TL 191: Entene victory in First Great War

Relatively major territory loss is a stalemate? :eek:

Anyway, for the next war, I'd say an ultimate allied victory. The first three would've been lost primarily by sheer bad luck alone. Having four major wars lost despite a superior position because of bad luck is ASB. Although the US is going to be in a weaker position in this TL, the CS is going to be, as well. You're not going to see an aggressive CS; they've already regained their desired territory, and have no reason to attack the US again. You'll end up with the US fucking pissed and ready to throw in its all against the CSA. The Remembrance Days of OTL are going to be completely renewed; a typical man living in New York might not remember when Virginia was part of the union, but they'll surely be angered at the loss of Maryland. The CS has no chance of getting a Featherston in charge in this TL; you'll see the Whigs just trounce along, trying to avoid war with the US, but not afraid to partake in it if necessary (esp. if short North American war). This time around, a strong focus will be put into creating a war industry years in advance. You'll end up seeing President Lindbergh launch a massive assault on the CSA with "Operation Liberation," June 22nd, 1941, and rapidly crush Confederate resistance. ;)

Or the US could be completely cowed by three lost wars, see the CSA as an indomitable power, and meekly submit. :)

I Agree witht he last pint, it think the US, or at elast the polititons would at least have had enought of War. I Think Turtledove realy designed the books form the outset to be an Ameirwank.
 
I Agree witht he last pint, it think the US, or at elast the polititons would at least have had enought of War. I Think Turtledove realy designed the books form the outset to be an Ameirwank.

I don't think so. When he wrote How Few Remain, I don't think he was planning on making a long series, and that book alone certainly wasn't an Ameriwank. The other books in the series don't really add up to an Ameriwank, either. America goes through two horribly nasty wars, and for what? In terms of territory, it trades Texas for Baja California (possibly) and Cuba. Not a fair trade at all. The rest of the Confederate States are going to hate the rest of the nation, fuck with the legal system (like Kentucky did between the Great Wars), provide guerrillas, etc. Utah's a constant thorn in America's side and provides a great deal of home grown terrorism. Outside of that... a friendly, independent Quebec? I'd rather the friendly, independent all-of-Canada of OTL. ;-)
 
I need to ask, Why does everyone think in a Entente-victorious TL-191 GReat war, that the CSA will get all of New Mexico? the State is Huge, in the event they Manage to win, I can;t see them taking the whole thing, maybe Just OTl's arizona, but not the whole thing.
 
In my map, that was a mistake. I actually mistakenly thought that Arizona and New Mexico were part of the CS already. It's been years since I read the books.
 
I still think an Entente victory for the CSA means that the latter hangs on by a thread... they are just too out-gunned and out-manned to really win the war. The best they can hope for is to not be invaded....
 
Well the CS strategy for the invasion was actually quite cunning as far as World War I tactics went.

The surge northward in a sweeping manner both to capture Philadelphia and trap hundreds of thousands of troops in a salient in Baltimore.

If both these worked, it's very possible that the US will to fight would collapse. Mind you TR's not going to give up, but you could see something along the lines of the Eastern Front OTL, soldiers shooting officers and complete disorder taking place within the ranks of the military and civiliian populace.

Very iffy, but isn't that the entire point of this thread?
 
Actually, I find it unlikely that Delaware would fall into the Confederacy's hands by right of conquest. The great wheel that took the Army of Northern Virginia from the Shenandoah into Maryland and into Pennsylvania would take them well to the west of the mouth of the Susquehanna; the Confederates couldn't even break into Baltimore, and that's a good ways west of Delaware.
 
I need to ask, Why does everyone think in a Entente-victorious TL-191 GReat war, that the CSA will get all of New Mexico? the State is Huge, in the event they Manage to win, I can;t see them taking the whole thing, maybe Just OTl's arizona, but not the whole thing.

Because of historical claims dating back to the so-called "Confederate Territory of Arizona" and Sibley's invasion. Even then it's a shaky claim at best.
 
Well the CS strategy for the invasion was actually quite cunning as far as World War I tactics went.

The surge northward in a sweeping manner both to capture Philadelphia and trap hundreds of thousands of troops in a salient in Baltimore.

If both these worked, it's very possible that the US will to fight would collapse. Mind you TR's not going to give up, but you could see something along the lines of the Eastern Front OTL, soldiers shooting officers and complete disorder taking place within the ranks of the military and civiliian populace.

Very iffy, but isn't that the entire point of this thread?

It was about as cunning as the OTL Schlieffen Plan on which it was modeled, and about as original as Lee's invasion of the North in 1862 which would have taken the Confederates on that very same path (and did in TL-191's Civil War).

Also the plan called for capturing Baltimore, which would secure the flank of the main move past Philadelphia. As Featherston and his men pointed out each day that Baltimore remained open meant one day closer that the Army of Northern Virginia was coming to irrevocable disaster.
 
