Una diferente ‘Plus Ultra’ - the Avís-Trastámara Kings of All Spain and the Indies (Updated 11/7)

[Santo Nombre]

Would it be possible for the viceroyalties to be forced to treat their subjects (mostly) equally just as they would in Iberia? It may go a long way towards avoiding the resentment towards the crown by the people and even ruling class

The Crown will have to enforce that. I'd say a most certainly easy step is to ensure there is no differentiation between Peninsulares and Creoles (which is so mind numbingly dumb). Maybe even the Mestizos as well. But as for the natives and African slaves? Unlikely.

AFAIK, the historical spanish empire was an ancien regime society, so a political structure based on class and group privileges. Social mobility was limited but every group can ask for more private laws (privileges): many indigenous noblemen keep their titles and status after the conquest; The tribes who sided with the spanish were granted autonomy and self rule; even to the slaves (who had some rights and can became free, even if many were not aware of them) who revolted and were unstopped the viceroy gave them some rights .
What I mean is that equallity in the political sense is too modern as a concept and oposed to the world view of the 16th century. You need a radical change in the social and economic tissue in order to bring this idea on, that is Capitalism (everything is a commodity) and Industrialization (everyone is an interchangeable piece), so wait for another century at least.

 

[Tursiops Amicus]

Tbh, and while the there is some merit to have the capital divided (mostly not anger the other two kingdoms where that capital wouldn't be) at some point there needs to be a focal point for the ever-expanding government and its institutions to function. It can be fairly de-centralize true, the distribution of EU institution among its members could be a good template, but a "capital" de facto if not de juris is needed in the long term (We already see some of it with Sevilla and the Casa de la Contratacion being the American stuff capital). The executive at least, with all the archives and papers it accumulates that shouldn't be moving to much, the infrastructure that is simply cheaper to put it in one place than trying to have multiple locations, so I would recommend to put it in one place.

To me at least, it seem that there are two locations that are above all others, Toledo and Lisboa. And while I might prefer slightly Lisboa, the two are the less bad options.

-Toledo, Pros; centrally located in the middle of Iberia, symbolic capital of the Visigoths, already kinda of the spiritual capital of the dynasty where they crowned themselves, it make sense that the largest kingdom and the one who bear the brunt of responsibilities on its defence should have it (Or Castilians would see as an insult to choose others and as the largest constituency simply make sense to appease them) and as is inland, is defended from British or Muslim raids.
Cons; is inland and thus somewhat disconnected from Iberian possessions overseas and global trade, throw fuel to the fire of Castilian domination in Portuguese and Aragonese minds to which the symbolic and shared connotations of the old Visigothic capital would mean little (tho little is more than nothing, in comparison to other city like Madrid or Seville)

-Lisboa, Pros; great port city connected to trade and the empire, is some way still the origin of the dynasty as Miguel de la Paz was fundamentally a Portuguese educated mostly in Lisboa and thus not that out of character, but mostly it placates Portuguse anxieties of Castilian domination while at the same time keeping them at a tight lease (Keep your friends close, your enemies closer).
Cons; Castilians would be furious, not good when they are the largest tax and manpower base, with "We saved their empire with Castilian money and soldiers only for them to end up with the capital?!" aplenty. The Aragonese won't be please too, as being in Lisboa is the opposite side of the peninsula and from the Mediterranean where their interest lay. Also vulnerable to raids and invasion by sea and not a centric position on Iberia

Edit; Barcelona is a great city, but terribly close to the French border and even less centric than Lisboa + Portuguese independence is currently stronger and more problematic than the Catalan one.

I think Seville would be the best: Guadalquivir river was somewhat navigable to the city, so you can transport goods from Cadiz. From Cadiz is easy to travel to Lisboa by sea and even Barcelona isn't so far.
Being inland it has some protection from maritime raids. It has a big and fertile hinterland, so you can feed a big population.
You can save some time travelling to central Spain, moreso if you build a good road through Sierra Morena mountains.
I would keep Toledo as Castillian capital though.

