Una diferente ‘Plus Ultra’ - the Avís-Trastámara Kings of All Spain and the Indies (Updated 11/7)
- Thread starter Torbald
- Start date
Its understandable that Spain would still go through tremendous hyperinflation, but i was rather hoping that with owning half of italy Miguel would help kick off the renaissance in Spain. With all that Gold, and 'fewer' wars to fight I was kinda hoping Spanish paintings to rival OTL italian counterparts. Great Chapter glory to Avis-Trastamara.
Well Miguel cant do everything in his reign. Given his personality perhaps he wasnet a artsy type of king? Not everyone needed to be. I place my hopes on Juan who of course will inherit his mothers french love for arts and renaissance stuff. *glares at torbald*
I'll better see Titian in this timeline. If the portrait of Isabella of Portugal is used to show Juans wife, I might die or something of joy, the 1530s were glory days in the arts (I know I'm doing a paper on it)
I'll better see Titian in this timeline. If the portrait of Isabella of Portugal is used to show Juans wife, I might die or something of joy, the 1530s were glory days in the arts (I know I'm doing a paper on it)
And trust me, the rest of Europe is going to be battling some serious flames very soon.
True that. Luckily Juan Pelayo will have some pretty steady hands.
And while I personally don't believe in writing TLs in order to express what one thinks should have happened in history (as in, what one believes is morally preferrable), I was glad to make things turn out more humanely for some of Spain's subjects and friends this time around
I'll have to admit, I was kinda sad to let Miguel go...
Don't either of you worry, I have a cultural/societal update planned for some time in the future (also El Greco is my favorite painter so of course he's going to end up in Spain somehow ITTL).
Predictably, Miguel funneled a lot of the Crown's spending money into Cathedrals and religious pieces of art, so the arts certainly didn't suffer under his rule. As for his brother Fernando, the job of Viceroy of Naples is much less militarily-focused as it was IOTL, and - given Fernando's proximity to the Roman Renaissance and also given the recent exile of the Medicis - Fernando spent a lot of his vice-reign inviting artists and other cultured folk to Naples.
19. El Estado del Reino - Parte I: América Portuguesa (1500-1550)
~ El Estado del Reino ~
Parte I :
América Portuguesa
(c. 1500 - 1550)
Parte I :
América Portuguesa
(c. 1500 - 1550)
- “Guiné e seu irmão Nova Lusitânia,
e Angola e seu irmão Brasil” -
e Angola e seu irmão Brasil” -
Considering the enormous wealth awaiting the Portuguese in the portion of the Americas allotted to them by the Treaty of Tordesillas, it is remarkable that they did not take an earlier, more proactive approach to establishing a settler colony there or to exploiting its abundant resources. Accidentally discovered by Pedro Álvares Cabral in 1500, Portuguese America received possibly as few as 5,000 settlers (both permanent and transient) over the next 30 years, almost all of which stuck within a few miles of the coast and stayed for only part of the year to harvest brazilwood. This population remained static, as the colonists usually never bothering to bring their families with them, and only copulated with the female natives out of wedlock and when they felt like it. There were two developments that would reverse this situation: the proximity of Portuguese America to Africa and Portuguese experiences there, and the risk of foreign interlopers.
A primeira missa no Brasil
Regarding the former, the Portuguese had been investing in and exploring the western coast of Sub-Saharan Africa since they first passed the Equator in the 1430s. The islands of Cabo Verde and of São Tomé, Príncipe, and Fernando Pó were all conveniently located off this coast and afforded the Portuguese excellent training how to run plantation colonies in tropical conditions - especially in terms of the widespread use of slave labor. While the Portuguese had gained experience in cultivating sugar from Madeira, the Portuguese-owned islands to the south had proven that sugarcane, as well as a plethora of other cash crops, could be exploited on a grand scale if the lively West African slave trade could be monopolized. It was two Pereiras (of no relation), Duarte Pacheco and Duarte Coelho, who would lay the proper groundwork for the full-scale colonization of Portuguese America by their actions in Africa. Both Pacheco and Coelho had served extensively across the growing Portuguese Empire, but had spent their longest tenures involved in Guinea and the Gold Coast. While Pacheco would never be directly involved with the Americas, he had spent several years as the captain-major of the Portuguese possessions on the Gold Coast and he recognized the value of the huge disposable labor market that lay before him and cooperated with Coelho to import the first African slaves across the Atlantic in 1519 (13 from São Jorge da Mina). Meanwhile, Coelho had experience growing sugar from his plantations in Madeira and Cabo Verde, and was among the first to realize that the northern bend of Portuguese America had prodigious circumstances for the cultivation of sugarcane, tobacco, and cotton. Establishing himself in a region in the north Lusitanized as “Pernambuco,” Coelho began manipulating tribal rivalries between the locals, recruiting settlers from Portugal, and enslaving African and indio alike to grow his hereditary (as included in the royal land grant) captaincy’s resource production.
