TL-191 Uniform, weapons and equipment of the Secondary Combatants.

[pattontank12]

Ahaaah, well, its funny you mention that, because the Irish Defense Force around this time in our timeline... well they fit that description pretty well already!

They absolutely took queues from their neighbor and I even think you or another person showed me a picture or two about the Irish helmets around this time looking eerily similar to WWI German helmets.

OTL Irish Defense Force Uniforms - 1930s-1940s:

View attachment 435067

^^^ --- Irish Defense Force uniforms, 1930s-1940s.

View attachment 435068

^^^ --- 1930s, Artillery, Cavalry, Transportation Corps.

View attachment 435069

^^^ --- On the march, with Lee-Enfield rifles, highly likely left over from the British.

View attachment 435070

^^^ --- At attention, helmets and rifles on display.

View attachment 435071

^^^ --- Vickers MG crew posing for the camera, the assistant gunner dabbing as his partner looks through the gun sights P)

While its not entirely similar to the Polish uniform, the points you made about the Irish uniforms taking queues from Britain, Germany, and in TL-191's case the United States, the actual Irish uniforms already take striking similar queues from the relevant neighbors you mentioned. Can there be differences? Absolutely. I'm just saying its a funny coincidence.

If I didn't know better I'd swear those were uniforms straight from Central Europe. There's just so much German influence in the design.

Heh, okay, so adding the discussion on the Quebecois Army in TL-191, this clothing company in Canada called "Moose Knuckle" or something had a few advertising photos to show off the new line of winter clothing they have... and I have to say they actually got just the right shade of blue for the color of what I think the Quebecois Army would be wearing. Also, I think they nailed it with an idea for a look - that being a uniform with a certain shade of blue, plus berets. In fact, I think the Quebecois would wear berets with their uniform.

And also... women in the armed forces? Doing what specifically TL-191, given that its probably still the same mentality as 1930s-1940s Canada, I don't know but still, these ladies make a convincing argument, eh?

View attachment 435090
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I do agree that the Quebecois Army would have a mix sources for their equipment and uniform, definitely from the United States and probably from the British, but definitely would try to put a cultural twist to it all, naturally gravitating to the French style stuff. How French would that be? I don't know, but probably just enough not to worry United States... hopefully.

The women could be a part of a Woman's Auxiliary Corps similar to what the British did in OTL. Mainly serving as a home guard to free up more manpower for the war and acting in a non combat role.

 

[pattontank12]

Kinda want to say this would be the type of uniform Australia/New Zealand would have. Though I don't it's entirely plausible...

 

[cortz#9]

View attachment 435192
Kinda want to say this would be the type of uniform Australia/New Zealand would have. Though I don't it's entirely plausible...

That helmet looks almost Star wars-ish

 

[pattontank12]

That helmet looks almost Star wars-ish

I just realized that...

Though admittedly it does look a lot more practical than the traditional British "tin hat" which could be explained that after loosing the first great war the British military and her Dominion's decided to develop some practical helmets for her soldiers.

 

[cortz#9]

I just realized that...

Though admittedly it does look a lot more practical than the traditional British "tin hat" which could be explained that after loosing the first great war the British military and her Dominion's decided to develop some practical helmets for her soldiers.

Its definitely better than the old WWI tin hat.

 

[pattontank12]

Its definitely better than the old WWI tin hat.

Plus it's rather distinctive from any OTL helmet, so that's a bonus.

So what kind of equipment and vehicles would TL-191 Australia and New Zealand have?

 

[Pangur]

Plus it's rather distinctive from any OTL helmet, so that's a bonus.

So what kind of equipment and vehicles would TL-191 Australia and New Zealand have?

British most likely however OTL the Aussies had for example the Owen

 

[cortz#9]

Plus it's rather distinctive from any OTL helmet, so that's a bonus.

So what kind of equipment and vehicles would TL-191 Australia and New Zealand have?

My first thought was second tier British gear but Japan might be seen as more of a threat here with out the US as an ally. They might combine resources for a home built small-ish medium tank and multi purpose fighter-bomber and I could see them making their own subguns and some other small arms and of license built British weapons and some CSA weapons.

I could see the Aussies and Kiwis wanting the license to the CS Barrel Buster and maybe even a licence for the Mexican mondragan and Vz-37. Mexico would be happy to get the business.

 

[pattontank12]

My first thought was second tier British gear but Japan might be seen as more of a threat here with out the US as an ally. They might combine resources for a home built small-ish medium tank and multi purpose fighter-bomber and I could see them making their own subguns and some other small arms and of license built British weapons and some CSA weapons.

I could see the Aussies and Kiwis wanting the license to the CS Barrel Buster and maybe even a licence for the Mexican mondragan and Vz-37. Mexico would be happy to get the business.

I could honestly see Australia developing something similar to the OTL sentinel tank with the aid of experienced British engineers.

Only more heavily up gunned. Actually I could see the British working heavily with its remaining Dominions such as South Africa and Australia on developing Barrels, to circumvent an arms restrictions that might have been imposed on them by the Central Powers.

I could definitely see them having adopted some designs from the other Entente countries.

