TL-191 Uniform, weapons and equipment of the Secondary Combatants.

Discussion in 'Alternate History Books and Media' started by pattontank12, Jan 22, 2019.

  1. Alterwright "You were never even a player."

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    Another communist revolution in Russia you mean? Well the chances of it happening for a second time are certainly possible I think, given that Imperial Russia has, yet again, lost another major war - discontent within the empire would run high and the communists are still roaming around, but as small insurgent groups. I'm not sure if it would succeed or fail though really. The communists were crushed pretty hard during TL-191's Russian Civil War, with many of the revolution's recognizable leaders being killed, including Stalin and Molotov - well that might be an exaggeration, their fates are not known, but if they were around I believe would have heard more from them.

    Localized uprisings might be possible, but the memory of the first civil war would still be on the minds of every communist still in Russia. They'd have to have better organization and competent leadership to try and dislodge the Romanovs again and this time the regime would clamp down harder than before. I'm not saying its not possible, I'm just emphasizing that the communists would be fighting more of an up-hill battle, even with the Imperial regime battered.
     
  2. Alterwright "You were never even a player."

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    I can only imagine what a logistical nightmare it would be for the Austro-Hungarians to build and maintain these different designs, considering the fact that these tanks would be produced with the assumption that they would be used in their respective armies. I'd have to look again, but I could be wrong on that point.

    I say that though because I believe the Austro-Hungarian Army was really made up of three different armies --- The "Joint Army" or "Joint Imperial and Royal Army" or "Common Army", the "Imperial Austrian Army", and the "Royal Hungarian Army". I mean, that's a lot to manage. And just figuring out who would get what tanks and in what numbers would be a headache.
     
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  3. pattontank12 Better Dead than Red!

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    Of course on the other hand St. Petersburg was nuked here, taking lord knows how many of the Romanov's with it. So there could be trouble finding a respectable heir.
     
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  4. Alterwright "You were never even a player."

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    Yes. As I mentioned the regime is battered, to put it lightly. But Mihkail II is still in power. Although the bomb dropped on St. Petersburg was meant to take him out, he survived. The head was not decapitated despite the limbs being cut. Heirs can always be found, but it would take time. If the communists wanted to strike now would be the time - but they would have to do it right.
     
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  5. KACKO Well-Known Member

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    Why? LP-38 (OTL LT-38), Barreljager-41 as well as SPG are on same chassis. So no biggy there. Even when Barreljagger-42 comes, it is still same chassis. So logistic is relatively easy. As to vehicle allocations. Well elite formations are getting first and best. Later as it goes. ;) However due to large factory for armored vehicles built by Skoda and CKD in Slovak towns Turciansky Sv. Martin and Detva (one of largest in A-H,) they were more most of the time more then satisfactory supplied. ;)
    [​IMG]

    Here Barreljager-42 from one of Czech cavalry regiments. ;)

    Their earlier APCs
    [​IMG]


    And later war APCs were on same chassis. Same goes for self propelled AA
    [​IMG]

    Only their heavy vehicles were of different design. Some domestic early war but later licence built German. ;)
     
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  6. burtledog Well-Known Member

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    Kinda' looks like the FN 1949 that Venezuela teamed up with an FAL 20 round mag.
     
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  7. Alterwright "You were never even a player."

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    Nicely done! You know, if the US was exporting this tank to the Quebecois, perhaps they can rename it the "Montcalm" or some other famous Quebecois individual.

    Should put the M2 Adams (or Mk. 2 Adams?) in the Union thread too!
     
  8. Alterwright "You were never even a player."

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    tumblr_pm8dgzEqj41w636mro1_540.jpg

    ^^^ --- Yeah... I don't even know what the heck it is, but its a homemade gun used by Estonians in 1940 fighting the Soviet occupation just before Barbarossa apparently. Consider it a design that can be used by any resistance group in TL-191. In fact we'd probably see quite a few homemade weapons used by guerrilla groups in TL-191.
     
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  9. Historyman 14 Well-Known Member

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    I also doubt a second Communist Revolution be anymore successful. As said, most would be leaders of the Communists and Socialists would be dead, or in exile, and I doubt they be able to come back to Russia anytime soon. The Imperial Government would have taken the steps to clamped down on them following the end of the Civil War.

    At the same time, I doubt Berlin and Vienna would even enjoy the idea of a Communist state on their borders and doing want they can to support the Imperial Government to keep that from taking place.

    If the Reds do strike and rise up, I doubt they get very far as the Secret Police and the Imperial Army crushing them hard.
     
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  10. Alterwright "You were never even a player."

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    @Historyman 14 @pattontank12 --- Something completely different.