Eventually, Coelho’s captaincy had become the predominant force in Portuguese America, so much so that he deemed its environs “Nova Lusitânia” (later used to designate it from the south, which was referred to by the more colloquial name of “Brasil”) and accumulated enough revenue to build a quasi European-style city as Pernambuco’s (and thus Nova Lusitânia’s) administrative center at São Francisco da Olinda in 1534. The deeds of aggressive individuals such as Coelho proved to be a success, as Portuguese America would receive an additional 35,000 settlers between the years 1535 and 1600. The early and inevitable symbiotic relationship between Portuguese America and Africa also greatly accelerated the development of Nova Lusitânia and Brasil: besides the most important exports of slaves, gold, and ivory, the Portuguese also imported valuable foodstuffs such as citrus, cassava, and plantains. This relationship also (obviously) initiated one of the most brutal, rapacious slave trades in history (Duarte Pacheco’s captaincy over the Gold Coast is often alone credited with keeping that region exempt from King Miguel’s ban on the Sub-Saharan slave trade), with hundreds of thousands of Africans transported to Portuguese America in chains over several centuries. The demand for slave labor also increased the number of inter-tribal conflicts in Sub-Saharan Africa - such as those in the previously flourishing kingdom of Congo, the decline of which was almost parallel to the development of Portuguese Loanda. The necessity of African and indio slavery to the Portuguese colonies in the Americas became so intense, in fact, that Cristóbal de Pedraza, a follower of Bartolomé de las Casas, was murdered within only two weeks after having arrived in Pernambuco to preach against the enslavement and cruel treatment of Africans and indios.
Velho São Francisco da Olinda
Secondly, regarding the risk of foreigners, the first openly hostile foreign incursion into Portuguese America occurred in 1532, when a primarily French-manned carrack appeared off the coast of the Ilha de Itamaracá and held the Portuguese trading post there hostage for over 4 months. While this incident convinced the Portuguese to augment their naval patrols in the Southern Atlantic, it would take the establishment of full-blown French settlements to the south beginning in 1534 - with the first at an island they dubbed “Belle-île.” [1] - to convince the Portuguese to intensify their colonization. French subjects had been traipsing around Portuguese America almost as long as the Portuguese had, but were usually driven off after a few weeks, months, or years following bloody feuds with the Portuguese and between their respective native allies. While Belle-île primarily subsisted as a privateer colony, it represented a concerted effort sanctioned by Charles IX to subvert Spanish intentions in the New World, and was expected to be permanent, especially following the subsequent founding of Île-Résolue de Saint Jean [2] in 1535 as the de facto administrative center of the new colony.
Therefore, in order to both advance the frontier against the French and ensure the Castilians respect their treaty (considering the latter had founded two settlements far to the north of the Río de la Plata), and also to take advantage of the excellent harbor at the Baía de Guanabara (which up to this point only hosted a seasonally-occupied Portuguese feitoria), a joint expedition was organized by Pedro Mascarenhas, João de Castro, Lopo Soares de Albergaria, and Tristão and Nuno da Cunha (and funded in part by Duarte Coelho) to establish a permanent presence to the northeast of the French - all of which culminated in the settling of São Miguel Arcanjo da Guanabara [3] in early 1536. The very first royally-commissioned settlement in Portuguese America would be intended to fill the gap that had developed between the northern and southern captaincies. Ordered in 1540 and led by Garcia de Noronha, former captain of both Cochim and Moçambique, it was established at the Baía de Todos os Santos the same year as São Fernão da Bahía [4], with another settlement in the area being commissioned at Porto Seguro in 1542.