 

[Undeadmuffin]

My take on Quebec uniform (I stole the base models from Beedok)

-Before independance it would be (obviously) British uniform
-After independance, I imagined that Quebec would keep the british uniform simply because their is a lot of it laying around but dyed it both to avoid confusion and to give it a more ''national'' look, they chose blue for its connexion to France but a deeper ''Prussian'' blue because it needed to be dark enough to cover the khaki. They would adopt the abundant US stahlhelm as helmet both because it was a good and cheaply available helmet and because the US was expected to be their ally.
-During the interwar, the rise in nationalism and desire to create their own identity and not be seen as a ''US puppet'' forced a change in the uniform. Thanks to the french military selling uniform kits for pennies, Quebec was able to re-stock a new uniform on the cheap and closer to the ''french root'' clamored by the nationalists but US concerns about possible confusion in case of future conflict led the military to modify it, so they simply dyed the french uniform the same color as the precedent one. The US stahlhelm was kept both for convenience and because test still presented it as superior in protection to the french Adrien helmet.
*-Post war, the uniform was changed once again, to better embrace modernity and lessons learned during the ''pacification'' campaign in Canada. The good ol' Stahlhelm was changed for a national design (OTL swiss helmet), like the uniform. Now a staple of the Quebec uniform, the ''Quebec blue'' was kept only in a ceremonial role since most of the military, who remembered the brutal backcountry fights in Canada, wanted a more ''camouflage friendly'' green battledress.

 

[pattontank12]

My take on Quebec uniform (I stole the base models from Beedok)
View attachment 435491
-Before independance it would be (obviously) British uniform
-After independance, I imagined that Quebec would keep the british uniform simply because their is a lot of it laying around but dyed it both to avoid confusion and to give it a more ''national'' look, they chose blue for its connexion to France but a deeper ''Prussian'' blue because it needed to be dark enough to cover the khaki. They would adopt the abundant US stahlhelm as helmet both because it was a good and cheaply available helmet and because the US was expected to be their ally.
-During the interwar, the rise in nationalism and desire to create their own identity and not be seen as a ''US puppet'' forced a change in the uniform. Thanks to the french military selling uniform kits for pennies, Quebec was able to re-stock a new uniform on the cheap and closer to the ''french root'' clamored by the nationalists but US concerns about possible confusion in case of future conflict led the military to modify it, so they simply dyed the french uniform the same color as the precedent one. The US stahlhelm was kept both for convenience and because test still presented it as superior in protection to the french Adrien helmet.
-Post war, the uniform was changed once again, to better embrace modernity and lessons learned during the ''pacification'' campaign in Canada. The good ol' Stahlhelm was changed for a national design (OTL swiss helmet), like the uniform. Now a staple of the Quebec uniform, the ''Quebec blue'' was kept despite many wanting a more camouflage friendly green.

Nicely done. Though I think they'd have dropped the blue combat uniform during the post war 50's. With Quebec regulating the blue uniforms to a ceremonial role.

 

[Undeadmuffin]

Nicely done. Though I think they'd have dropped the blue combat uniform during the post war 50's. With Quebec regulating the blue uniforms to a cerebral role.

I think you mean ''ceremonial'' ?

 

[pattontank12]

I think you mean ''ceremonial'' ?

Sorry phones autocorrect.

 

[Undeadmuffin]

Sorry phones autocorrect.

Thanks for the feed back, I modified my post

 

[Alterwright]

My take on Quebec uniform

-Before independance it would be (obviously) British uniform

-After independance, I imagined that Quebec would keep the british uniform simply because their is a lot of it laying around but dyed it both to avoid confusion and to give it a more ''national'' look, they chose blue for its connexion to France but a deeper ''Prussian'' blue because it needed to be dark enough to cover the khaki. They would adopt the abundant US stahlhelm as helmet both because it was a good and cheaply available helmet and because the US was expected to be their ally.

-During the interwar, the rise in nationalism and desire to create their own identity and not be seen as a ''US puppet'' forced a change in the uniform. Thanks to the french military selling uniform kits for pennies, Quebec was able to re-stock a new uniform on the cheap and closer to the ''french root'' clamored by the nationalists but US concerns about possible confusion in case of future conflict led the military to modify it, so they simply dyed the french uniform the same color as the precedent one. The US stahlhelm was kept both for convenience and because test still presented it as superior in protection to the french Adrien helmet.

*-Post war, the uniform was changed once again, to better embrace modernity and lessons learned during the ''pacification'' campaign in Canada. The good ol' Stahlhelm was changed for a national design (OTL swiss helmet), like the uniform. Now a staple of the Quebec uniform, the ''Quebec blue'' was kept only in a ceremonial role since most of the military, who remembered the brutal backcountry fights in Canada, wanted a more ''camouflage friendly'' green battledress.

Yes! Absolutely love this explanation here! Can this be canon? I want it to be.

I love the reasoning you had behind how they would change their uniform over time and how different sources would affect their overall look. Even the reason for using the dye to color the uniforms is great as well, using what's already there and essentially giving it a new paint job to, primarily, tell the armies apart so no friendly fire incidents can happen. I thought that was a nice touch.

