Una diferente ‘Plus Ultra’ - the Avís-Trastámara Kings of All Spain and the Indies (Updated 11/7)

[Torbald]

Makes sense about the Spanish being more focused on developed territories and neglecting others and it opens the possibility for conflict between Spain and other states in a traditionally Iberian continent, although I would think that after the initial surprise of other states like France or the Nederlands making a state in South America the Spanish would become more interested in stopping further expansion or other states from taking a slice of the pie.

The Spanish are certainly going to try and guard their American claims fiercely, but with all things considered I don't think TTL's Spain has what it takes to dominate South America, Central, America, the Caribbean, and Mexico while also maintaining an empire in Africa and Asia. TTL's Iberian Union is going to be capable of so much more than OTL's individual Spanish and Portuguese empires, but I'm not so sure that it'll be greater than the sum of its parts in regards to the sheer territory it possesses.

During the 16th century, the Lesser Antilles, Guiana, Patagonia, (temporarily) La Plata, much of Brazil, and most of North America are all too marginal for Spain to justify expending resources on their colonization, so naturally these are places where European Interlopers are likely to thrive.

It will be interesting to see if French Equinoctial Brazil succeeds due to the Iberian Union united instead of competing against each other.

With a less focused Portuguese colonization, French interests in Brazil are likely to proceed with less interruption (albeit not unhindered). When French and Spanish colonial endeavors in Brazil find their focal points and a frontline forms between them, the indigenous polities existing on said frontline are likely to be able to play both sides against each other at first. Since the French are operating at a disadvantage in the Americas for a variety of reasons, they're likely to rely more heavily on native assistance, meaning they will likely supply their native allies with European arms and horses, while the Spanish act with greater impunity towards them due to their (initially) more secure position.

What all this means is that the OTL Tamoyo Confederation (stretching from Cabo Trip to Santos) is likely to be more like the Mapuche in terms of resistance to Spanish colonization in the redux. This will provide the French in Brazil with a convenient buffer against Spanish aggression for much of the 16th century. There are also likely to be French colonization attempts (successful or unsuccessful) in "Maragnan" (everything from the Potenji River to the Orinoco Delta).

I really like the idea of a Spanish/Iberian language being more incorporating of languages other than Castillan. It could make it easier to make all of the peninsula speak one language perhaps? Since it doesn’t draw as much on one group in particular? Would the Catalan language also be more included in this ttl version of Spanish? Also liking them drawing more on the Latin language. They could perhaps use that as a claim of them being true inheritors of Rome

I think that Catalan is unfortunately likely to be neglected when modifying Castilian to create a Spanish language (Hispaniol?), partly because of Catalan's perceived connection to the language of the hated French (since it is a Gallo-Romance language rather than an Ibero-Romance language like Castilian and Portuguese) and also due to the more impervious nature of Catalonia's institutions. Catalonia (and to an extent Aragon and Valencia) was also a region still on the decline in the 16th century, having never fully recovered from the devastating Black Plague, so its cultural input is deemed less important to the Iberian Union. The dwindling importance and wealth of Catalonia was also a cause for the neglect and abuse it experienced IOTL.

 

[Aceituno]

I think that Catalan is unfortunately likely to be neglected when modifying Castilian to create a Spanish language (Hispaniol?), partly because of Catalan's perceived connection to the language of the hated French (since it is a Gallo-Romance language rather than an Ibero-Romance language like Castilian and Portuguese) and also due to the more impervious nature of Catalonia's institutions. Catalonia (and to an extent Aragon and Valencia) was also a region still on the decline in the 16th century, having never fully recovered from the devastating Black Plague, so its cultural input is deemed less important to the Iberian Union. The dwindling importance and wealth of Catalonia was also a cause for the neglect and abuse it experienced IOTL.

Could this timeline catalan/valencian dialects be affected in any way?

 

[Torbald]

There's no need for now to do that, the main element of unity of Spain is its monarchy and the catholic faith. In the future, with the rise of liberal and nationalist ideas it will be already too late to change them to one unified language or it may too expensive for the state. Plus, it damages the cultural identity of the iberian peoples. There are more ways to create a national feeling of unity, like festivals, new traditions, or connecting old traditions with the idea of a Spain of which they belong or are part.