While the French presence in Brasil would only be mostly absorbed by the Portuguese during the chaos that consumed France in the 1550s (and only formally handed over in the late 1570s), its overthrow would be sealed in June of 1542, when João de Castro (at the time captain general of São Miguel Arcanjo), at the head of 800 Portuguese militiamen and 1400 native auxiliaries, defeated the 1200 strong force (300 Frenchmen, 900 Tamoio) of the French governor Louis Samuel d’Ambès 2 miles to the north of Île-Résolue at Fort Terre-Rouge. However, de Castro found the French too numerous and too intractable to consider dislodging them in their entirety, and so he settled with forcing the French to settle only within the boundaries of Belle-Île and the Île du Saint-Esprit [5], and with the replacement of the hardheaded d’Ambès with a candidate of his choosing. French colonists would continue to settle here for decades, even after the colony’s takeover given the family ties that had been established - leaving a distinct cultural impact on the region.
América Portuguesa, c. 1550
(1: Pernambuco e as capitanias do Norte, 2: São Fernão da Bahía e Porto Seguro, 3: São Miguel Arcanjo da Guanabara, 4: Isla de Santa Isabel, 5: Puerto del Infante, 6: France-Australe)
_______________________________________________________________________
[1] OTL Ilhabela
[2] OTL Ilha de São Vicente
[3] OTL Rio de Janeiro
[4] OTL São Salvador
[5] OTL Ilha de São Francisco del Sur
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could Espania just do what OTL Portugal did and pay those pesky french to stay out of South America?
I'm guessing France won't stop trying to colonize the new world even though they just lost their colonies in Brasil.
Better than OTL, but that's coming up! Should be after the India update, which is next.
That's a question I've been asking myself since finishing the last update. I figure it will probably go to the Portuguese due to the fact that they can't expand as far southward as they did IOTL, and also because it's easier to reach and maintain a land connection via Maranhão than it is via Guyana (and therefore Nueva Andalucía).
A mild spoiler from the last update mentions that "hundreds of thousands" of slaves would be brought to Brazil from Africa ITTL, a stark contrast to OTL's 4 million - So the Atlantic slave trade is going to remain incredibly frowned upon, if ... overlooked at times.
That's more or less what's going to happen officially in the 1570s, although not before French culture becomes an indelible facet of TTL Brazil and Cisplatina.
Yessir. In fact, they may even be luckier than IOTL. As much as I enjoy having the French battered during the first half of the 16th century, what happened to them historically I'm regards to wars of religion, getting shafted in the Americas, etc. all really do break my heart, and I'd like France to have much better outcomes in some of those areas.
20. El Estado del Reino - Parte II: Índia Portuguesa (1500-1550)
~ Estado del Reino ~
Parte II :
Índia Portuguesa
(c. 1500 - 1550)
Parte II :
Índia Portuguesa
(c. 1500 - 1550)
- A Casa da Índia -
Following Vasco da Gama’s expedition in 1498, the Portuguese had become the first to connect Europe to India by sea in hundreds of years - a connection which would be extremely profitable, with the first cargo brought back by da Gama being worth sixty times that of the cost of his expedition. However, the entry of the Portuguese into this heretofore closed market garnered a mixed reception at best. Beginning with the awkward and confused meeting with the Zamorin of Calicut (da Gama believed the Hindus were a deviant Christian sect, for example) - who was unimpressed with da Gama’s meagre gifts and eventually resolved to eject the Portuguese at the behest of his realm’s sizeable Muslim merchant community - the Portuguese newcomers made a chain of poorly thought-out decisions in the region that would hamper their eventual efforts for years to come. The pan-Islamic, anti-Christian conspiracy that the Portuguese were convinced was real when they arrived in India was more or less unfounded, but the Portuguese succeeded in making it real - somewhat inadvertently - through sheer aggression. After the subjugation of Calicut, the siege of Goa, and the other far-ranging campaigns of the incredibly talented but diplomatically coarse Afonso de Albuquerque, the entire Islamic world east of Ormus had practically united against the Portuguese menace and served to sour their reputation in the region almost irreparably.