Even the desire to purchase more French surplus seems reasonable, due to the whole national identity thing. Addressing the US's concern over such purchases was good I feel, since the French and US even in the Inter-War period would not be on good speaking terms.

Great stuff! If you can, can you elaborate on what personal equipment the Quebecois would buy off the French to make their uniforms? Webbing, coats, boots, etc.?

 

[Alterwright]

I still feel like the Quebecois would adopt a beret as part of their uniform somewhere. I think it would be a distinguishing factor to set them apart from the US Army besides them using blue-dyed clothing.

^^^ --- This is a Boy Scouts beret from Quebec I believe, but the style could be unique for the army. Its even got an appropriate shade of blue.

 

[Allochronian]

After reading a bit on army uniforms during WWII, here is how I view each perspective country's uniform, weapons, and equipment:

• For Imperial Mexico, they more or less have the same uniform as they were in OTL, albeit with more of a British, French and Confederate influence. Despite having some outmoded equipment, the Mexican soldiers are noted for their fierce fighting spirit on the battlefield, even if they have limited experience against the United States. I see them being more of an interventionist nation in Central America and having a good relationship with the Confederacy while its relationship with the United States is best described as being respectful, but awkward. The Fusil Mondragón, Mendoza C-1934, Mendoza RM2, Saint-Chamond-Mondragón would be made and well-known in Mexico.

• In Quebec, I concur with Undeadmuffin's version of Quebec's uniform. However, I do think that they would adopt the Adrian helmet at first but later switch to a different type of helmet due to the former gaining a negative connotation, along with the M1 Helmet, which becomes the "Confederate Helmet in TL-191. It's possible that the Quebecois helmet develops some variant of the Stahlhelm or their own design.

Sources:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Combat_helmet
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adrian_helmet
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Weapons_of_Mexico
http://brendonshelmets.weebly.com/

 

[Undeadmuffin]

After reading a bit on army uniforms during WWII, here is how I view each perspective country's uniform, weapons, and equipment:

*snip*

• In Quebec, I concur with Undeadmuffin's version of Quebec's uniform. However, I do think that they would adopt the Adrian helmet at first but later switch to a different type of helmet due to the former gaining a negative connotation, along with the M1 Helmet, which becomes the "Confederate Helmet in TL-191. It's possible that the Quebecois helmet develops some variant of the Stahlhelm or their own design.

Sources:
*snip*

Thanks !
-They wanted the Adrian helmet but when they tested a sample of them, they were slightly less effective than the US stahlhelm they already had. So when US military official voiced their concern, it was finnaly decided to abandon Adrian helmet and keep their stahlhelm.
-They did adopt a national variant of the stahlhelm post-war, it looked like the OTL WW2 swiss helmet.

EDIT: @Alterwright Thanks for your comment ! As for your last question, they would adopt the coat, vest, pants and webbing. For the boot, I think it would be local design, especially for winter boots. The backpack would be a mix of US and local design.

 

[pattontank12]

I do wonder if Quebec would do they're own spin on the classic French Kepi.

 

[Alterwright]

Thanks !
-They wanted the Adrian helmet but when they tested a sample of them, they were slightly less effective than the US stahlhelm they already had. So when US military official voiced their concern, it was finnaly decided to abandon Adrian helmet and keep their stahlhelm.
-They did adopt a national variant of the stahlhelm post-war, it looked like the OTL WW2 swiss helmet.

EDIT: @Alterwright Thanks for your comment ! As for your last question, they would adopt the coat, vest, pants and webbing. For the boot, I think it would be local design, especially for winter boots. The backpack would be a mix of US and local design.

Indeed! I have an idea for the Quebecois uniforms then. I actually found some suitable reference images that fit this exact description you posted here perfectly. As far as the shade of blue goes it fits just right and the uniform itself is absolutely French based.

For the American/German influence factor - the Stahlhelm is a must, possibly dyed a suitable metallic shade of blue or dark-bluish gray. One of the most critical factors I think that would seep into Quebecois gear and equipment would be the rifle itself - I believe the Quebecois Army would adopt the Springfield 1903 as its standard rifle, with the Lee-Enfields left over from British rule put into surplus or given to auxiliary units.

Now the reason I say the Springfield 1903 would likely be adopted by Quebec is economics and trade relations with the US - as much as the Quebecois government would like not to be seen as a puppet of the United States, it would still be one of its closest, if not the closest, trading partner the country has. American businesses and even cars are already in Quebec by 1920s and 1930s I believe and while its likely Quebec may develop their own rifle, I don't believe it would be ready by the Second Great War. The Springfield 1903 would be readily available and in sufficient quantities to outfit the Quebecois soldiers on a shorter notice. While one could make the argument that the German K98 or French Berthier or Lebel may be used by Quebec as part of surplus sales - to me that would be a logistical strain on Quebec in times of war especially since ammunition for these guns may be in short supply in North America.

Again that's just my reasoning for it, I could be wrong, but the way I see it Quebec's efforts to show off its French roots may be limited in certain areas simply due to economic,political, or even just practical factors. The rifle would be one.

I'll show my references soon.