 

[someone45356]

Would it be possible for the viceroyalties to be forced to treat their subjects (mostly) equally just as they would in Iberia? It may go a long way towards avoiding the resentment towards the crown by the people and even ruling class

That’s not why the viceroyalties independized. The people themselves were very split and a lot of reasoning had more to do with Spain at the time of the revolutions going too liberal which had angered the rich criollos at the americas, who were also the ones that lead the successful revolutions for the most part, and likewise the minorities and natives were usually the ones putting up the fight against the criollos since they knew the revolutions would only benefit the criollos and not them at all. In places like mexico it was a little different since the decision was seen more unilaterally with the whole liberal vs conservative topic within all the rich elites.

Even long before in the case of the famous Tupac Amaru II, he wasn’t a man of the people but a rich cacique who was at the brink of bankruptcy over taxes and who was actually disposed of by the very same local natives who found him too problematic and because he caused the most bloodshed in the spanish americas that century due to the in-fighting.

Also its good to know the real policies Spain as an empire had and why so much of this was like that. Starting by the fact that the viceroyalties were just as part of spain as any other province was, we tend to use the word colony a lot but the definition in regards to how the spanish were in there is definitely not the same as like how the british or french went about with colonizing. The americas were mainly run by the caciques and other rich locals, not as much by the crown of spain. There were Viceroys and often they were from the peninsula, but that had always been Habsburg policy to make sure that viceroys and other administrative positions weren’t of the same place as the ones theyd look over. ATL Spain is a little different than that however so I wonder how that would play a part. Also in regards to native rights, there were many laws that were historically put in place that protected the native americans. Las leyes de burgos, las leyes nuevas de 1542, and a lot of other decrees that would come later that were of the benefit of the locals at the americas. There was also an interesting quirk about the spanish empire, literally anyone could send a letter to the king at spain and if the matter was important enough it could be made into a decree.

The amount of collaboration the natives of the americas and spain proper had was what made the empire last for 300 years, and it was exactly the disconnect that cut that off just as quickly. But for examples of things spain did before and after that include the quechua-spanish dictionary which is actually like one of the oldest ones in the world, even older than the english dictionary. The spanish in the early 19th century being the ones to establish the first transcontinental vaccine program to new spain at the time. And decades later in the mid 19th century they provided cuba with their first railroad system, before even spain proper even had theirs.

i wouldn’t say it was perfect either, for example in regards to the mapuche the spanish had made an agreement that they wouldn’t touch their lands so long as the mapuche helped with spain at defending the territories. But often the spanish and the mapuche‘s relations would falter back and forth even after making agreements. Or for example how hard it is to govern places so far away that things like underground slave trading on the fringe territories was not unheard of, but for what its worth the kings and queens of spain themselves would more often than not be pro-native really.

 

[anyone]

Thanks for the answers to my question, they were very informative. I had misconceptions around the complexities surrounding the revolutions in the americas.

 

[Tursiops Amicus]

That’s not why the viceroyalties independized. The people themselves were very split and a lot of reasoning had more to do with Spain at the time of the revolutions going too liberal which had angered the rich criollos at the americas, who were also the ones that lead the successful revolutions for the most part, and likewise the minorities and natives were usually the ones putting up the fight against the criollos since they knew the revolutions would only benefit the criollos and not them at all. In places like mexico it was a little different since the decision was seen more unilaterally with the whole liberal vs conservative topic within all the rich elites.

Even long before in the case of the famous Tupac Amaru II, he wasn’t a man of the people but a rich cacique who was at the brink of bankruptcy over taxes and who was actually disposed of by the very same local natives who found him too problematic and because he caused the most bloodshed in the spanish americas that century due to the in-fighting.

Also its good to know the real policies Spain as an empire had and why so much of this was like that. Starting by the fact that the viceroyalties were just as part of spain as any other province was, we tend to use the word colony a lot but the definition in regards to how the spanish were in there is definitely not the same as like how the british or french went about with colonizing. The americas were mainly run by the caciques and other rich locals, not as much by the crown of spain. There were Viceroys and often they were from the peninsula, but that had always been Habsburg policy to make sure that viceroys and other administrative positions weren’t of the same place as the ones theyd look over. ATL Spain is a little different than that however so I wonder how that would play a part. Also in regards to native rights, there were many laws that were historically put in place that protected the native americans. Las leyes de burgos, las leyes nuevas de 1542, and a lot of other decrees that would come later that were of the benefit of the locals at the americas. There was also an interesting quirk about the spanish empire, literally anyone could send a letter to the king at spain and if the matter was important enough it could be made into a decree.

