TL-191: Filling the Gaps

Discussion in 'Alternate History Books and Media' started by Craigo, Feb 12, 2010.

  1. Philosopher Jaden Smith Who gave this moron a computer?

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    Does anyone have any ideas for a place where the southern Blacks would go to found their own country, post-GWII? I feel like they wouldn’t be inclined to continue living with the Southern whites who probably still wanted much of them dead. I’m thinking they could either head to a new American territory in the Caribbean, maybe even Belize, or to somewhere in Africa, or possibly even a “New Afrika” type state in the Deep South. Which of these sounds most likely, if any?
     
  2. Spencer Pease Well-Known Member

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    In TL-191 After the End, it's established that many of the surviving black Confederates emigrated to Haiti, practically forging a new nation due to the fact that many Haitians themselves were dead from the PRs. I think it's most likely in any case.
     
  3. Historyman 14 Well-Known Member

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    They wound't be enough surviving Blacks for a New Afrika type deal. Many would go to Haiti, but I can also see a lot traveling to Pennsylvania and Massachusetts (Traditional homeland of freed blacks.) and even Utah and Canada. (To help create a loyal population.)
     
  4. Joshua Ben Ari Well-Known Member

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    Haiti is the most likely choice, and Liberia would also probably throw open the doors to accept Southern black refugees to take in as many as possible. A Black state isn't really possible in the Deep South, as there's just not enough Southern blacks left, nor would Southern blacks want to stay there. Like @Historyman 14 said, Utah and Canada is also possible as locations to create a strong pro-Union population though it could do damage to race relations.
     
  5. Allochronian Well-Known Member

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    This example of parallelism, a Black "State of Israel", doesn't really make that much sense in TL-191, at least to me.

    The idea of a Black homeland does not have the same historical connotations as it does for a Jewish homeland. Already existing Black nations such as Haiti, Liberia, and Ethiopia all have different cultural and ethnic backgrounds that no one should assume that the surviving Black Confederates would adapt so easily if they were all sent to either of them.

    After the End and Dr. Turtledove certainly have good ideas for TL-191, but I can never accept the exaggerated implications that nearly all Haitians and Black Confederates were killed to extinction.

    I tend to accept the (fan-correction) idea that while millions of Black Confederates died, it wasn't between 8-10 million, as some characters from the books estimate. For both Haitians and Black Confederates, around half of their populations, at most, were directly killed during the racial policies of Featherston. The other half mostly lived by either escaping from the Confederacy, fighting against Confederate Freedom Party Guards/Confederate soldiers, or surviving in the camps by being found by U.S. forces. I'd include a tiny percentage of Black Confederates that were hidden by sympathizers.

    A more plausible occurrence to the fate of the former Black Confederates is that they are just integrated into the United States with federal protection and massive (re)educational programs for the rest of the American citizens/subjects. Some don't change their prejudiced ways, while most do. Pretty much what OTL Germany does when talking about the Holocaust in their schools, but way more intense and with more severe consequences.
     
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  6. Joshua Ben Ari Well-Known Member

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    I remember doing calculations a while back (maybe three or four years) about what the Black Confederate population would have been in 1940 - about 10,5 million all told. The books themselves guess around 6-8 million Southern blacks have been killed, along with an untold number of Haitians. Let's assume it was the lower number, 6 million (and it works as a parallel to the Shoah) - that's 57% of the Black Confederate population. If we assume the higher number of 8 million, that's 76% of the total population. I think it was more than half, as you suggested.

    For that second paragraph, I'm guessing you meant White Confederates rather than Black Confederates?
     
  7. Allochronian Well-Known Member

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    I thought the Black Population in North America was around twelve million?

    For my second paragraph, I meant to say that while Black Confederates would receive federal protection, White Confederates and everyone else in the gigantic United States is required to learn about tolerance, peace, and equality.
     
  8. Joshua Ben Ari Well-Known Member

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    In North America, it would be 12 million. In just the Confederacy, the Black population would likely be around 10,5 million.

    Oh okay! Sorry, I just wanted to make it a little bit clearer.
     
  9. Greenhorn Well-Known Member

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    I think Liberia makes the most sense:

    A) It's already an established "haven" for American blacks, stretching back to the mid 1800s before the War of Secession
    B) It's government is run by the country's minority Amero-Liberian population, which would have a vested interest in boosting it's own numbers to counteract the growing native African population
    C) It's likely been hurt by fighting with British and French colonial assets, and could use the extra people to held rebuild and boost it's military numbers
    D) It enjoys good relations with the US, isn't on a war torn continent or island like Haiti, and is far enough removed from the former Confederacy and Entente (assuming similar de-colonization) that a Featherston round two isn't likely to occur

    I'd imagine that, in such an event, the history of Liberia would be very different once the alt-Cold War pops up, as IOTL the native Africans gained control of the Presidency in the 80s, sparking several years of civil war that, if their population is more Amero-Liberian and descended from the Population Reduction, is either postponed or averted entirely.
     
  10. Allochronian Well-Known Member

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    I made some updates to my General Timeline of TL-191 (1862-1914). I allowed the Empire of Brazil to continue existing and I added a line about how Prince-regent Salvador changed the boundaries of Mexico back to its Pre-Second Imperial borders.
     
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