TL-191 Uniform, weapons and equipment of the Secondary Combatants.

Discussion in 'Alternate History Books and Media' started by pattontank12, Jan 22, 2019.

  1. pattontank12 Better Dead than Red!

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    One thing I've been wondering about for Tl-191 is that type of equipment, weapons and uniforms that the secondary combatants of the Great Wars would use over the course of the conflicts. Meaning Mexico, Quebec, Ireland, Australia and Germany's Eastern European vassals.

    To start off with I noticed that in one of the earlier books the Second Great War trilogy that it was mentioned that the Quebecois were wearing blur uniforms. My personal theory is that following the First Great War the now newly independent Quebecois government wanting to distance themselves from the image of a Yankee puppet and foster their own national identity chose to adopt uniforms, based off their mother country's. Which just so happened to coincide with the fact that France at that point racked with economic troubles from the would most likely be more than willing to sell off a lot of its older equipment for cheap.
    e134fc0c0f8906789b76e99c1d4d3819--french-bleu-army-soldier.jpg

    Now obviously there'd be some evolution in the uniforms design in the following decades leading up to the next war. Most likely with Quebec taking some cues from their Union allies, the Stalhelm being of course one of the more natural choices. By the time of the second great war I'd expect Quebecois uniforms to heavily resemble OTL Vichy French and even Switzerland uniforms.
    261f6b57e0f0b403bb508c9a03b20bf9.jpg
    https://de.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Datei:1930er_Jahre_Schweizer_Armee_Uniformen.jpg
     

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  2. FanOfHistory Banned

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    [​IMG]
    Ukrainian partisans.

    In Settling Accounts, they mention that the Ukraine was plagued with guerrillas and partisans from both sides.
     
  3. Alterwright "You were never even a player."

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    Nice, so glad to se the secondary combatants getting the limelight here. I should find some references pictures of my own soon then. I have a few ideas for what the Mexicans and Quebecois armies would look like. The Mexican army would not be much different than their OTL counterpart in terms of uniform, but they would have a distinctly yellow-khaki uniform. The Quebecois, in my opinion, would have a dark sky blue uniform, heavily inspired by the Americans.
     
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  4. Alterwright "You were never even a player."

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    Mexican Army Uniforms: 1941-1944

    Okay, so, I have a thought on the look of the Mexican Army in this timeline. To be honest I don't see it being all the different than the one our timeline in terms of uniform design and personal equipment for the soldiers. The only additions that would really be made would have to be to insignia and ranks - Mexico is ruled by a monarchy in this one after all, a self styled empire in a way.

    However, that doesn't mean the weapons of the army wouldn't change either. In fact, unless Mexico produced her own rifles or licensed copies of existing ones, then believe the army's arsenal could be very different in TL-191 due to British and French connections. Furthermore, Mexico does benefit from an alliance with the British, French, and other relevant Entente allies in TL-191. Changes are inevitable, but its good to have a base to start with and the basic uniform of the Mexican Army soldier is an interesting base to start with.

    Personally for me, it was extremely hard finding uniforms for the Mexican Army in the WWII era. I kept running into uniforms from the WWI and Revolution Era, which is fine by me honestly, but for some reason I just really had to dig to find these photos. I'm not even sure they're from the right time period, but its certainly a start.

    Mexican Empire uniform 1941.jpg

    ^^^ --- Soldier, with "pineapple" grenade, Adrian helmet.

    mexican soldiers 1.jpg

    ^^^ --- Uniforms, possibly light for combat exercises and frontline engagements.

    Mexican Empire uniform 2.jpg

    ^^^ --- Soldiers here are wearing heavier overcoats, with cavalry style breeches.

    Mexican Empire uniform 3.jpg

    ^^^ --- A variety of small arms pictured here, with gear and webbing on display, possibly depicting a full squad of Mexican soldiers.

    4667f24fa61043516850dbad5b712c1f.jpg

    ^^^ --- Mexican-made Mendoza C-1934 LMG, pictured along side possible Mauser style rifles.

    6027f9aa9c6d434f8173b9677c78ffd0.jpg

    ^^^ --- Soldiers in full summer kit.

    Mexican Empire Helmet 1.jpg

    ^^^ --- Mexican Army Adrian helmets

    Mexican Empire Hat 1.jpg

    ^^^ --- Mexican Air Force officer's cap.

    mendoza_m1934.jpg

    ^^^ --- Mendoza C-1934 LMG. Noted for being light and reliable, several variants were produced locally by Mexico and was said to be comparable to the US Army's own M1918 BAR. I believe Mexico will still have the ability to produce its own weaponry in TL-191 and perhaps this gun can still be made.

    d4b496c4d013e7a8730a11c4292f0682.jpg

    ^^^ --- Mexico's own M1908 "Mondragon" Rifle, one of the world's first semi-automatic rifles and one of the first of such rifles to see combat use. It was intended for use in the Mexican Army around the 1910s and was used during the Mexican Revolution. The rifle also found service in the German Army in WWI, but never put into the field extensively. The rifle was extremely vulnerable to mud and jamming and the poor quality ammo used by the Mexicans hampered its performance even further. German attempted to chamber the rifle using their own ammo were unsuccessful. Perhaps in TL-191, at some point in the timeline, the Mexican Army try to develop this rifle?
     