Language is communication, and it should go without saying that broken communication leads to a breakdown in communal cohesion. For better or for worse, differing languages provide a massive obstacle to nation-building. TTL's Spain can function without altering it's language composition, sure, but the dissolution of an Iberian Union will always remain a distinct possibility unless a more agreeable linguistic-demographic arrangement can be met.

OTL and TTL Spain are composite monarchies at the moment, and TTL's Spain might stay a federal state longer than the OTL one, but the necessity for unity among Spaniards is too great for the Spanish Crown to leave the political and cultural traditions of Iberia unmolested. Cultural and historical disunity among Iberians can and will be exploited by foreign competitors and domestic opportunists (which happened IOTL with Catalonia and Portugal). Resistance among the non-Castilian constituents of TTL Spain towards an Iberian Union is frankly unavoidable, especially among the Portuguese, who regularly exhibited a spirited anti-Castilian sentiment long before the OTL Iberian Union.

Since TTL's Spanish state's primary objective is maintaining an Iberian Union, wiping away legal divisions between the Spanish kingdoms and suppressing rebellious provinces through population transfers (which OTL Spain did repeatedly with the kingdom of Granada) are both inevitable. Easier collection of taxes and levying of conscripts also provides a more immediate motivation to the weakening or outright bulldozing of disparate political and cultural institutions.

Once the Spanish intelligentsia starts to turn more idealistic in the 18th century (assuming the general OTL cultural trends still happen), interest in a more efficient, centralized Spanish state is going to intensify, and consequently interest in a more united Spanish culture required to make such an idealized Spanish state work is going to intensify as well. Administrators, tax collectors, and enlightenment idealists tend not to be very sentimental when it comes to things such as preserving languages.

 

[Xenophonte]

I'm aware of earlier Portuguese visitation to Brazil, but Cabral's landing was still a definitive moment of discovery. Brazil is still going to be discovered by Iberian explorers, but that discovery is going to be delayed and the interest in the region that follows is going to be diminished compared to OTL.

Indeed, but i think that even if reduced, 'till would be interest, particularly due that TTL,any Portuguese ships may be able to use and benefice from the Canarias Islands as scale or as depart point for any possible travel to Brazil, instead, from the peninsular ports like Oporto or Lisboa.

The point being that Portugal's interest in Brazil before the stabilization of Pernambuco and São Paulo/Rio and the discovery of gold was minimal, and was heavily motivated by protecting Portuguese territorial integrity against Spanish competitors. The competition with Castile ITTL is greatly reduced by TTL's Iberian Union, and said union also brings a greater access for Portugal to Castile's American possessions, which are more developed and more immediately appealing than anything Brazil had to offer in the first half of the 16th century. Brazil is inevitably going to be neglected by the Portuguese, and by extension Spain.

Well, I would doubt that the Crown would ignore or would let to do let pass the chance if not to fund some feitoria/s there at very least to concession the exploitation of the Pau Brazil to some entrepreneurs...

Re: Language - I've always been interested in TTL's development of "Standard" Spanish. The Portuguese might be outnumbered by the Castilian, but this Iberian Union is still Portuguese-led, at least early on. This means that TTL's Spanish language might not be a carbon copy of OTL Castilian but might be a language that preserves elements like the voiceless postalveolar fricative for the letter X, the voiced labiodental fricative for the letter V, and the voice velar plosive for all uses of the letter G ("gigante" pronounced gee-gahnte rather than hee-gahnte). Some alphabetic compromises between Spanish and Portuguese might also be made, like the Castilian "ñ" and the Portuguese "nh" replaced by a more Latinesque "ni", e.g. "montaña/montanha" instead being "montania", or "España/Espanha" instead being "Espania/Hispania".