Calicut
For the first 15 years of the 16th century, there were roughly only 4,000 Portuguese subjects east of the Cabo de Boa Esperança that the Crown could claim - virtually all of which were male and veterans of the plenitude of African conflicts Portugal involved itself in (which thereby gave them an elemental hatred of Islam). The Portuguese presence in India and the Orient was thus not only insufficient numerically, but was also one dominated by rowdy, well-armed men who were difficult to control and keep track of. What contributed to rapid success of the Portuguese in India and the Orient, then, was their martial attitude. The Portuguese conquests in the East carried with them - and were largely owed to - innumerable tales of near-superhuman boldness and resolve. While almost always outnumbered and often out-armed, the Portuguese beat back wave upon wave of able-bodied warriors from the Swahili to Malabar to Javan coasts through arduous displays of unmitigated physical courage, master class intimidation tactics, and foolhardy stubbornness. The Portuguese were also assisted in their endeavors by their almost excessive predilection for armament - the average Portuguese caravela often carried three spears and one sword per man. Likewise, while gunpowder had been slow to arrive to the Iberian peninsula, the Iberian kingdoms took to it with remarkable keenness, and Portuguese ships were made sure to be bristling with bronze cannons (which were comparable nimble for the time). The Portuguese burst into the Indian Ocean and beyond with alarming alacrity and readiness for combat, both of which - combined with their unmatched aptitude for the art of navigation - rendered the most trafficked seas east of the Cabo their mare clausum within a matter of years after their arrival.
The conquests of “o grande e terrível” Afonso de Albuquerque or his comrade Francisco de Almeida were not primarily detrimental, however. For instance, Almeida’s defeat of the Zamorin of Calicut gave Portugal free reign in all of the major Malabari ports and also forced the Zamorin to swear fealty to the Portuguese crown. Similarly, Albuquerque’s capture of Ormus and Muscat in 1507 and of Goa in 1510 earned the ire of the Persians and the upstart Adil Shah (called Hidalcão by the Portuguese) of the Bijapur Sultanate, but also gave the Portuguese an invaluable plug into the heart of India, succeeded in convincing Persia to consider a more cooperative relationship with Spain in the long run, and also cornered the valuable Persian horse trade - which put Portuguese Goa in a position to affect at will the outcome of the myriad conflicts between the neighboring Bijapur Sultanate and the Vijayanagara Empire (the latter of which was almost always favored). Vasco da Gama and his sons Francisco, Estêvão and Cristóvão also did their part, becoming Viceroys, participating in the founding of a feitoria in Masulipatão in 1518, leading the capture of Aden in 1520, and in undertaking virtually independent campaigns against the kingdoms of Jaffna and Gujarat. The da Gamas also played a fundamental role in the early linkage of the Portuguese empire. For instance, Estêvão maintained a stately house and plantation in Zanzibar, while his older brother Francisco married a Malayalam noblewoman and owned plantations on the isle of Príncipe in the Gulf of Guinea, and his younger brother Cristóvão served as Duarte Pacheco Pereira’s lieutenant in Malaca while also maintaining a home and ranch in Sulafrica and leading campaigns to assist the Ethiopians against the Adal Sultanate. In 15 years, the Portuguese had not only stringed together an unprecedentedly vast network of global trade, but also become kingmakers and commerce-controllers in some of the oldest, richest, and most populous kingdoms on Earth.
Sé Catedral, Goa
Nonetheless, the negative effects of the gunboat diplomacy embodied by Albuquerque and his compatriots would take decades - and, in some cases, centuries - to remedy. During the first half of the 16th century, the Portuguese took little interest in an active evangelization of the peoples of the Indian subcontinent or in permanent settlement of their new possessions, and it would not be until the early 17th century that the Portuguese in India would begin to make headway in converting the Indians or in establishing a self-sufficient colonial community of crioulos and Luso-Indians (later known as castiços). This process would be made much easier by the establishment of a highly autonomous “Estado da Índia” - a polity based in Goa and governed by a viceroy and kept in check every three years by the council of the Casa da Índia in Lisbon (which was formally separated from the “Casa da Índia e da Guiné” in 1506 and functioned as a counterpart to the Castilian Casa de Contratación).
