TL-191: Filling the Gaps

Discussion in 'Alternate History Books and Media' started by Craigo, Feb 12, 2010.

  1. Allochronian Well-Known Member

    May 28, 2018
    Odinson and Zoidberg12 like this.
  2. TITUP Active Member

    Jun 1, 2017
    St. Louis, Missouri

    Love it.

    A while back I wrote a brief intro for what you may choose to call the Battle of the North Sea, embedded in my Kaiserliche Marine (1941) article. Feel free to use it as you see fit to flush out your ideas.

    "A true manifestation of the dream of Kaiser Wilhelm II, the Fredrick the Great class of Super-Dreadnoughts would prove to be the largest and most heavily armed ships every built. Subtlety was not the Friedrich the Great’s forte, because in addition the carrying the most tonnage of any battleship ever built, it was also the longest warship built at that time stretching an impressive 290m from stem to stern. The penalty for carrying the largest shells of any ship afloat was a further reduction in maneuverability and turning radius of 1050m (over half a mile).

    Due to her size she possessed a tremendous array of secondaries along with four, triple mounted turrets, sporting 420mm guns (just shy of 17-inches), while the turret traverse speed is slightly inferior to American and British ships of the 1930s.

    Her AA is fairly typical of other German battleships, with an adequate long-range punch that sadly does not follow through as planes come closer to the ship itself. Planes that made it past the long-range armament had no trouble hitting her due to her large size and abysmal turning circle. F.D.G’s armor was also typical of German battleship design, with a turtle-back armor scheme that made citadeling her at close range near impossible. Her deck armor is also quite substantial at 50mm, but as would be seen in the battles of 1942/3, would prove catastrophically unequal to the task of defending against British aerial bombs.

    F.D.G’s mammoth size and armament was the final culmination of Kaiser Wilhelm’s meddling in Naval affairs. While the Germans continued to build ever larger Super Dreadnaughts that emphasized armor and firepower, the navies of other nations placed less emphasis in these areas. The United States began building up their Battleship fleet in the mid to late 1930s but with an emphasis on range, speed, and target acquisition. The USN Pennsylvania and later Maryland class super dreadnoughts fired a smaller shell than the German F.D Gs, but were almost 10 knots faster, significantly more maneuverable, and had a target acquisition of almost 45km. The Americans also focused much of their research and design on AA gunnery / technology, predicated upon their lessons learned fighting the Japanese during the Pacific War. Thus, while the Grosser Kurfurst / Friedrich the Great classes of battleships would largely rely on a screen of escort ships to protect them from approaching enemy aircraft, American capital ships were more than capable of defending themselves from all but the most overwhelming of air attacks. The Americans, British, and Japanese would also move rapidly ahead with development of purpose-built Aircraft Carriers, long range cruisers, and other asymmetric naval assets throughout the 1930s, leaving the Germans behind in this critical category. Only in submarine design and development would Germany remain a step ahead of her friends and foes alike.

    Initially for the supporters of Super Dreadnoughts, the enormous investment in money and material appeared to be prescient, for in the crowning moment of the Kaiserliche Marine during the SGW, a task force of German ships, spearheaded by the Großdeutschland, Elsass, and three battlecruisers (Emden, Schlieffen, and Mackensen) intercepted and virtually annihilated a British squadron comprised of three modern dreadnoughts, and half a dozen cruisers and destroyers, that were supporting the British invasion of Norway. The unfortunate British squadron had expected support from Naval Aviation assets but in a disastrous turn of event, the Royal Navy carrier that was supposed to provide air cover was herself torpedoed and sunk by a German U boat the morning of the engagement, thus the German interlopers were free from airborne harassment. In this battle the Großdeutschland was credited with the destruction of two of the British dreadnoughts with the use of her main battery as well as two cruisers (one of which was sunk via secondary batteries). During this encounter battle, mother nature was also on the side of the Germans, as the high winds and moderate swells interfered with the superior British Y-ranging equipment’s effectiveness, and the reduced early morning visibility allowed the two squadrons to stumble into extremely closer range of one another, a factor that decidedly worked in favor of the Germans and their superior secondaries (not to mention the torpedo equipped dreadnought Elsass and accompanying battlecruisers).

