers entering the Americas?

    - With the Portuguese (under the Iberian Empire) frequenting the Indian Ocean - does this mean that the Iberian Empire will sooner or later colonize most the islands found in this particular region for various reasons (especially strategic ones) such as: Madagascar (especially during the time of the Merina Kingdom; perhaps this kingdom becomes a client-state of the Iberian Empire and Roman Catholicism spreads into the island?' I'm also guessing that all of the different species of Lemur are considered protected species by the Iberian imperial authorities?); the Mascarene Islands including Mauritius Island, Rodrigues, Agalega, Reunion, Saint Brandon, the Seychelles, and the entire Chagos Archipelago including the Diego Garcia atoll (perhaps the Dodo of Mauritius does not become extinct in your ATL, but survives to the present day as exotic pets commonly found throughout Iberian Empire-controlled parts of the Indian Subcontinent, southern Africa, and the East Indies?); the islands that would be part of the OTL French Southern and Antarctic Lands including the islands of Bassas da India and Juan de Nova; the OTL Cocos (Keeling) Islands, the OTL Christmas Island; the OTL Ashmore and Cartier Islands; the OTL Andaman Islands (perhaps Roman Catholicism spread throughout the island?); the OTL Coco Islands (perhaps it becomes the main source of coconuts in the Iberian Empire?); the OTL Laccadive Islands; the OTL Moscos Islands; the OTL Nicobar Islands?

    - Will the Portuguese invasion of the Jaffna Kingdom of 1650 be more successful in your ATL, especially with a Portugal that is part of a more unified, richer, and powerful Iberian Empire - and that the Jaffna Kingdom becomes a client state of the Iberian Empire and later as a colony of the Iberian Empire; that Roman Catholicism rapidly spreads into the area; and that the ATL Portuguese Ceylon would encompass all of the island of Sri Lanka unlike in the OTL?

    - With parts of the Indonesian Archipelago under Portuguese control will this eventually lead to the Iberian Empire discovering Australia by accident? If so, which parts of Australia would be first settled/colonized by the Iberian Empire? Will it be coastal areas as well as the island of Tasmania? [I'm guessing the Thylacine aka the Tasmanian Wolf aka the Tasmanian Tiger and the Tasmanian Emu won't end up extinct like in the OTL but survive to the present day? I'm also wondering what the Iberian colonists will think of the Tasmanian Devil? :):):)] will the Iberian Empire begin discovering and settling/colonizing the many islands of the Oceania region (via the Portuguese from the East Indies and the Aragonese and Castilians from the Americas) such as: the OTL Coral Sea Islands; Norfolk Island; Papua; West Papua; Vanuatu; the OTL Federated States of Micronesia; Guam; Kiribati; the OTL Marshall Islands; Nauru; the OTL Northern Mariana Islands; Palau; Wake Island; OTL American Samoa; the Cook Islands; Easter Island; OTL French Polynesia; the Hawaiian Islands; Niue; the Pitcairn Islands; Samoa; Tokelau; Tonga; Tuvalu; and the islands of Wallis and Futuna? [I'm guessing that the islands of Papua New Guinea, and the Solomon Islands will need more brutal measures to be undertaken by the Iberian Empire because of the prevalence of cannibalism and cannibalism-based warfare?]

    - Will the Portuguese in southern Africa eventually encounter the pastoral Maasai as well as the Xhosa (who are also a pastoral people) as well as the fierce Zulu? Will the hostile contacts between the Iberian Empire and the Zulu result in the creation of the Zulu Kingdom under a number of Shaka Zulu-like rulers much, much earlier than in the OTL due to constant warfare with the Iberian Empire? Will this also result in the creation of the Impi as well as the development of the Buffalo Horns formation much earlier than in the OTLin order to counter the Spanish Tercio formation?

    - Will Japanese Catholic Christians eventually discover New Zealand, and that they name North Island and South Island as Small Kyushu and Small Honshu respectively while calling of these islands collectively as New Nippon? I'm also guessing that warfare between Japanese Catholic Christian samurai and Ashigaru versus hostile Maori - is very common?

    - Lastly, will the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth in your ATL not only be enlarged but also survive to the present day?

    Again, please let me know your answers to my questions very soon. Thank you!!! :):):)
    Last edited: Jun 20, 2017
  19. General Ripper Banned

    May 21, 2016
    Interesting development. I must commend you for the effort.

    Personally, I find it that Ignatus of Loyola becoming Pope is a bit of stretch ( too mucjh of Rule of cool, IMHO ), but never mind. So, Gregorians will be the new Jesuits, at least where education is concerned?
  20. Xenophonte Quod natura non dat, Salmantica non præstat.

    Feb 13, 2014
    South America
    The Rici's mentions did remind me that has been stated or interpreted that He did some 'arbitrary' translations and philosophic/theological adaptations in both directions (from Chinese concepts to Western and / or Latin concepts and vice versa) and later followed by his companions Jesuit that were at the origin of the 'Rite's controversy'.

    In addition, of course, by the rivalries, jealousy, incomprehension between religious orders and their factions within the Catholic Church and of course to a great extent by a certain religious ethnocentrism that equated the preaching of Catholicism with the culture, traditions and / or practices and customs associated with the European's religious tradition.

    Considering this faction (s) in Rome that it should not be an effort to adapt the Christian message to different cultures, but instead should be accepted at all with European culture by 'potential' or new converts.
    Nevertheless, it must be recognized that the adaptation and / or translation of such important and delicate dogmatic /philosophical questions for the Church, was logical to arouse legitimate concerns and fears about theirs orthodoxy and / o from its translation adaptation.
    In spite of the above, I must emphasize that the work undertaken and developed mainly by Mateo Rici but also continued by his sucessors.

    He was able to mastering not only the Chinese language, but also the Confucian philosophy and / or its traditions (at least that for a non-native, with the intellectual baggage of the his time could understand the Chinese philosophic tradition) could come to understand. Because the Jesuisty were able to not only translate and adapt, but to discuss theological concepts and / or their Platonic background, with their counterparts in the Middle Kingdom (Mandarines) this success was truly amazing.

    I believe that even today there would be no more than a handful of intellectuals in the world with the necessary formation, mastery and understanding of both philosophical traditions (besides, of course, the languages in which were devised: Latin, Greek and Chinese) and of course Christian/Catholic theology.

    Rici and at least part his successors were one of the most brilliant and talented (cultural) 'anthropologists' innate... not only of his time but, in my opinion, from History.
    mrcubfan415, TimTurner and Gabingston like this.