    Papal Guards --- The uniformed soldiers of the Pope: 1941-1944

    palant10.jpg

    ^^^ --- Palatine Guardsman, circa 1944. Formed in 1850 as an infantry unit tasked with watch-keeping within Rome, the Palatine Guard was given the task of protecting the Vatican and other Vatican properties within Rome. During the 1940s they wore a simple modern uniform consisting of gray overalls, red beret, red insignia, and a belt with bayonet and ammo pouches. They were armed with a variety of weapons. This soldier is armed with a Carcano Modello 1891.

    5ec7f0f08b514c8064e4d152570c7a3c.jpg
    vaticanpipers.jpg
    d0a62ba61fe8c0ca5feb2b6454c7281a.jpg
    Swiss_Guardsman_in_regular_duty_uniform.jpg

    ^^^ --- Papal Swiss Guards, in "regular duty" uniform. A small force maintained by the Holy See as bodyguards for the Pope, they are more famous for wearing their brightly colored ceremonial uniforms with armor and halberds. Like the Palatine Guards, this force in the 1940s was armed with a variety of small arms to protect the Pope and the properties of the Papacy in Rome. The guards in the first and third photos above are armed with Gewehr 98s.

    I imagine that even in TL-191, the Papacy would have to maintain a standing force like these.
     
  11. Alterwright "You were never even a player."

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    @pattontank12 @Historyman 14 --- A follow up!

    Armory of the Pope: 1941-1944

    Since the Swiss Guard is entirely made up of swiss soldiers with prior service in their army, it is no surprise the Papal Swiss Guards maintain an armory consisting of Swiss weaponry, along side weaponry from Italy. Here are a few examples dating around the time of the 1930s-1940s. These weapons may or may not have been butter-flied in TL-191.

    Gewehr_98.jpg

    ^^^ --- Gewehr 98

    Carcano_M1891.jpg

    ^^^ --- Carcano Modello 1891

    swiss-k31-rifle-4-2-2018-3-22-59-am.jpg

    ^^^ --- K31

    image.png

    ^^^ --- Licensed copy under Hispano-Suiza of Suomi KP-31 in Swiss service --- designated "MP-43/44"
     
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  12. Alterwright "You were never even a player."

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    Indeed. Its hard to tell really. Honestly the fact that Imperial Russia is still a thing by 1941 in TL-191 is something of a miracle for the Romanovs and all the Tsarist supporters. If a 3-year long world war, a 10-year civil war, and a 4-year long second world war can't topple the Tsar, what will, you know?

    Eh. I could be wrong though.
     
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  13. Alterwright "You were never even a player."

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    @pattontank12 @Undeadmuffin @cortz#9 --- And now for some Ukrainians!

    Ukrainian Armies --- 1917-1944

    It is interesting to see that in TL-191, Ukraine is a land deeply divided and fought over, with the various regional powers fighting for control over the land. Once part of Imperial Russia, by 1917 Ukraine was awash with violence as the Russian Civil War spilled over into the country, throwing it into chaos as communists, tsarists, anarchists, Poles, and Ukrainian nationalist all fought one another, even while the Germans occupied the country. By 1926 the fighting had finally died down to allow an independent Ukraine to be created, but deep divisions within the population would continue to endure into the Second Great War of 1941 with the Russian invasion.

    With such a turbulent and violent history between the two great wars and with so many sides vying for control at any given point, it is perhaps understandable that the Ukrainian Army potentially had a bewildering amount of influences and sources for its uniforms, weapons, and gear.

    The pictures here are meant as possible references to at least better visualize what a Ukrainian Army would look like in TL-191, from anywhere between 1917 to 1944.

    Era --- Great War to Russian Civil War: 1917-1926

    41dfb64e732fadc427dbebc272c5fd36.jpg

    ^^^ --- While some soldiers would wear Russian uniforms after possibly defecting from the Imperial Army, the independent Ukrainian government made a deliberate decision to issue uniforms to some units that harkened back to Ukraine's cossack and military past. While the rifles and gear are Russian, two soldiers wear uniforms that would be akin to those worn in the 17th Century.

    aa427157e07bdcd12185ee6c5a762f6a.jpg

    ^^^ --- Unlike battlefield in Western Europe and in North America, the vast plains and steppe of Eastern Front still facilitated a war of movement, where cavalry still had a role to play. In the years after the Great War and into the Russian Civil War, Ukrainian cavalry units would likely take on either traditional or modern uniforms from a variety of local and foreign sources.

    Screen Shot 2019-02-11 at 8.15.21 PM.png Screen Shot 2019-02-11 at 8.16.03 PM.png

    ^^^ --- Soldier from the "Blue Zhupan" Division, wearing a uniform derived from 17th Century cossack fashion. He wears a German belt with Russian pouches, armed with a Mosin Nagant. The soldier on the right in gray is part of the West Ukrainian Army, which was derived from men from Galicia originally recruited to fight for the Austro-Hungarian Empire, now fighting for Ukraine. He wears an Austro-Hungarian uniform with a Galician cap, armed with a Mannlicher rifle.