The amount of collaboration the natives of the americas and spain proper had was what made the empire last for 300 years, and it was exactly the disconnect that cut that off just as quickly. But for examples of things spain did before and after that include the quechua-spanish dictionary which is actually like one of the oldest ones in the world, even older than the english dictionary. The spanish in the early 19th century being the ones to establish the first transcontinental vaccine program to new spain at the time. And decades later in the mid 19th century they provided cuba with their first railroad system, before even spain proper even had theirs.

i wouldn’t say it was perfect either, for example in regards to the mapuche the spanish had made an agreement that they wouldn’t touch their lands so long as the mapuche helped with spain at defending the territories. But often the spanish and the mapuche‘s relations would falter back and forth even after making agreements. Or for example how hard it is to govern places so far away that things like underground slave trading on the fringe territories was not unheard of, but for what its worth the kings and queens of spain themselves would more often than not be pro-native really.

Very good explanation.

It's very usual that most people consider that Spanish America was ruled like British colonies, but really they were more similar to British dominions.

 

[paulpskordilis]

Considering that Pax Hispanica is going to last for hundreds of years here, if a writer centuries into the future were to write a Lord of the Rings-style epic creating an imagined mythology for this ATL's Spain, what would its key features be?

 

[Bleh]

Considering that Pax Hispanica is going to last for hundreds of years here, if a writer centuries into the future were to write a Lord of the Rings-style epic creating an imagined mythology for this ATL's Spain, what would its key features be?

Tolkien drew heavily from Norse mythology for his works so I personally love the idea that ITTL 20th century fantasy will be dominated by magical settings with Roman pantheon and Mediterranean cultural aesthetics. Who knows though, the 20th century will probably look incredibly wild and different lol

 

[Tursiops Amicus]

Tolkien drew heavily from Norse mythology for his works so I personally love the idea that ITTL 20th century fantasy will be dominated by magical settings with Roman pantheon and Mediterranean cultural aesthetics. Who knows though, the 20th century will probably look incredibly wild and different lol

Maybe something like that: Mitología Asturiana

 

[WotanArgead]

Tolkien drew heavily from Norse mythology for his works so I personally love the idea that ITTL 20th century fantasy will be dominated by magical settings with Roman pantheon and Mediterranean cultural aesthetics. Who knows though, the 20th century will probably look incredibly wild and different lol

Maybe something like that: Mitología Asturiana

In fact, it should be remembered that Tolkien primarily wanted to fill the gap in the form of the absence of a separate epic about Scandinavia and Germany among the Anglo-Saxons (he contrasts the English with the British). With Spain everything is more complicated - which tradition to rely on? And almost all pre-Roman ones are fragmentary. And almost all the peoples of Iberia speak derivatives of Latin. The fact that the Spaniards are exploring North Africa does not help.

Well, by the way, Tolkien has influence from Roman and Hellenic traditions.

 

[Jan Olbracht]

In fact, it should be remembered that Tolkien primarily wanted to fill the gap in the form of the absence of a separate epic about Scandinavia and Germany among the Anglo-Saxons (he contrasts the English with the British). With Spain everything is more complicated - which tradition to rely on? And almost all pre-Roman ones are fragmentary. And almost all the peoples of Iberia speak derivatives of Latin. The fact that the Spaniards are exploring North Africa does not help.

Well, by the way, Tolkien has influence from Roman and Hellenic traditions.

Imagine Elvish languages inspired by Basque.

 

[WotanArgead]

Imagine Elvish languages inspired by Basque.

Possibly conditional "Sindarin". Quenya is based on Finnish language

 

[paulpskordilis]

Tolkien drew heavily from Norse mythology for his works so I personally love the idea that ITTL 20th century fantasy will be dominated by magical settings with Roman pantheon and Mediterranean cultural aesthetics. Who knows though, the 20th century will probably look incredibly wild and different lol

Maybe something like that: Mitología Asturiana

One important difference: the idea that farmers could go on heroic quests against demonic spirits would have been entirely alien to a nation forged through the Reconquista and whose national heroes are warriors such as Don Pelayo, El Cid, Isabella I of Castile etc.