The enormity of the task of establishing comprehensive Portuguese rule in such a distant and often hostile region as India necessitated a centralized authority which would carry with it the full weight of royal authority so as to allow for quick and informed decision-making. While the purpose of the Estado da Índia was to centralize and focus Portuguese efforts in India, a compromise had to be made to satisfy the willful Afonso de Albuquerque, who was granted Goa, Diu, Chaul, Baçaim in India and Muscat and Ormus in the Persian Gulf as his governorate (along with Goa as a ducal title), while the first viceroy Francisco de Almeida received Cochim, Coulão, Calicut, Cannanore, Mangalore, Negapatam, Meliapore, Paliacate, and the Laquedivas - with Pedro Álvares Cabral established as Almeida’s subordinate as the first captain general of Portuguese possessions in Ceylon (Ceilão) in 1517. Only the hereditary, honorific title of “Duque de Goa” would be passed to Albuquerque’s son Brás upon the former’s death in 1517, with the rest returning to the administration of the viceroy.
(Teal: Portuguese hegemony, Light Teal: Portuguese vassals and protectorates, Green: Muslim states, Orange: Hindu States)
1: Calicut, 2: Kotte, 3: Vijayanagara Empire, 4: Bijapur Siltanate, 5: Sur Empire, 6: Goa and its pale
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@Torbald
I think Since Northern Luzon at that time is dominated by the remnants of Majapahit years before the Spanish came, a Neo-Majapahitan kingdom will rule Luzon in OTL regions 1-3 as a vassal of Portuguese under the name Ludaõ from the Malay name of Luzon which is Selurong and pick up christianity from Bali and Sunda and choose to accept christianity and protection by portugal via these nations..the major statelets in northern Luzon are basically united under one dynasty, a cadet lineage of the Rajasa/Majapahit dynasty..this is basically due to Luzon being a part of Majapahit a few decades before the spanish came..
I think they would be fine under a vassal agreement with Portugal to protect against their traditional enemy the bruneians, I don't think a united half of Luzon would be against the Portuguese, since its sister states like Bali and Sunda they would like Portuguese protection..
I think Since Northern Luzon at that time is dominated by the remnants of Majapahit years before the Spanish came, a Neo-Majapahitan kingdom will rule Luzon in OTL regions 1-3 as a vassal of Portuguese under the name Ludaõ from the Malay name of Luzon which is Selurong and pick up christianity from Bali and Sunda and choose to accept christianity and protection by portugal via these nations..the major statelets in northern Luzon are basically united under one dynasty, a cadet lineage of the Rajasa/Majapahit dynasty..this is basically due to Luzon being a part of Majapahit a few decades before the spanish came..
I think they would be fine under a vassal agreement with Portugal to protect against their traditional enemy the bruneians, I don't think a united half of Luzon would be against the Portuguese, since its sister states like Bali and Sunda they would like Portuguese protection..
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Good old gunboat diplomacy, although it is nice to see Portugal actually be friendly with the Hindus and Persians.
Wow you updated fast! An early East India by the Portuguese will be HUGE for Iberia, but I think their gonna want to reinforce their numbers with Castilian, and Catalans if they hope to have the same influence that Britain and the Dutch had. Britain seemed to have paid special attention to India, and the Dutch to Indonesia, if Portugal wants to do both at the same time, they're gonna have a hard time about it. I know this will seem a strange request but will you be doing a Japanese update soon? I know the Portuguese were the first to reach the islands and I'm interested in how a Portugal augmented by United Iberia will act. Great update, Glory to Avis-Trastamara.
Interesting ATL you have here Torbald. Please keep up the good work. Also, could you please threadmark your last few chapters, please? Also, I have a few questions in regards to future chapters f your ATL, and they are:
- Will either the Spanish or the Portuguese eventually colonize Macao aka Macau - and perhaps an island known as Hong Kong (including its OTL the New Territories)? Will either the Spanish or the Portuguese also colonize Formosa aka Taiwan (and the nearby Pescadores Islands)? what about the island of Hainan? If so, what will the relations between Iberian Empire and Ming and Qing Dynasties China be like? Will the Iberian Empire have a presence in Indochina (i.e. Myanmar/Burma, Thailand, Laos, Cambodia, and Vietnam)? Will the Portuguese set up a permanent presence in Singapura aka Singapore not as trade entreport (at first) but as armed naval base to constantly harry the hostile Kingdom of Johore aka Johor Sultanate (the most southernmost kingdom of the Malay Peninsula and one of the successor states to the fallen Malacca Sultanate that fell after the Portuguese invasion of Malacca) as well as to protect Portuguese-controlled Malacca and/or to become as a future launching pad for the invasion of the Spice Islands aka the Moluccas in order to have full control of the lucrative spice trade? Will the Portuguese (who are more aggressive in this ATL) eventually conquer and colonize Pulau Penang aka Penang Island?