    03029077.jpg

    ^^^ --- Uniforms, kit, and weapons taken from the Russian Imperial Army would likely be very common place as men deserted the army to fight of their respective homelands, taking with the them the weapons and gear they previously fought with. The addition of brightly colored insignia and ribbons may have been dangerous to wear on a modern battlefield, but may have been entirely necessary in a country wracked by a civil war with many sides, if only to tell a part friend and foe.

    Era --- Independence, Guerrilla War, and Second Great War: 1930-1944

    As Ukraine gained its independence in the aftermath of two bloody wars that seemed to spill over the borders into one massive conflict, the task of clamping down on guerrilla activity would be a high priority. With a deeply divided people still reeling from the civil war German and Austro-Hungarian occupation duties would include building up a Ukrainian Army under German guidance and rooting out any remnants of the communists, anarchists, Russian-nationalists, and other groups that would seek destabilize the country. With the start of the Second Great War in 1941 old rivalries and old grudges would resurface as Russians, Ukrainians, Germans, Austro-Hungarians, and Poles would once again find themselves fighting across lands still healing from the Great War and Civil War.

    edb1d6fe484bd48ab0fb5e388d38a9b6.jpg
    31f5bb2b1977fa45a1a7720662d7c640.jpg
    5e26e9a7fbaf4c3be23b7f6cda7beae3.jpg
    5a440fe031b6aaf83cee580a0f241cd6.jpg eb90b63d12158b60a36154807ba0f867--emil-ukraine.jpg

    ^^^ --- With likely German influence the Ukrainian Army might still look as varied, exotic, and disheveled as it was during the Russian Civil War, with a variety of equipment and weapons take from numerous sources. As the war progresses and with so many sides taking gear from one another just to keep their troops supplied and stocked, telling a part friend and foe would be a priority, especially during anti-partisan operations where both Germans and Russians would likely use Ukrainians sympathetic to their own causes.

    I do apologize for the second half here, I can't read cyrillic so I can't give a breakdown for the uniforms here.
     
  14. Historyman 14 Well-Known Member

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    China probably has a strong Communist movement in China (especially after the failure of the Communists in Russia), but I doubt that it would succeed if there no Mao make it more 'Chinese' and for the peasants, and instead has a more Americanized form of socialism adopted in China. (Save the KMT fighting among themselves and Chiang being even more hostile to the Left-Wing parts of the Nationalists and focus on trying to kill all the Communists, Socialists, and Capitalists he can find.)

    The Socialists would be force to ally with Japan alike to the Wang Jingwei regime.

    Honesty, I can see the Tsar fall, but to Republicans, not Communists and Socialists, or even more likely surviving into the 21st Century. (Bombing St. Petersburg likely killed a lot of would be Communists and Socialists)
     
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  15. Alterwright "You were never even a player."

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    Uh-huh. I mean I can still see Mao Tse-Tung kicking around in China in TL-191 to try and create a communist state. China in TL-191 can still turn communist in this timeline independent of whatever support it might receive, but I'm not entirely sold on the idea. In fact we might even get an influx of "red Russians" into Manchuria, Mongolia, and Xinjiang since the Revolution in Russia failed --- this would be similar as to what happened in our timeline when "white Russian" emigres went to China in a kind of self-imposed exile, where they supported local warlords and even the Japanese.

    Perhaps in TL-191 China and Mongolia can be something of a safe haven for "red Russian" emigres. They would never support the Japanese of course and I doubt any local warlord would invite foreign communist into his ranks. But, it might actually prove a bit of a boon to Chinese communists along the border. Who knows.
     
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  16. cortz#9 Obrltnt of Kampfgruppe Seelöw

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    Cortez C-III fighter. An inter-war design that saw action in several skirmishes between Mexico, Guatemala and Belize in the late 1920's and early 1930's.
    Z_Mexican Seimens Schukert D-III 2.jpg
    A tough and reliable designs, examples were sold to the CSA, Australia and several small third world countries equipped their air-forces with this Mexican aircraft up into the mid 1940's.
     
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  17. Alterwright "You were never even a player."

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    Oh for sure the Tsar has to fall at some point. And yes I do doubt if would fall to socialists and communists really. That ship has sailed for them. No, different forces and different factors have to lead to the downfall of the Romanovs. Either way its going to be chaos.
     
  18. Alterwright "You were never even a player."

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    Nicely done! You even got it in colors! How did you do that? Say, what's the plane based off of, it looks cool!
     
  19. cortz#9 Obrltnt of Kampfgruppe Seelöw

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    Its a Seimens Schukert D-III 2. I too a color pic (it was mostly white to begin with) and erased the German insignia and painted the red, green and and white Mexican insignia in its place.
    Easy peasy. :)
     
  20. Alterwright "You were never even a player."

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    Oh I see now! Nicely done then! So this an Inter-War aircraft. Any ideas for what a Mexican GWII aircraft would be like?