Indeed, but, imo, any discussion or approach to the subject should be a 'two pronged one' meaning that should include the Portuguese language phonologic and linguistic development/evolution as well as its literary expression. Also, and depending on TTL Castilian and Portuguese equivalents to the OTL Cortes de Tomar, the Portuguese Dynasty, would have to sign/accept or even enforce similar political compromises and 'linguistic guaranties' as well as establishing an effective and increasingly bilingual administrations/bureaucracies as well as ones referring to the heirs/crown princes education.
Which, imo, may create a situation where besides that the Avis-Trastámaras royals would be bilinguals as well would, as the time would pass, probably both of their courts and high political and military high echelons, would be a given they 'd be bilinguals. And, probably would fund or patronize both Castilians and Portuguese writers translations and would perhaps, that the first Portuguese Language Gramatica would be redacted and published way earlier than OTL (1536), and more closer in the time to the A. de Nebrija Castilian one.
About the evolution, besides that the above mentioned probable bilingualism of the Iberian ruling elites, which even if in the middle to long term would have consequences both in the way that would be spoken and pronounced the then prestiges variants of both Languages. However having said that, giving that and considering both the demographic disproportion between the 'Castilian-Aragonese' side and the Portuguese side of the Realm and that aside of the Court and perhaps the Navy, that most of the interactions between both language speakers would be in the Andalusia port cities, in the Canaries, and in the Garrison towns and settler grants in Morocco as well as in the Miguelinas (TTL Filipinas). I would guess that outside from the aforementioned areas,the OTL phonological evolution of the Castilians variants, would still be probable continue, even if it would start to receiving influence from the prestige language. Finally, even if the influence of the Latin was strong among the litterates, I tend to think that any posible linguistic compromise in TTL written version of either language, would if happen, start not in Court or their patronized writers/poets but rather among the official translators/bureaucrats seeking to translate/transcribe low range official documents and any póssible on the 'flight translations'/'short hands' used or ideated for deal with their daily workload, similarly to the way that the Medieval Monastic scribes/transcriptors, shaped the written language.
Edit, ITTL. would be possible that Gil Vicente (the Shakespeare like Portuguese playwright) would enjoy the Royal patronage and write for and from the Avis-Trastámaras Court. If well would be possible that ITTL L. de Camões works would be butterflied or that if not that he would write from Africa

 

[ramones1986]

Re: Language - I've always been interested in TTL's development of "Standard" Spanish. The Portuguese might be outnumbered by the Castilian, but this Iberian Union is still Portuguese-led, at least early on. This means that TTL's Spanish language might not be a carbon copy of OTL Castilian but might be a language that preserves elements like the voiceless postalveolar fricative for the letter X, the voiced labiodental fricative for the letter V, and the voice velar plosive for all uses of the letter G ("gigante" pronounced gee-gahnte rather than hee-gahnte).

I already suggested here of a merger of palatal lateral approximant (LL) with voiced velar plosive (G before I and E).

 

[Tertius711]

The Spanish are certainly going to try and guard their American claims fiercely, but with all things considered I don't think TTL's Spain has what it takes to dominate South America, Central, America, the Caribbean, and Mexico while also maintaining an empire in Africa and Asia. TTL's Iberian Union is going to be capable of so much more than OTL's individual Spanish and Portuguese empires, but I'm not so sure that it'll be greater than the sum of its parts in regards to the sheer territory it possesses.

During the 16th century, the Lesser Antilles, Guiana, Patagonia, (temporarily) La Plata, much of Brazil, and most of North America are all too marginal for Spain to justify expending resources on their colonization, so naturally these are places where European Interlopers are likely to thrive.



With a less focused Portuguese colonization, French interests in Brazil are likely to proceed with less interruption (albeit not unhindered). When French and Spanish colonial endeavors in Brazil find their focal points and a frontline forms between them, the indigenous polities existing on said frontline are likely to be able to play both sides against each other at first. Since the French are operating at a disadvantage in the Americas for a variety of reasons, they're likely to rely more heavily on native assistance, meaning they will likely supply their native allies with European arms and horses, while the Spanish act with greater impunity towards them due to their (initially) more secure position.