  5. cortz#9 Obrltnt of Kampfgruppe Seelöw

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    Maybe the CSA could help Mexico work out the bugs in their weaponry? And afterwards even adopt some of them for their own forces.
     
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  6. FanOfHistory Banned

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    Yeah, Freedom Party volunteers come to help in the Mexican Civil War, so they may come across a Mondragon or two, and that inspires them to make an automatic Tredegar
     
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  7. pattontank12 Better Dead than Red!

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    Quebec I could see having adopted the Renault FT as their official tank following the first great war. Though they would eventually adopt German and American designed tanks around, maybe with them developing a Canadian Ram analog. Similar to how the Canadian military came up with the Ram, using M3 Grant chassis.

    I could definitely see the Tredegar Automatic Rifle being based off the Mondragon.
     
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  8. cortz#9 Obrltnt of Kampfgruppe Seelöw

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    Had a little fun with the Mondraon, took a pic of an experimental WWII British rifle and added the bolt, magazine and rear and front sights to the Mondragon. My thinking here is that the CSA simplifies the bolt mechanism and improves the breech to keep dirt and debris out. I also shorten the overall length and added a 15 round magazine.

    ++M1913 MONDRAGON.jpg
    Top the alt-M1911 Mondragon and below the OTL M1908 Mondragon.
     
  9. cortz#9 Obrltnt of Kampfgruppe Seelöw

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    From the Yankee Joe thread, the VZ-37 sub-machine gun of the Mexican army.
    V37 sub-gun+.jpg
     
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  10. pattontank12 Better Dead than Red!

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    For Ireland I imagine their uniforms would resemble OTL Polish uniforms, taking cues from both their German-American allies but also from the British Anglosphere. Having taken advantage of equipment leftover from the days of British rule.
    Polish-Infantryman-Art.jpg 364c73cd22821cf8ca9a3d56ab36342a.jpg
     
  11. cortz#9 Obrltnt of Kampfgruppe Seelöw

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    Cor-35 Falcon Mexican Army Air Corps. Single engine fighter built by the Cortez Compania de Carros (Car company) of the Empire of Mexico, an impressive aircraft when compared with the bi-plane aircraft of other Central and South American air-forces of the same period. The Cor-35 served the Mexican Empire throughout the Second Great War despite being outdated by the start of the war. The Cor-35 went from a fighter to ground-attack to night-time harassment craft. The Cor-35 last saw action in the Mexican-Guatemalan war "El Guerra de Liberacion" just before Mexico surrender to the US in the Second Great war. The Cor-35 ended its career as it started, as a fighter.

    _Cor-33 Falcon.jpg

    Made from several mid war designs and I resurrected the "El Guerra de Liberacion an idea I used over at the Alt-AFV thread as a background story for some Mexican barrels I made for the Featherston's Finest thread. "El Guerra de Liberacion was a short war fought between Guatemala and Mexico during the closing days of the Second Great War, its not a part of TL-191 but I feel it fits and I can easily imagine something like it happening in the TL-191 universe.
     
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  12. Alterwright "You were never even a player."

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    Ahaaah, well, its funny you mention that, because the Irish Defense Force around this time in our timeline... well they fit that description pretty well already! XD

    They absolutely took queues from their neighbor and I even think you or another person showed me a picture or two about the Irish helmets around this time looking eerily similar to WWI German helmets.

    OTL Irish Defense Force Uniforms - 1930s-1940s:

    4ba846a1ab3215d6e8d371f3e2e18887.jpg

    ^^^ --- Irish Defense Force uniforms, 1930s-1940s.

    e2816d8fe95d127e2d12e242d4a37466.jpg

    ^^^ --- 1930s, Artillery, Cavalry, Transportation Corps.

    6159b98d59a1b916ae5d660e47a70078.jpg

    ^^^ --- On the march, with Lee-Enfield rifles, highly likely left over from the British.

    ww2helmet.jpg

    ^^^ --- At attention, helmets and rifles on display.

    image.jpg

    ^^^ --- Vickers MG crew posing for the camera, the assistant gunner dabbing as his partner looks through the gun sights :)P)

    While its not entirely similar to the Polish uniform, the points you made about the Irish uniforms taking queues from Britain, Germany, and in TL-191's case the United States, the actual Irish uniforms already take striking similar queues from the relevant neighbors you mentioned. Can there be differences? Absolutely. I'm just saying its a funny coincidence.
     
  13. Alterwright "You were never even a player."

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    Oh I think I see what you're getting at here. So you're implying that the Confederates, while down in Mexico during the civil war there, took advantage of the volume of different firearms being used and took some of the more interesting and promising designs to see if they can come up with their own thing. They find the Mondragon and, despite noting its poor reliability, found it its design promising for the fact that it could shoot a lot of lead into the air. They improve upon it, make some of their own, and its another step in making the Tredegar Automatic Rifle.

    Either way nicely done!
     
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  14. Alterwright "You were never even a player."