    The Germans and the British would both draw stark conclusions from this engagement. Unfortunately for the Germans it would be the wrong lesson, while for the Royal Navy they would learn the proper ones. The Germans discounted the absence of British aircraft as insignificant to the outcome and congratulated themselves (once again) for producing surface ship superior to those of the Royal Navy. This victory would thus encourage the appetites of those seeking a decisive surface engagement akin to the one fought in 1916. The British correctly identified the need for better carrier escorts as well as the necessity of air cover for future operations, and thus the Admiralty began taking steps to ensure that they would enjoy air superiority over the North Sea for any future engagement.

    The following year, with the newly completed Graff Zeppelin and Peter Strassen finally operational, the Kaiserliche Marine would sortie virtually the entire High Seas Fleet in that was expected to be the decisive battle of the war. In fact, it turned out to be one of the decisive naval battles of the war, just not as Berlin had hoped. The following engagement would see the inexperienced aircrews of the Zeppelin/ Strassen cleanly outmatched. Both carriers would be lost along with 4 of Germany’s dreadnoughts. This included the super dreadnoughts Hindenburg and Wilhelm II, along with the Blucher, and Sachen. The British Grand Fleet then engaged the retreating High Seas Fleet with losses on both sides, and while the majority of German ships managed to escaped back to the safety of land-based aircraft from the Jutland Peninsula, the battle had already been won for the British. Among the thousands of casualties suffered was indeed German pride and confidence, a fact not lost on Grand Admiral Reader. In his memoirs after the war, Reader would write of the fitting irony, regarding the deceased sovereign and his namesake. For just as the Kaiser, who was to blame for much of Germany’s negligent naval expenditures of the interwar period, was known for his bluster, his namesake SMS Wilhelm II had sunk without ever having had the chance to fire her massive guns in anger."
  3. Historyman 14 Well-Known Member

    Sep 27, 2013
    In the Land of the Ancients.
    Some cross posting.

    Random random stuff about my homestate of Mississippi.

    Mississippi before War of Secession. (1848-1862.)

    1: Both Democratic and Whig Party was against California Statehood.

    2: 1850 Compromise reaction is dramatic, prompting political realignment and an rush towards secession. Senator Foote lead many Mississippians with most Whigs and some Democrats into the Union Party, who was willing to give the compromise an chance and seek to perverse the union by by compromise. Foote himself was actively involved in formulating the legislation that admitted California as an free state also pushed for 'popular sovereignty' provision to vote on slavery.

    2: Against them was the State Rights Party of Democrats who favor secession who had the support of Senator Davis, Governor Quitman, and most of the Legislature.

    3: Foote wins the Governorship by only 999 votes in 1851 and the Union Party gain controlled of the State House of Representatives. His term was largely an lull in sectional tension till 1854.

    4: Democrat John J. McRae (1854-1857.) promoted state improvements, such as the construction of railroads. Before leaving office, trains where running through Jackson to New Orleans on the Great Northen Railroad and through Meridian to Mobile and Ohio. Appropriate more money for state schools and adoption an new state code.

    5: The Ostend Manifesto.

    6: 1855, Governor McRae defeats Know-Nothing candidate Charles D. Fontaine, an former Democrat. National Democratic Party start to divide along sectional lines.

    7: Mississippi Representative William Barksdale assists Preston Brooks beating Charles Summer by holding Summer by the coat.

    8: Mississippians have hope for an resolution with the election of James Buchanan. Jacob Thompson of Mississippi becomes Sectary of the Interior. Robert J. Walker of Mississippi is appointed Governor of the Kansas Territory, but soon resigns over the validity of of the Lecompton Constitution

    9: William McWillie first year as Governor seem to be an lull as he urgent the need to protect the fertile bottomland from flooding with levees and building additional railroads. This ends with Harper's Ferry. Democrat John Jones Pettus and disunionist disciple of Quitman overpowers Harvey W. Walter.