What all this means is that the OTL Tamoyo Confederation (stretching from Cabo Trip to Santos) is likely to be more like the Mapuche in terms of resistance to Spanish colonization in the redux. This will provide the French in Brazil with a convenient buffer against Spanish aggression for much of the 16th century. There are also likely to be French colonization attempts (successful or unsuccessful) in "Maragnan" (everything from the Potenji River to the Orinoco Delta).



I think that Catalan is unfortunately likely to be neglected when modifying Castilian to create a Spanish language (Hispaniol?), partly because of Catalan's perceived connection to the language of the hated French (since it is a Gallo-Romance language rather than an Ibero-Romance language like Castilian and Portuguese) and also due to the more impervious nature of Catalonia's institutions. Catalonia (and to an extent Aragon and Valencia) was also a region still on the decline in the 16th century, having never fully recovered from the devastating Black Plague, so its cultural input is deemed less important to the Iberian Union. The dwindling importance and wealth of Catalonia was also a cause for the neglect and abuse it experienced IOTL.

I think an expanded Equinoctial France covering Guiana and northern Brazil could be fascinating.

Patagonia though, not sure who’d colonize that other than Spain. Wouldn’t it be strategically important due to the Straits of Magellan and access to Peru? Also the sheer potential of having the entire Parana river basin and Rio De La Plata under one ruler (as I’m sure Southern Brazil is taken still at least by Spain) is cool to imagine.

I do agree that all of South America falling under Spanish rule is unlikely given the massive opportunity cost of Africa and Asia as well.

I imagine that while they may claim it, New Spain’s borders will end up at where Mexico’s are today IRL because even more so than OTL they don’t have the people to go across the western deserts and really populate those lands.

That being said if Africa and Asia are such an opportunity I want to see it fully explored. I remember we discussed here on this thread the potential of Spanish South Africa becoming the Brazil analogue in terms of its size and intermingling of local and European populations? That would be cool. An expanded Philippines that stretches over most if not all of Nusantara due to the massive head start Spain has there would also be very cool. Maybe they’d even get Pre-Chinese Austronesian Taiwan to add to the list of colonies.

 

[NekoTamo2]

Hrm, not sure I like the idea of a unified Spain being just as, or even less, successful than OTL. At least in size. Emergent things tend to be greater than the sum of their parts. This is especially true if you mash the Spanish and Portuguese empires together, since if nothing else they can free up time and energy by no longer needing to compete and war between themselves, covering each other's blind spots.

That said it doesn't have to be bigger in the same places as the originals were. They could colonize regions they never did historically instead, or at least didn't to any meaningful extent. That is if you are looking for fresh angles and not just the same lands they held OTL except bigger, though that would probably be the most realistic.

I personally would like to see them leave a greater imprint in the southern US region. Have a better hold on the West Indies than originally. Additionally I liked the African developments of the timeline. Presumably they will have better luck than OTL in the far east and the Indian Ocean region too.

Anyway if you are set on rebooting Torbald I very much look forward to seeing how you do it.

 

[Avian2023]

It's also very interesting that as Spain continues to develop and integrate its army and navy they would be dominated by different parts of the union with the navy heavily Portuguese in tradition and proportion and the army dominated by Castile with its warlike traditions and larger population

 

[TimTurner]

It's also very interesting that as Spain continues to develop and integrate its army and navy they would be dominated by different parts of the union with the navy heavily Portuguese in tradition and proportion and the army dominated by Castile with its warlike traditions and larger population

Yeah that would be an interesting thing to see.

 

[anyone]

@Torbald I was wondering what your plans were TL wise cause I remember seeing a post about it but couldn't find it

 

[Torbald]

@Torbald I was wondering what your plans were TL wise cause I remember seeing a post about it but couldn't find it

Did you mean the planned changes, or the planned trajectory of the TL?

 

[anyone]

The planned trajectory/what posting may look like in the future depending on if you can.

 

[Aceituno]

Is there any possibility for the almogavars to come back with a new role in the army?

 

[Avian2023]

Is there any possibility for the almogavars to come back with a new role in the army?

