TL-191 Uniform, weapons and equipment of the Secondary Combatants.

Discussion in 'Alternate History Books and Media' started by pattontank12, Jan 22, 2019.

  1. Alterwright "You were never even a player."

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    Yes, as long as they can fire the same round, any weapon would be suitable for the Quebecois Army I believe. Guess it all just comes to down preference in these things. How easy would it be to re-chamber the .30-06 for these guns though?

    Ah, yes, the Browning .30 and Browning .50 would probably make its way into Quebec as well. Again, for me, that's because of who Quebec's closest trading partner would be.
     
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  2. Alterwright "You were never even a player."

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    Imperial Russian Army - 1917-1926, 1941

    So I have a strong opinion that the Russian Imperial Army in TL-191 would look and dress very similarly to the White Russian Tsarist forces from the Russian Civil War in our timeline. From 1926 to 1941 I believe through a bit of modernization that the the typical Russian soldier would not look that much different than what we see in our timeline terms of the basic uniform. The obvious and clearly visible change however is that there would be no reference to the Soviet Union or communism present in the uniform, which would be completely replaced by Tsarist items.

    Here are some examples of where I think the Russian uniform can go, based on what he got in the Russian Civil War.

    As a side note - I absolutely believe that the Russians would develop very different yet very capable weapons, equipment, and tanks in TL-191.

    kornilov 5.jpg
    800px_COLOURBOX12058100.jpg

    ^^^ --- Kornilov Regiment Uniforms.

    Drozdovsky 6.jpg
    Drozdovsky 9.jpg

    ^^^ --- Drozdovsky Regiment Uniforms

    civil-war-clipart-warfare-6.jpg
    Misc 4.jpg
    Misc 1.jpg
    ww1___russian_women__battailon_by_andreasilva60-dbq85hy.jpg

    ^^^ --- Other uniform styles, including headgear
     
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  3. Alterwright "You were never even a player."

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    Now like I said before, I do believe the Russian Imperial Army would have different weapons, equipment and tanks compared to our timeline. I know some of you out there must be interested in that!

    So the inevitable questions must come - would the T-34 tank be in TL-191? If not, what could take its place? How? Would the PPsh-41 and other weapons show up here? Why or why not? Do any of them have a chance of showing up? What would show up to take their places?
     
  4. cortz#9 Obrltnt of Kampfgruppe Seelöw

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    Its hard to say what weapons and tech would've been developed and which would've been butterflied. Sloped armour was a known concept before the T-34 but most nations didn't think it would make much difference to be worth the bother and make the tank too heavy, would Imperial Russia think it was worth the effort? Would they still purchase the Christie suspension? Would Christie still invent his suspension?

    We can't really know for sure. I think it's possible that Imperial Russia still uses sloped armour but may not be the first nation to do so (Japan IOTL made a small light tank with some sloped armour before the T-34) and may or may not purchase the license to build the Christie suspension.

    Just for fun I'm going to make an alternate T-34, it will have some of the OTL T-34's features but not all.
     
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  5. cortz#9 Obrltnt of Kampfgruppe Seelöw

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    Alternate Imp.Russian Medium tank circa 1941. The T-30.

    =T-30.png
    Christie suspension and some angled armour on the turret (quite common on a lot of pre-WWII tanks IOTL), 6 cylinder petrol engine and armed with a 70mm cannon.
     
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  6. cortz#9 Obrltnt of Kampfgruppe Seelöw

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    I was thinking about which nation would be the first to sloped armour on their tanks and decided it would be Germany and even though Germany is not a secondary power, I thought you guys might be curious about this too, so here's TL-191's first sloped armour barrel.

    VK_Pz.Kfw. VII.jpg
    Pz-VII entered service in 1938.
     
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  7. Alterwright "You were never even a player."

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    Yes this is definitely true. A lot of factors in the T-34s development cycle pushed it from the blueprints and onto the battlefield itself. The border clashes with the Japanese and the Winter War with Finland in which the T-26s and BTs were involved demonstrated to the Soviets the shortcomings of their mainline tanks, which were essentially either copies of foreign designs or bought from foreign designers like Walter Christie. By that point the Soviet designers in charge of making the T-34 manage to convoke their higher ups that a new tanks design was sorely needed and the examples of the Fall of France demonstrated the need. In short the Soviets needed a better tank and many factors pushed the T-34 into the forefront at a time where it was needed most.

    It also can't be ignored that the T-34 is itself one of the most recognizable symbols of the Soviet Army. It is a Soviet design through and through to me.

    I believe that in TL-191, with Russia still ruled by the Tsar, who was itching for a fight and willing to go on the offensive first, a Tsarist equivalent to the T-34 would exist, although not the exact same tank - different specs, different design, but still a rather worthy medium tank with decent armor and a decent gun.
     
  8. Alterwright "You were never even a player."

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    There we go! Its a good first attempt and a good look into what an alternate "T-34" equivalent in TL-191 would look like. Looks like its has the Christie suspension and a turret from the BT series, albeit with a far bigger gun. It looks like something the Russians could produce very fast!

    You think this could compete with what the Germans had in TL-191?
     