    10: Pettus recommends $ 150, 000 for weapons and ammunition. Mississippi State Convention on Secession meet in Jackson, January 7, 1861 with William Barry as President and Lucius Q.C Lamar as Chairman to draft an ordinance of secession. Approved, 84, to 15.

    11: Battle of Ship Island.

    12: Shiloh and Corinth.

    13: Admiral David Farragut bombs Vicksburg throughout July.

    Antebellum Mississippi/Pre-Civil War/War off Secession.

    1: Start of the Civil War, there was an total of 437, 404 slaves, and less then 800 free blacks.

    2: Panic of 1837. Except for one in Yazoo City and one in Holly Springs, every private bank became insolvent, forfeited its charter and shuttered its doors.

    3: Elite planters were concentrated in the most desirable agricultural regions along the Mississippi River. (The Natchez district.) Smaller planters cleared lands in the interior. The planter class was less then 20% of all slaveholders, and 1% of white families. Tons of famous duels.

    By 1860, less then half of all white families could own even one slave. Yeoman farmers compose the majority of white families with varying social and political interests.

    4: Mississippi Married Women's Property Act of 1839 which protected an married woman ownership of property.

    5: Jefferson College, the Whitworth Female College, the Mississippi College, Oakland College. (We was underschooled.)

    6: The Methodist Church was by large the largest denomination. By 1860, it was reported 60,000 members including 11,000 African Americans in 606 Churches.

    7: Baptist churches was found in primarily in small rural communities. By 1860, 41,000 members in 529 churches. Slaves may have composed as much as one-third of Baptists members.

    Presbyterians developed churches thanks to Scot-Irish immigration in the territory. Mississippi Presbytery founded in 1816. By 1835, the Synod of Mississippi was establish with 24 Presbyterians churches. Reached only 148 by 1860. The Cumberland Presbyterian Church came in the 1830s and had 60 churches in the Northen half of Mississippi by 1860 appealing to different sets of people.

    Oldest was the Roman Catholic and Episcopalians. The Roman Catholic disappear when Spain left in 1798, until the 1840s when the Diocse of Natchez got it first bishop, and by 1860, there was only 17 churches. The Episcopalians got kicked out by the Spanish and didn't reocver till the 1820s to organize its first Diocese. Attracted wealthy planters, merchants and professionals, there was 25 Episcopal churches, mostly in the Natchez and the Gulf.

    Jews mostly in Vicksburg, Natchez, Jackson and so on. (See here, here. And Beth Israel Congregation.)

    8: Treaty of Dancing Rabbit Creek and the Treaty of Pontotoc Creek.

    9: The Nullifier Faction jointed with the Whigs to form an unusual politician alliance. (Expect they the share dislike of President I AM THE LAW Jackson, they shared very little.) During the 1830s, the Whig-Nullifier group was often able to successfully the Jacksonian Democrats in statewide political contests.

    The Wings in Mississippi would be the OTL 'Bourbons'. Democrats/aristocratic conservatives who ran the State after Reconstruction and an lot of the time acted like it was still 1860 and not 1877, or water it down. For what it was worth, they did support diversify the state with outside investment to fuel railroads, industrial manufacturing, and was willing to work with Northen businessmen, fiends in big business as it were. (Among them was Lucius Q.C Lamar, Longstreet's VP, John Marshall Stone, Robert Lowry, James Z. George, and Edward C. Walthall. )

    Then the OTL Populists of the State, the Radical Liberals. The small farmers and progressive third-party. (Financial reform, sliver coins, and paper notes. And to protect farmers from falling commodity prices and big on regulations to stop railroads from engaging in price-fixing schemes.) Among them Oliver Hudson Kelley, Thomas Gore, Absolom M. West, Rufus K. Prewitt, Clark Lewis, Joseph H. Beeman, and Frank Burkitt.