In what capacity? I don't think they'd serve the Spanish

 

[Aceituno]

In what capacity? I don't think they'd serve the Spanish

They were recruited in all the iberian kingdoms during the reconquista and were mostly important in Aragón... Still they would need another function for the early modern age

 

[Avian2023]

They were recruited in all the iberian kingdoms during the reconquista and were mostly important in Aragón... Still they would need another function for the early modern age

Yeah, you're right, they were very good at their style of war during the reconnaissance and in their campaigns in Anatolia against the Turks, but they seem to have lost a lot of steam after the medieval period. An evolution of them could be cool, though, as they're an interesting group. I always thought their "Desperta Ferro" was a cool battle cry.

 

[PedroE]

In what capacity? I don't think they'd serve the Spanish

Honest question, why wouldn't they serve spain?

I'd guess @Aceituno is referring to the Aragonese almogavars from the 12 century upwards of the Reconquista, not the early muslim bandit parties almogavars from the Umayyad conquests of the penninsula. And, from my vague memories of reading about them after playing EUIV, those were simply light infantry made up from christian sheppards and old byzantine mercenaries used to raiding and fighting off raids from their neighboring muslims.

So, if in the re-write Spain also conquers moroccan land (which I hope it does), there likely would be almogavar prospects in a generation or two of christian immigrant shepard and small farmers living besides the native muslims.

The only issue is that they aren't particularly great and not easily trainable troops, since they aren't trainable at all as much as they're recruited from a life of living off the land while fighting muslims lifestyle. But the quality of living off the land, knowing their surroundings and being quick footed would likely make them relevant enough in pacifying actions on northern african occupied territory.

 

[Avian2023]

Honest question, why wouldn't they serve spain?

I'd guess @Aceituno is referring to the Aragonese almogavars from the 12 century upwards of the Reconquista, not the early muslim bandit parties almogavars from the Umayyad conquests of the penninsula. And, from my vague memories of reading about them after playing EUIV, those were simply light infantry made up from christian sheppards and old byzantine mercenaries used to raiding and fighting off raids from their neighboring muslims.

So, if in the re-write Spain also conquers moroccan land (which I hope it does), there likely would be almogavar prospects in a generation or two of christian immigrant shepard and small farmers living besides the native muslims.

The only issue is that they aren't particularly great and not easily trainable troops, since they aren't trainable at all as much as they're recruited from a life of living off the land while fighting muslims lifestyle. But the quality of living off the land, knowing their surroundings and being quick footed would likely make them relevant enough in pacifying actions on northern african occupied territory.

Yeah, you're right they slipped from my mind I was thinking of the Muslim group

 

[PedroE]

Yeah, you're right, they were very good at their style of war during the reconnaissance and in their campaigns in Anatolia against the Turks, but they seem to have lost a lot of steam after the medieval period. An evolution of them could be cool, though, as they're an interesting group. I always thought their "Desperta Ferro" was a cool battle cry.

Yeah, you're right they slipped from my mind I was thinking of the Muslim group

Great timing, quoted your comment only for your new reply to show up just as I posted hahaha.

I can't really see a big 'evolution' of the reconquista almogavars, since they weren't a particularly organized military force, as much as an organization of a natural occurring people (fighting christian shepherds). Though organizing some border forts and overall better infrastructure and communications would likely make it easier for said shepherds to coalesce, I can't see much more Spain could do to improve them.

But I would hope they adopt some of their foraging skills and iconography in the eventually more professional Spanish army. And, as spanish almovagar continue to be born in the moroccan hinterlands, we could also see some of said foraging warriors gain some success as conquistadores.

 

[Xenophonte]

Re the Almogavars, if wanted/wished to look for Spaniards or Iberians fighting or that were organized, as they used to did, then, IMO, both the Spanish conquistadores hosts /bands or 'free companies' or even in the Portugueses Brazilians Bandeirantes. But, also, at least, IMO, might be considered that their traditional way to fight, even if adapted and integrated in the Monarchy profesional armies, survived, in the widespread use of the 'Encamisados/ Camisados' 'spec-forces' like raids. Ones that often were night raids, to wreak havoc/retaliate, in their enemies/ besiegers bases/camps like in Monz against the Prince of Orange or like in the siege of Castelnuovo last stand defense.