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    Oh I remember this one too! Kinda similar to the Confederate "Griswold" you did, which I also love. Come to think of it I don't know if the Mexican Army in our timeline had SMGs. Might need to dig for that.
     
  15. cortz#9 Obrltnt of Kampfgruppe Seelöw

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    I wrote this up for the Alt-AFV thread but I think it fits in here and it features two tanks I did for the Featherston's Finest thread.

    Operacion Tormenta (Operation Storm) The Invasion of Southern Mexico:

    In 1945 Guatemala decides to take a gamble when the end of the Second Great War appears to be near its end. The Guatemalan army invades Mexico in hopes of profiting from the imminent US victory over the CSA.
    Things go well for Guatemala at first, they have invaded with the majority of their armoured force which consists of mostly M1 Scouts and US made army trucks, most of Mexico's barrels are serving in the North as part of the "Santa Anna" Division against the US.
    In time however the invasion grounds to a halt as the terrain favors the defender and in time mexico is able to move two army Companies that were being held in reserve, one of the Companies is equipped with a small number of CG39's and CG37's, both companies are moved to the southern front by rail.

    Guatemala meanwhile has managed to recapture the territory of Chiapas which had been annexed by Mexico a couple of decades earlier.

    The invasion goes no further as the Guatemalan army pauses to re-equip and consolidate its gains but its shortly after this pause that Mexico strikes with its small armour force and the Raccoons with their tougher armour and 45mm guns make mincemeat of the Guatemalan army, there are a few instances where some Guatemalan barrel commanders are able to strike at the Raccoons with superior numbers of M1's and a number of the Raccoons and CG37's are taken out but not enough to turn the tide and the invasion appears to be doomed

    But Guatemala has played its cards right for the CSA soon surrenders to the US and the US demands that Mexico also surrender.

    Mexico knows it cannot defeat the US alone and soon asks for terms. The US demands that Mexico hand over the Chiapas territory to Guatemala and also to surrender all arms and equipment including all of its armoured vehicles in Chiapas to the Guatemalans.
    Mexico complies and surrenders about a dozen badly damaged CG39's and a couple of dozen damaged CG37's.

    In the City of San Pedro stands a monument to what Guatemala calls "El Guerra de Liberacion" (the War of Liberation), the monument is erected near the spot where the largest battle between Mexican and Guatemalan forces fought, it is also the battle where the largest number of barrels clashed on the Central American continent in the short but bloody war of liberation.

    The armoured adversaries of the War of Liberation.

    [​IMG]
    And CG-37.
    Cortez CG.41  w Veliz M-36 20mm cannon.png

    EDIT: The CG-39 was designed and drawn by Claymore.
     
  16. cortz#9 Obrltnt of Kampfgruppe Seelöw

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    This is the emblem that Mexico uses on its tanks, aircraft ect.

    Roundel_of_Mexico.svg.png
    Do you guys think Mexico in TL-191 would use the same emblem or something different?
     
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  17. Alterwright "You were never even a player."

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    Given the Confederacy's long and interesting history with the Second Mexican Empire, its very likely a level of cooperation went down. Granted, I imagine that cooperation was a bit unequal - the Confederates make a demand and the Mexicans are pretty much strong armed into agreeing and all that. The Confederates did give the Mexicans more modern firearms for its soldiers operating in the occupied USA and while conducting anti-guerilla operations in the CSA. Cooperation to refine Mondragon in an attempt to give the Mexican Army its own homegrown rifle? Very possible I think.
     
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  18. cortz#9 Obrltnt of Kampfgruppe Seelöw

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    I agree.
     
  19. Alterwright "You were never even a player."

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    For ease of recognition, its very likely the roundels and insignia for the tanks and especially the airplanes used by the Mexicans would be the same as in our timeline. Maybe they'd used something a bit different given that Mexico is a monarchy and would want something that represents the monarch, but honestly that's looking waaaay to much into things.

    I think its fine that they use this still for their aircraft and tanks.

    148_2.jpg

    ^^^ --- Here, the actual insignia on a WWII plane actually used by a contingent of Mexican pilots serving with the US Air Force during WWII.
     
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  20. Alterwright "You were never even a player."

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    Heh, okay, so adding the discussion on the Quebecois Army in TL-191, this clothing company in Canada called "Moose Knuckle" or something had a few advertising photos to show off the new line of winter clothing they have... and I have to say they actually got just the right shade of blue for the color of what I think the Quebecois Army would be wearing. Also, I think they nailed it with an idea for a look - that being a uniform with a certain shade of blue, plus berets. In fact, I think the Quebecois would wear berets with their uniform.

    And also... women in the armed forces? Doing what specifically TL-191, given that its probably still the same mentality as 1930s-1940s Canada, I don't know but still, these ladies make a convincing argument, eh? XD

    moose-knuckles-flag.jpg
    moose-knuckles-gun.jpg
    Screen Shot 2019-01-24 at 12.58.13 AM.png

    I do agree that the Quebecois Army would have a mix sources for their equipment and uniform, definitely from the United States and probably from the British, but definitely would try to put a cultural twist to it all, naturally gravitating to the French style stuff. How French would that be? I don't know, but probably just enough not to worry United States... hopefully.