    The Liberals (before the merger with the Radicals) would be competing with the Radicals (populists, financial reformers, industrialists) and a Farmers party. The Mississippi merger of Radicals, Liberals, and Farmers would be enough to really challenge the Whigs for the Governorship. (Thanks to @Joshua Ben Ari.)
  4. Allochronian Well-Known Member

    May 28, 2018
    General Events of TL-191, 1862-1882

    Point of Divergence: On September 10, 1862, General Robert E. Lee's Special Orders, No. 191 is recovered by a Confederate corporal and Confederate private in Frederick County, Maryland, which is returned to a courier, successfully delivered to their recipients, and allows the Confederacy to win a decisive battle that grants it independence.

    • 1862
    • 1863
    • 1864
      • April 10: Maximilian accepts the Crown, just like OTL.
      • April 14: Maximilian and his wife, Charlotte, leave Miramar for Mexico, just like OTL.
      • May 29: The Imperial Couple arrive in Veracruz, just like OTL.
      • August 10: Uruguayan War begins, just like OTL.
      • October 12: Paraguayan War begins, just like OTL.
      • November 8: Abraham Lincoln loses re-election.
    • 1865
      • Maximilian, with the influence of Matthew Fontaine Maury, encourages Confederate immigration to the Empire, almost in a similar manner like OTL.
      • The Thirteenth Amendment that bans slavery, except as a form of punishment, is passed in the United States. It is one of the last things that Lincoln was able to do before his term ends.
      • February 20: Uruguayan War ends, just like OTL.
      • March 4: Inauguration of the 17th President of the United States of America.
      • March 13: The Second Mexican Empire is divided into 50 departments, just like OTL.
      • July 15: Dominican Restoration War ends, just like OTL.
      • September 16: Maximilian adopts as his heirs Salvador de Iturbide y Marzán and Agustín de Iturbide y Green, grandsons of Agustín de Iturbide, the First Mexican Emperor, just like OTL.
    • 1866
      • May 31: France continues to allow French forces to remain in Mexico until the later part of the 1860's.
      • June 14: Austro-Prussian War begins, just like OTL.
      • July 16: Austro-Prussian ends, just like OTL.
    • 1867
      • Concerned that any findings of gold in Russian America would allow it to be easily conquered by either the Americans or British, and that they were in need of money after being defeated in the Crimean War, the Imperial Russian government offers to sell their North American territory to both nations. Britain refuses and the United States is unable to buy it due to a lack of enough payment. Russian America remains with the Russian Empire.
      • July 1: The Dominion of Canada is formed, just like OTL.
      • November 5th: 1867 C.S. Presidential election, occurs.
    • 1868
      • Six Years' War begins in the Dominican Republic, just like OTL.
      • March 4: Inauguration of the Second Confederate President.
      • November 3: 1868 U.S. Presidential election occurs, just like OTL.
      • October 10: Ten Years War begins in Cuba, just like OTL.
    • 1869
    • 1870
      • During the 1870's, the Confederates become involved in Cuba and are able to annex Cuba as a Confederate territory after defeating the Spanish in the Spanish-Confederate War. To circumvent the issue of re-imposing slavery to the island without banning it due to its constitutional impossibility, White Confederates from the mainland are barred from settling on the territory, unless given special permission by the government. This is similar to the situation in the Indian Territory, but it is a temporary solution.
      • The proposal to annex the Dominican Republic is rejected by the United States, almost in a similar manner in OTL.
      • Winfield Scott Featherston, a Brigadier General from the War of Secession, becomes Senator of Mississippi.