- Will the Iberian Empire greet and meet the members of the Tensho Embassy sent by the Christianized Daimyo Otomo Sorin as well as the Koichi Embassy led by Hasekura Tsunenaga under the orders of the Christian-friendly Daimyo Date Masamune aka the One-Eyed Dragon? Moreover, will the king/emperor of the Iberian Empire react when he hears that Japanese Christians are being persecuted/killed under the Tokugawa Shogunate? Will this lead to war between the empires or at least offer full support of Christianized and/or Christian-friendly daimyo to overthrow the Tokugawa or just break-away from the Tokugawa?
Please let me know your answers to my questions. Thank you.
- Will either the Spanish or the Portuguese eventually colonize Macao aka Macau - and perhaps an island known as Hong Kong (including its OTL the New Territories)? Will either the Spanish or the Portuguese also colonize Formosa aka Taiwan (and the nearby Pescadores Islands)? what about the island of Hainan? If so, what will the relations between Iberian Empire and Ming and Qing Dynasties China be like? Will the Iberian Empire have a presence in Indochina (i.e. Myanmar/Burma, Thailand, Laos, Cambodia, and Vietnam)? Will the Portuguese set up a permanent presence in Singapura aka Singapore not as trade entreport (at first) but as armed naval base to constantly harry the hostile Kingdom of Johore aka Johor Sultanate (the most southernmost kingdom of the Malay Peninsula and one of the successor states to the fallen Malacca Sultanate that fell after the Portuguese invasion of Malacca) as well as to protect Portuguese-controlled Malacca and/or to become as a future launching pad for the invasion of the Spice Islands aka the Moluccas in order to have full control of the lucrative spice trade? Will the Portuguese (who are more aggressive in this ATL) eventually conquer and colonize Pulau Penang aka Penang Island?
- Will the Iberian Empire greet and meet the members of the Tensho Embassy sent by the Christianized Daimyo Otomo Sorin as well as the Koichi Embassy led by Hasekura Tsunenaga under the orders of the Christian-friendly Daimyo Date Masamune aka the One-Eyed Dragon? Moreover, will the king/emperor of the Iberian Empire react when he hears that Japanese Christians are being persecuted/killed under the Tokugawa Shogunate? Will this lead to war between the empires or at least offer full support of Christianized and/or Christian-friendly daimyo to overthrow the Tokugawa or just break-away from the Tokugawa?
Please let me know your answers to my questions. Thank you.
Spanish spreading Christianity while fighting in the sengoku jidai would be sooooo soooo cool, I just cant even.Interesting ATL you have here Torbald. Please keep up the good work. Also, could you please threadmark your last few chapters, please? Also, I have a few questions in regards to future chapters f your ATL, and they are:
- Will either the Spanish or the Portuguese eventually colonize Macao aka Macau - and perhaps an island known as Hong Kong (including its OTL the New Territories)? Will either the Spanish or the Portuguese also colonize Formosa aka Taiwan (and the nearby Pescadores Islands)? what about the island of Hainan? If so, what will the relations between Iberian Empire and Ming and Qing Dynasties China be like? Will the Iberian Empire have a presence in Indochina (i.e. Myanmar/Burma, Thailand, Laos, Cambodia, and Vietnam)? Will the Portuguese set up a permanent presence in Singapura aka Singapore not as trade entreport (at first) but as armed naval base to constantly harry the hostile Kingdom of Johore aka Johor Sultanate (the most southernmost kingdom of the Malay Peninsula and one of the successor states to the fallen Malacca Sultanate that fell after the Portuguese invasion of Malacca) as well as to protect Portuguese-controlled Malacca and/or to become as a future launching pad for the invasion of the Spice Islands aka the Moluccas in order to have full control of the lucrative spice trade? Will the Portuguese (who are more aggressive in this ATL) eventually conquer and colonize Pulau Penang aka Penang Island?