In fact, it should be remembered that Tolkien primarily wanted to fill the gap in the form of the absence of a separate epic about Scandinavia and Germany among the Anglo-Saxons (he contrasts the English with the British). With Spain everything is more complicated - which tradition to rely on? And almost all pre-Roman ones are fragmentary. And almost all the peoples of Iberia speak derivatives of Latin. The fact that the Spaniards are exploring North Africa does not help.

Well, by the way, Tolkien has influence from Roman and Hellenic traditions.

I imagine this ATL's version of the Lord of the Rings will be attempting to create an epic for the pre-Christian Visigoths, and the Spanish conquest of North Africa will be alluded to by whatever the 'Free Peoples' are called here conquering the South and the East.

Imagine Elvish languages inspired by Basque.

Possibly conditional "Sindarin". Quenya is based on Finnish language

I imagine the Black Speech would be based on Mozarabic/Ajami here. Dark Emir Sauron wearing a turban, anyone?

 

[WotanArgead]

One important difference: the idea that farmers could go on heroic quests against demonic spirits would have been entirely alien to a nation forged through the Reconquista and whose national heroes are warriors such as Don Pelayo, El Cid, Isabella of Castile etc.

Only this is the result not of imitation of any tradition, but of Tolkien’s personal views - he was a veteran of the First World War, and it was important for him to show the look of the “little man.” It is all the more important that in his hierarchy the stamina of the “little people” is higher than military valor.

I imagine this ATL's version of the Lord of the Rings will be attempting to create an epic for the pre-Christian Visigoths, and the Spanish conquest of North Africa will be alluded to by whatever the 'Free Peoples' are called here conquering the South and the East.

Only the Visigoths were the top of the military caste, and the bulk of the population was a Roman-Ibero-Celtic mixture. England is a German-speaking country. Moreover, Tolkien avoided direct parallels - the dark kingdom of Angmar was in the North (in Zorasterism the forces of darkness live in the North).

I imagine the Black Speech would be based on Mozarabic/Ajami here

Tolkien was an open-minded man. The “Black Speech” was based on highly modified Hurrian.

 

[Aceituno]

I wonder what will happen with the Couto Misto now with a stronger iberian union...

Couto Misto - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[paulpskordilis]

While the Constitution of the German Empire didn't specify the Kaiser's gender, the Imperial Crown was tied to the Prussian throne subject to Salic Law, meaning that in effect only men could be Emperor. With Juan Pelayo having proclaimed the indissolubility of the Spanish Union, is the crown of Spain similarly tied to the Salic Law-bound throne of Aragon, which similarly means that only men can accede to the Spanish throne?

@Torbald

 

[isabella]

While the Constitution of the German Empire didn't specify the Kaiser's gender, the Imperial Crown was tied to the Prussian throne subject to Salic Law, meaning that in effect only men could be Emperor. With Juan Pelayo having proclaimed the indissolubility of the Spanish Union, is the crown of Spain similarly tied to the Salic Law-bound throne of Aragon, which similarly means that only men can accede to the Spanish throne?

@Torbald

Aragon‘s laws of succession was more a semi-salic or female exclusion succession than a true Salic one and is likely who here Aragon would be subjected to the same male preference succession of Castile and Portugal

 

[paulpskordilis]

It has been mentioned here that Spain will develop to become a naval power on part with OTL's Britain. Similarly, will Spain become a land power on par with, say, Germany? Or will the realities of industrialisation limit its land power to the size of, say, Britain/France?

 

[Aceituno]

The Saadians still control the south of Morocco... but will Spain be succesful trying to take control of the region? I'm curious how the trans-saharan trade will come out in this timeline

 

[Avian2023]

I recently caught up with this TL, and it's amazing. Props to you for making it. I was wondering if, in future updates on Nueva Espana or Nueva Catilla in this TL, you were going to incorporate the dragones de cuera into it. They were relatively small in numbers but were the main force combating the Comanche in Spanish Texas and California. They could be used in conflicts with the French in a timeline where they are expanded. Anyway, really good work.

 

[Stark]

Yep, most amazing timeline here in my opinion.