  9. Alterwright "You were never even a player."

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    Ah, the first truly German tank we see from you for TL-191! Looks like the turret of an early Pz. IV and given sloped armor! Could actually be a much beefier tank than what the Russians had, a twist of fate in a way.

    I'm wonder if the Pz VII here is the equivalent to the Russian T-30 you made. What is the gun's specs?
     
  10. cortz#9 Obrltnt of Kampfgruppe Seelöw

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    I would say the T-30 isn't as powerful or well armoured as the T-34 but its not a bad tank and would fair well against most contemporary barrels and in a lot of cases, out-class them.

    The Pz-VII uses a lot of sections from experimental German designs, most of which never went into production IOTL. Its better in almost every respect than the barrels of of other nations in the TL-191 universe.
    The Pz-VII is the continuation of Panzer development in Germany since the 1920's starting with the Pz-IV and has been refined and improved over the years. It is well armoured and has very reliable engine, the gun is a short barreled 75mm gun, the same gun used on the StuG-III and Pz-IV IOTL in 1939 but the turret is large enough to take a larger gun when a more powerful weapon is desired.

    I would say the Pz-VII is slightly better than the early versions of the T-34 and Sherman (except for the gun) but this version of the Pz-VII is the Mk.I and has a good bit of further development to go.
     
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  11. Alterwright "You were never even a player."

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    I see then. So in regards to to the TL-191 German tank, it would be more like saying its the "Pz. VII Ausf. A" or "Panzer 7 Model A" - to use the German way of saying variations I guess lol. It would have a short barrel 75mm gun off the bat, a reliable engine and good armor. Overall a decent tank. I imagine like the Panzer IV in our timeline that this model would not be in great numbers at the start of the war, but that could be different.

    I'm also guessing the T-30 would have room for improvement as the war progressed. Perhaps we could see another "tank arms race" between the Germans and Russians - both of whom still have their old world style imperial governments. A tsar still in Russia and a kaiser still in Germany.
     
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  12. Alterwright "You were never even a player."

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    Once again, I think it would be fairly easy to envision what an Imperial Russian Army would look like in GWII in TL-191. Overall, the uniform of the Russian private doesn't seem to have changed much in our timeline, but granted there were changes made. I newer updated tunic, new webbing, new weapons and gear, but what I mean is that overall the "look" of the standard Russian soldiers between WWI and WWII still looks fairly the same.

    In this timeline though I imagine the paraphernalia of Imperial Russia would replace the Soviet items. So for example the iconic pilotka from WWII would sport the Imperial Russian orange and black cockade instead of the Soviet red star.

    71FDEgPNrDL._UX679_.jpg
    s-l300.jpg
     
  13. pattontank12 Better Dead than Red!

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    I'm wondering if Australia had ended up under the leadership of the New Guard and Centre Party during the interwar years, being closely tied to the British home Islands silver shirts?
     
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  14. Alterwright "You were never even a player."

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    Sorry, who are they? What's the New Guard?
     
  15. pattontank12 Better Dead than Red!

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    I left links to there descriptions...

    Anyway the New Guard were an militant Australian monarchist, anti-communist and later fascist movement that were later succeeded by the fascist Centrist Party.
     
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  16. Alterwright "You were never even a player."

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    Yeah, probably. If Great Britain experienced a wave of revaunchism that saw the rise of fascists in its government, then other parts of the Empire, namely Australia, might follow suit as well.
     
  17. Alterwright "You were never even a player."

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    Fair enough! As long as it can be done, I see no problem with this.

    By the way, do you have an idea for tanks or vehicles for the Quebecois Army? What about any uniform ideas for the Imperial Russian Army? I posted something like that on here.
     
  18. Undeadmuffin Muffin want to liiiive !

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    @Alterwright
    For the Quebec tanks, I feel that most of them would be either US based (or even bought) or a US chassis with a Quebecois turret. The only factory with tank-capacity was the CPR Angus shop in Montreal, it originaly was used to build and repair trains and their car. Especially since Quebec is never in war or war-production, their would be no incentive to convert the Angus shop into a tank factory like OTL and making trains, either for local use or to sell abroad would be more lucrative.
    But for vehicule, in the 30's, J-A Bombardier had started working on its snowmobile, basically a car with tracks and skis, maybe the government would help his company and buy a stock for military purposes ? Either a non-armored for logistic and transport or a armored one for combat.
    The civil ones looked like this: bomb.jpg

    As for the Russian uniform, the white Drozdovsky uniform could be parade uniform but I feel that Kornilov's ones are more ''combat friendly'' and the fact that it was used by the cosack probably make them more ''official'' but I know little about Russian military.
     
    Last edited: Feb 3, 2019
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  19. pattontank12 Better Dead than Red!

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    wwxi_weapons_tanks_by_bistrod-d6kbz1q.jpg
    This kinda feels in line with the type of equipment that Mexico and possibly even the Confederacy would use.
     
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  20. cortz#9 Obrltnt of Kampfgruppe Seelöw

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    I pictured Mexico using much lighter tanks but I could definitely see the CSA using those two in the inter war years.
    Cool guns.
     
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