- Will the Iberian Empire greet and meet the members of the Tensho Embassy sent by the Christianized Daimyo Otomo Sorin as well as the Koichi Embassy led by Hasekura Tsunenaga under the orders of the Christian-friendly Daimyo Date Masamune aka the One-Eyed Dragon? Moreover, will the king/emperor of the Iberian Empire react when he hears that Japanese Christians are being persecuted/killed under the Tokugawa Shogunate? Will this lead to war between the empires or at least offer full support of Christianized and/or Christian-friendly daimyo to overthrow the Tokugawa or just break-away from the Tokugawa?
Please let me know your answers to my questions. Thank you.
Virtually everything north of Manila is going to coalesce into a state much like Sunda or Bali, as you've suggested - I realize now that such is the more realistic option. I imagine Christianity and Islam will slowly percolate into this Luzon state, although Christianity will probably have much better luck and the Luzon government will most likely toy with converting to either Islam or Christianity depending on which serves their relations with their powerful neighbors better (much like pagan Lithuania did with the Catholic Poles and the Orthodox Rus) before eventually settling on Christianity once the Portuguese begin to more comprehensively assert their authority.
Although wouldn't Luzon ITTL be referred to as Luçon (with the inhabitants called Luções) by the Portuguese as it was IOTL?
Thank you very much
all the updates are threadmarked now, so hopefully that'll make things easier on you.True - if not for a little brusqueness here and there, what would they have really accomplished?
I think relations with the Persians - while incredibly bitter at the moment - are going to improve greatly once the Spanish gravitate towards a Persian alliance as a counterweight to the Ottomans.
Getting the Portuguese to share their incredibly lucrative business with their Castilian and Catalan brothers will be quite difficult, but Juan Pelayo and some of his successors will be doing things to force Portugal into some mandatory bonding with its neighbors, if you will.
You're right that the most worrying prospect for Portuguese dominance of India and the Orient is the eventual entry of the English and the Dutch - who will inevitably be getting some holdings. However, the making of elbow room for the English and Dutch will probably be on much more peaceful terms for the Spanish given their better relations ITTL.
Japan is a bit of a tough nut to crack. There's nothing to prevent the fact that the Portuguese are going to want to trade with the Japanese and evangelize them, and similarly little to stop the Japanese from responding in a way similar as IOTL. However, if the Portuguese are more proactive in supporting Japanese Christian dissident groups, and if they can convince the Chinese that a disunited Japan with a portion of its populace undermining its Emperor's divine image are both good things for China, then Japan might be unable to fully close itself like in OTL and the Sengoku Jidai will probably last much longer. While this has the potential to earn for Spain the hatred of the Japanese in the long run, it might work the other way as well - with the Japanese government forced into a compromise with their Christianized subjects, who will be assigned high levels of regional autonomy in exchange for obedience to the Emperor. Following this, it is not unlikely that Portugal/Spain won't have to act all that aggressively towards Japan in order to bring such a solution about, and relations between the two nations would naturally ameliorate following fruitful trade deals.
Interesting ATL you have here Torbald. Please keep up the good work. Also, could you please threadmark your last few chapters, please? Also, I have a few questions in regards to future chapters of your ATL, and they are:
- Will either the Spanish or the Portuguese eventually colonize Macao aka Macau - and perhaps an island known as Hong Kong (including its OTL the New Territories)? Will either the Spanish or the Portuguese also colonize Formosa aka Taiwan (and the nearby Pescadores Islands)? what about the island of Hainan? If so, what will the relations between Iberian Empire and Ming and Qing Dynasties China be like? Will the Iberian Empire have a presence in Indochina (i.e. Myanmar/Burma, Thailand, Laos, Cambodia, and Vietnam)? Will the Portuguese set up a permanent presence in Singapura aka Singapore not as trade entreport (at first) but as armed naval base to constantly harry the hostile Kingdom of Johore aka Johor Sultanate (the most southernmost kingdom of the Malay Peninsula and one of the successor states to the fallen Malacca Sultanate that fell after the Portuguese invasion of Malacca) as well as to protect Portuguese-controlled Malacca and/or to become as a future launching pad for the invasion of the Spice Islands aka the Moluccas in order to have full control of the lucrative spice trade? Will the Portuguese (who are more aggressive in this ATL) eventually conquer and colonize Pulau Penang aka Penang Island?