      • March 1: Paraguayan War ends, just like OTL.
      • April 22: Vladimir Ilyich Ulyanov is born, just like OTL.
      • July 19: Franco-Prussian War begins, just like OTL.
      • September 1: Fall of the Second French Empire, just like OTL.
      • September 4: Proclamation of the Third French Republic, just like OTL.
      • September 20: Capture of Rome occurs, just like OTL.
    • 1871
      • Rome declared the capital of the Kingdom of Italy. The Italian Unification ends, just like OTL.
      • January 18: Unification of the German Empire, just like OTL.
      • January 28: Franco-Prussian War ends, just like OTL.
    • 1872
      • February 29: María Josepha Sophia de Iturbide is born, just like OTL.
      • July 4: Calvin Coolidge is born, just like OTL.
      • November 5: 1872 U.S. Presidential election occurs, just like OTL
    • 1873
      • Scipio, a Black Confederate slave, is born.
      • March 4: Inauguration of U.S. President, just like OTL
      • November 4: 1873 C.S. Presidential election occurs.
      • December 30: Alfred Emanuel Smith is born, just like OTL.
    • 1874
      • March 4: Inauguration of Third C.S. President
      • August 10: Herbert Hoover is born, just like OTL.
    • 1875
      • Ottoman Empire files for partial bankruptcy and places its own finances under the control of European creditors, just like OTL.
    • 1876
      • July 4: U.S. Centennial occurs, just like OTL.
      • November 7: 1876 U.S. Presidential Election occurs, just like OTL.
      • Fourteenth Amendment is passed. Deals with defining citizenship in the USA. Grants birthright and parentage citizenship, regardless of race and color.
    • 1877
    • 1878
    • 1879
      • Maximilian I of Mexico dies of malaria. His 30 year old adoptive son, Salvador, is chosen as imperial prince regent, since the 16 year old Agustin de Iturbide y Green, who is next in-line to the throne is too young to rule. He changes the territorial boundaries of Mexico and reverts back to its 1864 state borders.
      • October 7: Dual Alliance between Germany and Austria-Hungary is formed, just like OTL.
      • November 4: 1879 C.S. Presidential election occurs. James Longstreet becomes President of the Confederate States.
    • 1880
      • March 4: Inauguration of President James Longstreet.
      • November 7: 1880 U.S. Presidential election occurs, just like OTL.
    • 1881
      • April 2: After coming of age, Agustín III becomes Emperor of Mexico, although he would rely on his cousin for guidance in ruling over the Empire.
      • March 4th: James G. Blaine is inaugurated President of the United States.
      • June 14: The Beauregard Purchase occurs, named after P. G. T. Beauregard, the C.S. ambassador to Mexico, and the states of Sonora and Chihuahua are transferred over to Confederate control for CS$3,000,000 worth of gold and silver. A land lease for the Confederates is also granted for the Mexican territory of Baja California. President Blaine threatens war under a false narrative that the Confederates forced Mexico to sell part of their land. He gives the Confederacy 10 days to withdraw from the purchased land or face war.
      • June 25: The Second Mexican War, also known as the War of 1881, begins after the United States refuses to allow the Confederates to lawfully purchase the states of Sonora and Chihuahua and lease the Mexican territory of Baja California. Britain, France, and Mexico join the Confederate States against the USA.
    • 1882
      • April 22: The USA is defeated. President Blaine creates Remembrance Day as a day of national mourning. American revanchism, which is known as Remembrance, is also created and defines the political climate of the late-19th Century to early-20th Century in the United States.
    Last edited: Jul 7, 2019
  5. Allochronian Well-Known Member

