TL-191: Filling the Gaps

Discussion in 'Alternate History Books and Media' started by Craigo, Feb 12, 2010.

  1. Philosopher Jaden Smith Unknown member

    Joined:
    Mar 6, 2019
    Does anyone have any ideas for a place where the southern Blacks would go to found their own country, post-GWII? I feel like they wouldn’t be inclined to continue living with the Southern whites who probably still wanted much of them dead. I’m thinking they could either head to a new American territory in the Caribbean, maybe even Belize, or to somewhere in Africa, or possibly even a “New Afrika” type state in the Deep South. Which of these sounds most likely, if any?
     
  2. Spencer Pease Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 20, 2016
    In TL-191 After the End, it's established that many of the surviving black Confederates emigrated to Haiti, practically forging a new nation due to the fact that many Haitians themselves were dead from the PRs. I think it's most likely in any case.
     
  3. Historyman 14 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 27, 2013
    Location:
    In the Land of the Ancients.
    They wound't be enough surviving Blacks for a New Afrika type deal. Many would go to Haiti, but I can also see a lot traveling to Pennsylvania and Massachusetts (Traditional homeland of freed blacks.) and even Utah and Canada. (To help create a loyal population.)
     
  4. Joshua Ben Ari Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 16, 2011
    Location:
    New England
    Haiti is the most likely choice, and Liberia would also probably throw open the doors to accept Southern black refugees to take in as many as possible. A Black state isn't really possible in the Deep South, as there's just not enough Southern blacks left, nor would Southern blacks want to stay there. Like @Historyman 14 said, Utah and Canada is also possible as locations to create a strong pro-Union population though it could do damage to race relations.
     
  5. Allochronian Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 28, 2018
    Location:
    originaltimeline
    This example of parallelism, a Black "State of Israel", doesn't really make that much sense in TL-191, at least to me.

    The idea of a Black homeland does not have the same historical connotations as it does for a Jewish homeland. Already existing Black nations such as Haiti, Liberia, and Ethiopia all have different cultural and ethnic backgrounds that no one should assume that the surviving Black Confederates would adapt so easily if they were all sent to either of them.

    After the End and Dr. Turtledove certainly have good ideas for TL-191, but I can never accept the exaggerated implications that nearly all Haitians and Black Confederates were killed to extinction.

    I tend to accept the (fan-correction) idea that while millions of Black Confederates died, it wasn't between 8-10 million, as some characters from the books estimate. For both Haitians and Black Confederates, around half of their populations, at most, were directly killed during the racial policies of Featherston. The other half mostly lived by either escaping from the Confederacy, fighting against Confederate Freedom Party Guards/Confederate soldiers, or surviving in the camps by being found by U.S. forces. I'd include a tiny percentage of Black Confederates that were hidden by sympathizers.

    A more plausible occurrence to the fate of the former Black Confederates is that they are just integrated into the United States with federal protection and massive (re)educational programs for the rest of the American citizens/subjects. Some don't change their prejudiced ways, while most do. Pretty much what OTL Germany does when talking about the Holocaust in their schools, but way more intense and with more severe consequences.
     
    Historyman 14 and Joshua Ben Ari like this.
  6. Joshua Ben Ari Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 16, 2011
    Location:
    New England
    I remember doing calculations a while back (maybe three or four years) about what the Black Confederate population would have been in 1940 - about 10,5 million all told. The books themselves guess around 6-8 million Southern blacks have been killed, along with an untold number of Haitians. Let's assume it was the lower number, 6 million (and it works as a parallel to the Shoah) - that's 57% of the Black Confederate population. If we assume the higher number of 8 million, that's 76% of the total population. I think it was more than half, as you suggested.

    For that second paragraph, I'm guessing you meant White Confederates rather than Black Confederates?
     
  7. Allochronian Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 28, 2018
    Location:
    originaltimeline
    I thought the Black Population in North America was around twelve million?

    For my second paragraph, I meant to say that while Black Confederates would receive federal protection, White Confederates and everyone else in the gigantic United States is required to learn about tolerance, peace, and equality.
     
  8. Joshua Ben Ari Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 16, 2011
    Location:
    New England
    In North America, it would be 12 million. In just the Confederacy, the Black population would likely be around 10,5 million.

    Oh okay! Sorry, I just wanted to make it a little bit clearer.
     
  9. Greenhorn Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 25, 2018
    I think Liberia makes the most sense:

    A) It's already an established "haven" for American blacks, stretching back to the mid 1800s before the War of Secession
    B) It's government is run by the country's minority Amero-Liberian population, which would have a vested interest in boosting it's own numbers to counteract the growing native African population
    C) It's likely been hurt by fighting with British and French colonial assets, and could use the extra people to held rebuild and boost it's military numbers
    D) It enjoys good relations with the US, isn't on a war torn continent or island like Haiti, and is far enough removed from the former Confederacy and Entente (assuming similar de-colonization) that a Featherston round two isn't likely to occur

    I'd imagine that, in such an event, the history of Liberia would be very different once the alt-Cold War pops up, as IOTL the native Africans gained control of the Presidency in the 80s, sparking several years of civil war that, if their population is more Amero-Liberian and descended from the Population Reduction, is either postponed or averted entirely.
     