- Will the Iberian Empire greet and meet the members of the Tensho Embassy sent by the Christianized Daimyo Otomo Sorin as well as the Koichi Embassy led by Hasekura Tsunenaga under the orders of the Christian-friendly Daimyo Date Masamune aka the One-Eyed Dragon? Moreover, will the king/emperor of the Iberian Empire react when he hears that Japanese Christians are being persecuted/killed under the Tokugawa Shogunate? Will this lead to war between the empires or at least offer full support of Christianized and/or Christian-friendly daimyo to overthrow the Tokugawa or just break-away from the Tokugawa?
Please let me know your answers to my questions. Thank you.
Thank you! Now, pardon me answering your questions (mostly) out of order:
Controlling Malacca is, of course, extremely important to the Portuguese presence in Indonesia and beyond, but, with the difficulty of holding it against endless Muslim attacks by land and sea and the gradual arrival of other expansion-minded European naval powers in the area, I can only see Spain handing over Malacca and whatever other ports they have in the region to the highest (preferrably Christian) bidder. Also, once bigger and better ships come around and allow for much more vast expanses of sea to be traversed, the holding of chokepoints like the Straits of Malacca will become slightly less important. Spanish Malaya will probably be sold (more likely) or taken (less likely) sometime in the 18th or early 19th century. As for Singapore, I'm not so sure, although I'm inclined to say that it will probably be claimed and built up by the Portuguese and settled with Kristangs, Yue Chinese, and Orang Laut. Penang will probably follow the same path.
Regarding Taiwan, Hainan, and the Pescadores, I think Spain/the Portuguese will probably try to colonize/dominate them, but will eventually hand them over to the Chinese or a favorable, Christian-tolerant East Asian group (either Japanese/Korean/or Chinese Christians - in fact, these islands might even become a Spanish-sponsored refuge for Chinese Christians). What I'm more or less planning on happening is the Portuguese helping to prop up TTL's Southern Ming loyalists - an arrangement that will probably piss off the Qing, but will also afford the Portuguese powerful allies who can provide manpower in the region that they otherwise could only dream of, and, in turn, force the Qing into a disposition more favorable to the Portuguese. Think Coxinga, but Christian and Westerner-friendly.
The right to trade with wealthy, civilized China is the envy of the Western wordl, and will only come more so as time goes on. As the Pearl River estuary is the most convenient point of entry for those sailing from the west and south, it will naturally be the center of Portuguese-Chinese contact, and the Macao/Hong Kong islands will most assuredly be granted in some part to Spain for the sake of keeping trade consistent. If a bona fide colonial Spanish presence can't be achieved on these isles, they'll probably be secured for Spanish trade in much the same way as Taiwan/Hainan/etc. - that being the establishment of a Chinese pirate/black market community there out of the Qing's reach.
Overall, I think the Qing will resent the Portuguese presence and will desire to expunge it, but ultimately will have to bend to Portuguese demands in order to gain access to Spain's precious metals. There might very well be a totally separate Chinese state in Guangdong/Southern China/Taiwan/Hainan that trades openly with Spain and tolerates Christianity and missionary activity by the 17th or 18th century.
Now, as for Japan, TTL Spain will have its hands much less tied than OTL Spain or Portugal, and consequently will be able to devote more men and resources to far off projects such as intervening in the Japanese persecution of Christians. As for how that will play out, I've detailed most of it in my response above to The Merovingian. What is important for Spain is naval supremacy, especially should open war break out with Japan. Ensuring that the anti-Christian daimyos can't intercept the Christian/Christian-friendly daimyos maritime support from Spain will prevent Japanese Christian rebellions from being wiped out as they were IOTL.
Wouldn't it?
Conquistadors vs SamuraiImagine magnates in New Spain or Spanish India contracting bands of samurai to fight for them... That's it. I've made up my mind. That's gonna happen.