    May 28, 2018
    General Events of TL-191, 1882-1914

    Point of Divergence: On September 10, 1862, General Robert E. Lee's Special Orders, No. 191 is recovered by a Confederate corporal and Confederate private in Frederick County, Maryland, which is returned to a courier, successfully delivered to their recipients, and allows the Confederacy to win a decisive battle that grants it independence.

    • 1882
      • Abraham Lincoln forms the Socialist Party of the United States of America.
      • May 20: The Quadruple Alliance is formed between Germany, Austria-Hungary, Italy, and the United States.
      • May 22: The Confederate Exclusion Act is passed, which prohibits Confederate immigration to the United States. Some exceptions are made: those born before 1882 and/or those involved in commercial business between USA and CSA.
      • May 25: A Constitutional Convention is held in Richmond to adopt a new constitution so that slavery can legally be abolished. Despite much protest domestically and facing economic sanctions from Britain and France, the 1882 Constitution is passed. However, Black Confederates are made to be permanent residents of the CSA.
    • 1883
      • The Confederate Indian Territory is granted statehood.
      • Flora Hamburger is born.
    • 1884
      • May 8: Harry S. Truman is born, just like OTL.
      • July 31: Anthony Dresser in born.
      • November 4: Blaine looses re-election.
    • 1885
      • Fifteenth Amendment is passed. Deals with the conscription of male U.S. citizens when reaching the age of 18.
    • 1886
      • The German Empire gives the United States a statue as a gift for its 110th Anniversary. It is named the Statue of Remembrance and depicts Columbia with a sword in one hand pointed upwards toward the sky. It has a strong resemblance to the Hermann Statue in Deltmold, Germany.
      • A relative of Winfield Scott Featherston is born.
      • Gordon McSweeney is born.
    • 1887
      • The Confederate Cuba Territory is granted statehood.
    • 1888
    • 1889
      • Mayerling Incident occurs, just like OTL.
      • April 20: Adolf Hitler is born, just like OTL.
      • March 4th: Inauguration of President Thomas Brackett Reed.
      • November 15: Empire of Brazil continues to exist. With the support of His Imperial Majesty, Pedro II, Isabel becomes the first Empress of Brazil, after his abdication.
    • 1890
      • Confederate Chihuahua Territory and Sonora Territory are granted statehood.
      • Cincinnatus is born.
    • 1891
      • Irving Morrell is born.
      • Erwin Rommel is born.
    • 1892
      • Jefferson Pinkard is born.
    • 1893
    • 1894
      • CSA begins to make plans with the Nicaraguan government to create a canal that would connect the Caribbean Sea and Pacific Ocean.
      • José Doroteo Arango Arámbula illegally immigrates to the CSA where he is able to pass off being White and becomes involved in the political landscape of Chihuahua.
      • Hipolito Rodriguez is born.
    • 1895
      • President Reed signs a mutual support treaty between the USA and Haiti after hearing of a possible invasion, if not just a strong meddling in the affairs, of Haiti by the Confederates.
      • February 26: Imperial Prince Regent, Salvador of Mexico, dies.
    • 1896
      • November 3: Alfred Thayer Mahan is elected President of the United States.
    • 1897
      • March 4: Inauguration of President Alfred Thayer Mahan.
      • October 29: Saul Joseph Goldman is born.
      • Plans to create a canal in Nicaragua are revealed and President Mahan threatens war with the Confederacy if they do not cease all attempts at building it. The Confederates back down after not being guaranteed to receive help from Britain and France.
    • 1898
      • Anglo-Confederate Alliance is formed.
    • 1899
      • November 2: Boxer Rebellion occurs, almost similar to OTL. Nine-Nation Alliance: Britain, France, Japan, Germany, USA, CSA, Italy, and Austria-Hungary.
    • 1900
      • Charles W. La Follette is born.
    • 1901
      • September 7: Boxer Rebellion ends, almost similar to OTL.
      • November 27: Hispano-Japanese War occurs.
    • 1902
      • March 24: Thomas Dewey is born, just like OTL.
      • December 5: Hispano-Japanese War ends in Japanese victory.
      • December 9: Venezuelan Naval Blockade begins, almost similar to OTL.
    • 1903
      • February 19: Venezuelan Naval Blockade ends, almost similar to OTL.
    • 1904
    • 1905
    • 1906
      • May 1906: First Moroccan Crisis ends, just like OTL.
    • 1907
      • After signing the Anglo-Russian Entente, the Quadruple Entente is formed between Britain, France, Russia, and CSA. Almost similar to OTL.
    • 1908
    • 1909
      • March 31: Bosnian Crisis ends, just like OTL.
      • November 2: Thomas Woodrow Wilson is elected C.S. president.
    • 1910
      • Confederate-Mexican Alliance is signed between the Empire of Mexico and the Confederacy that grants military support for each other in case of war with the USA. No obligations for other Quadruple Entente members are made, however, Mexico would eventually become an associated ally/co-belligerent during the First Great War.
      • March 4: Inauguration of President Thomas Woodrow Wilson.
    • 1911
    • 1912
      • October 8: Balkan Wars begins, just like OTL.
      • October 18: Italo-Turkish War ends, just like OTL.
      • November 5: Theodore Roosevelt is elected U.S. president.
    • 1913
      • March 4: Inauguration of President Theodore Roosevelt.
      • July 18: Balkan Wars end, just like OTL.
    • 1914
    Last edited: Jul 7, 2019
  6. shadow Well-Known Member

    Jul 14, 2015
    Brazil is still a monarchy in timeline 191
    Odinson and Archangel like this.
  7. Allochronian Well-Known Member

    May 28, 2018
    It shouldn't be, if Dr. Turtledove did some research on Brazilian history.