  10. Allochronian Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 28, 2018
    Location:
    originaltimeline
    I made some updates to my General Timeline of TL-191 (1862-1914). I allowed the Empire of Brazil to continue existing and I added a line about how Prince-regent Salvador changed the boundaries of Mexico back to its Pre-Second Imperial borders.
     
    Zoidberg12 likes this.
  11. Odinson The Thunderer

    Joined:
    Nov 27, 2018
    Location:
    The Constitutional Monarchy of Virginia
    Leaders during the Mexican Civil War: 1917-1925

    The Mexican Civil War was fought from the late 1910s to mid 1920s between the socialist Popular Revolutionaries and the monarchist Royalists who backed Maximilian III.

    Royalist Faction
    The royalist faction fought to keep the emperor of Mexico on his throne during the Civil War. Support, while strained at times, was strongest in the southern parts of the Empire. They were heartily backed by Confederate political organization the Freedom Party, and outfitted with CS weapons and technology, allowing for southern experimentation in warfare.

    [​IMG]
    Félix Díaz Prieto
    Graduating as an engineer in 1888, Prieto enlisted during the Great War, serving as an officer during the US invasion of Baja. When the Civil War erupted in 1917, he found his division battling fellow Mexicans. His focus was mostly in the Baja region.

    [​IMG]
    Bernardo Reyes
    Reyes, prior to his service in the great war, he served as both the Secretary of the navy and governor of Nuevo Leon. When the Civil War broke out, Reyes quickly found himself leading the royalist armies against the revolutionaries. He was supreme commanderof the Mexican army in the field until his death from old age in 1920.

    [​IMG]
    Álvaro Obregón
    Obregón is an odd duck during this period of Mexican history. While personally left leaning, he found the popular revolutionaries wanting, and sided with the emperor. While held in suspicion by most of the Imperial Mexican government, the emperor himself gave his personal support due to him being the best commander in the field. After the death of Reyes, he became promoted to the supreme commander of the Mexican army in the field until it's end.

    Popular Revolutionaries
    The Popular Revolutionaries were a United States backed group of various left leaning groups combined into a single, if divided, organization. While funding was always low, it's cash flow dropped dramatically after the inauguration of Upton Sinclair in 1921.

    [​IMG]
    Emiliano Zapata Salazar
    Best known as Emiliano Zapata, the revolutionary hero found himself part of the loosely organized Popular Revolutionaries less out of shared ideals, but out of a common enemy. Zapata was an anarchist and died early on in the war in 1919.

    [​IMG]
    Venustiano Carranza
    One of the most conservative members of the PR, Carranza was seen as a preferable leader of Mexico by the Democratic Administration under Theodore "Teddy" Roosevelt than most of the revolutionaries. With the end of the war in 1925, he fled the country and settled in New Mexico.

    [​IMG]
    Ricardo Flores Magón
    Another anarchist, Magón worked closely with Zapata in the Baja region, primarily fighting against General Prieto of the Royalists. He was killed in battle in 1922.

    [​IMG]
    Pascual Orozco Vázquez
    Vázquez was another revolutionary in the Civil War, and the earliest recorded casualty of the Popular Revolutionaries leadership, dying in early 1918.
     
  12. m0585 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 11, 2015
    What does the thread believe that the post-retirement life of Abner Dowling would have been like?
     
  13. J.J.Jameson88 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 27, 2015
    Location:
    Long Island, New York, USA
    Personally, I like to imagine him as chief of staff in a Morrel administration. He's probably to old by that point though.
     
    Odinson and m0585 like this.
  14. m0585 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 11, 2015
    That's one pathway I imagined Dowling taking. Prior to that I imagined him being part of the reconstruction effort of the former Confederacy. Perhaps heading an Office of Reconstruction?
     
  15. vesica Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 2, 2011
    Its confirmed he was being forced into Retirement. Possibly the Secretary of War, he had proven himself to be a competent military administrator, that or as pointed out possible Civillian head of a Reconstruction Team
     
  16. m0585 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 11, 2015
    I think that's pretty spot on. I also believe he would have a role in a potential Morell Administration; perhaps, as you said, Secretary of War?
     
  17. vesica Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 2, 2011
    That's my thought. If the US decides to create a single united department to coordinate the Army, Navy and now massive United State Army Air Force (assuming it's not made it's own dedicated branch) then he could be a potentional first Secretary of Defense. Otherwise War/Army makes sense to me
     
    m0585 likes this.
  18. Matt Wiser Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 25, 2007
    Location:
    Auberry, CA
    Splitting off the AAF to form an Independent USAF makes a lot of sense. Personally, I'd expect it postwar.
     
    vesica likes this.
  19. vesica Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 2, 2011
    Aye, with how powerful and important Air Power had become (Fighter Bombers arguably were equally as important as the Mk. III at breaking Confederate resistance in Kentucky and Tennessee.) I cant see them remaining subservient to the US Army.

    Brings up another interesting follow up them; does the Naval Air Corps remain subservient to the Navy or are they incorporated into the new USAF.
     
    Nivek likes this.
  20. Matt Wiser Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 25, 2007
    Location:
    Auberry, CA
    Naval Aviation will stay where it is. Carrier-based aircraft under AF control? That's not going to happen.