    Pedro II's male children were born and died before 1862. His only living heirs were his two daughters and didn't believe that the elites would ever accept a woman as ruler of an empire.

    Brazil becoming a republic in TL-191 is a reasonable correction.
  8. shadow Well-Known Member

    Jul 14, 2015
    fixing mistakes in timeline 191 is not the purpose of this thread the purpose is to fill in the gaps left by the book series.
  9. Tiro Well-Known Member

    Jul 15, 2015
    In this timeline old TR fought and won the First World War, allowing the United States of America to finally make good as a Great Power after fifty years of humiliations - doubtless leading to him topping many "Greatest Presidents" lists to boot - I'm astonished he didn't live to be ninety after that sort of boost!
  10. Zoidberg12 Well-Known Member

    Nov 7, 2012
    New Jersey, U.S.A.
    It do plan on writing some more articles for this thread sometime soon. In the meantime, I figured that I'd cross-post these posts from the Photos of Timeline 191 thread about different nations during the Twentieth Century and GWII. I may expand some of these posts into full fledged articles at some point in the future.

    Last edited: Jul 30, 2019
    President Mahan likes this.
  11. Zoidberg12 Well-Known Member

    Nov 7, 2012
    New Jersey, U.S.A.
    President Mahan likes this.
  12. Zoidberg12 Well-Known Member

    Nov 7, 2012
    New Jersey, U.S.A.
    Last edited: Nov 12, 2019
  13. m0585 Well-Known Member

    Dec 11, 2015
    Would anyone be interested in collaborating with me to fill in the European fronts during GWII?
    President Mahan likes this.
  14. Allochronian Well-Known Member

    May 28, 2018
    I'd like to be involved, if I can.

    What are some ideas that you have in mind?
    Last edited: Jun 6, 2019
  15. Odinson The Thunderer

    Nov 27, 2018
    The Constitutional Monarchy of Virginia
    Say, does anyone know who James G Blaine's vice president was?
  16. m0585 Well-Known Member

    Dec 11, 2015
    I mainly had some ideas on the Entente's invasion of Norway, the Alsace-Lorraine and Low Country campaigns.
  17. vesica Well-Known Member

    Jan 2, 2011
    I'd also gladly jump in on this project, I've had ideas about this for years
    m0585 and Dante like this.
  18. vesica Well-Known Member

    Jan 2, 2011
    In fact; I was in the midst of building an Entente and German Order of Battle

    What I've gone so far

    Anglo-French Invasion of Germany & the Low Countries

    Codename: Operation Charlemagne

    French 1st Army Group - Invasion of Alsace-Lorraine
    - French 1st Army
    - French 2nd Army
    - French 7th Army
    - French 9th Army
    - French 10th Army

    Entente 2nd Army Group - Invasion of Low Countries
    - French 3rd Army
    - French 4th Army
    - French 6th Army
    - British Expeditionary Force
    -- British 1st Army
    -- British 4th Army
    --- British I Airborne Corps
    ---- British 1st Airborne Division
    ---- British 7th Airborne Division
  19. m0585 Well-Known Member

    Dec 11, 2015
    This looks very good. My only question: would the British have airborne units? I thought the U.S. was the first to use them at Chattanooga in 1943?
    Zoidberg12 likes this.
  20. vesica Well-Known Member

    Jan 2, 2011
    Its mentioned they are the only ones in the North American continent that it's used; it's more then distinctly possible, as I'm assuming, the British used them to neutralize several German and Dutch fortification in Belgium and the Netherlands to make the advance easier similar to how the Germans used them in their invasion of the Low Countries.

    Well not mentioned, it's a common theme that events in Europe directly influence or inspire offensives in North America (the barrel roll offensive being an exception)

    I'm working on a more detailed OrBat