Dean_the_Young had a Entente victory scenario that went in a very dystopian direction. The POD is Teddy Roosevelt dying while visiting the U.S. trenches in 1915 (in the original series he's ducked at the initiative of Chester Martin. Here it is:

Originally posted by Dean_the_Young

The war continues the same in the short run, but come election time with no TR to rally behind, war weariness puts Eugene Debs in the Powell House. He follows through with his pledge to make peace, and both Britain and the CSA accept the terms status quo ante bellum. The US loses the Sandwhich Islands, all gains on both fronts, and loses Kentucky in a plebescite for a second time. Germany, left alone, is torn apart as the Entente focuses on the last big foe. Because barrels never saw widespread use, only a bare handful on all sides recognize their potential.

However, back home the US experiances domestic troubles like none ever seen before. Though territorily North America is back to status quo ante bellum, Britain, Canada, and the CSA resume their policy of encirclement, and soon return for making demands with economic and military threats. President Debs is soon forced with having to sign a demilitarization treaty that clearly favors Canada and the CSA, and other humiliating acts such as "mutual reparations treaty" which is nothing more than repriations to Canada and the CSA. Even Utah is not exempt; the autonomous region of Deseret is immune to federal enforcement of laws. To top it off, the Entente quietly insures that the Socialists don't lose power through political intrigue. There was no just peace, only a return to humiliation.

Hyper inflation comes slower than in Germany, but it comes. The millions of men conscripted for the Army, an Army that was largly winning with gains in all fronts and beating back the Confederate's own thrust, are out of jobs. Settling in the frontier is no longer a safety valve for dissatisfaction; the bubble is quick to grow. Veteran riots are the first symptom, and then the loss of federal control over the police. Though the Socialists are now out of the Powell House, the Democrats prove just as unable to end the economic woe. Years pass, and names such as McSweeney, Chester Martin, and Irving Morrel slowly come into importance.

When an increasingly worried Socialist administration (elected after over a decade of useless democratic rule) calls out the military to disperse the armed mob marching on Philadelphia, the chaos truly breaks out. The military establishment, furious over the Socialist administration and the hacking of military defense budget, refuse to obey socialist commands and permit the rioters into the de facto capital of the United States. The rioters, quickly immitated across the nation, go on a rampage. The military only stands by, and soon across America a socialist witch hunt has emerged.

Every prominant socialist and anti-war demonstrator is either hunted down or flees elsewhere. Not even the young "Conscious of Congress" is spared, shot by influential steelworker and Sergeant Chester Martin when she was caught trying to stop the bloodshed. Across the nation, lukewarm socialists are pressed either by the national humiliation or by the writing on the wall to reject the teachings of Marx and embrace the Remebrance Party ideology.

This is only possible because years have softened the Entente and the fact that the military is the only undisrupted part of the US. In Canada and Britain, relief at winning the last war is paired with never wanting to fight again, less the war not be ended as it was. In the Confederacy, the rich elite has been thinned by Yankee machineguns and the Red Rebellion killed many more. Though years have passed and the CSA is undergoing a period of economic prosperity, many in Richmond are concerned about the chaos in the north. Though they remain the masters of the continent and the ruling Whigs look at the chaos in the North as proof of Confederate superiority, certain individuals such as MAJ Potter remain concerned. The US still outweighs both the CSA and Canada, the red movement still hasn't been quashed, and no one is preparing.

Back in the US, a new order gradually emerges. Socialism in the US is now dead, on pain of death. Even the other parties are changed. Democrats, marred by their perceived weakness after the war when the US was once again encircled, are no longer the dominant force. The Republicans, who redeemed themselves during "the Socialist Cleansing", remain an increased faction. No, the new power of the capital is the Remebrance Party, which started before the Cleansing. Supported by the military establishment, by the former soldiers, and by any and all who thought the US had not truely lost the war. Though not headed by any single person as is the case with the Nazi Party in Germany, several figures rival and rule. McSweeney, Martin, Moss. Even Custer, during his last years, was an honored member. They are the dominant party, and are slowly enveloping the other two though there is no forceful coercion to vote Remebrance. The public now likes the Remembrance plan.

The refusal to pay debts was a major early success, especailly when it was revealed in a Richmond newspaper that the Entente was about to announce a releasal from the "mutual compensation" treaty. They're buildup of the military is also appreciated, and the Party is quite clear that they want their officers to be inovative and to fully use the US's resources, including a massive scientific base. Revenge on the anglosphere is also a big one, and probably the boogeyman. Socialists are the official scapegoat, though the Mormons are about as oppressed as blacks in the CSA, with tatoos always visible on their hands. However, race is not an issue in the US; as long as immigrants support the remembrance ideology they are mostly left alone.

In the end, the lack of opposition by the entente, who were worried about eachother as much as by Germany or the United States, were the end cause of the Axis victory in WW2. Though the US-German alliance was loose thanks to the perceived betrayal of the previous war, the end results were as desired by the right-wing countries. Barrels quickly took out France in the European front, and US barells with winter modifications similarly captured the key eastern Canadian seaboard, the western Canadian ports, and the central Winipeg railroad junction as clockwork, though the Canadian resistance through matters in doubt for a long time afterwards. Russia and the CSA put up more resistance, but Britain could not feed enough troops or supplies to either and slowly both were ground into total submission. The USA's indescriminate use of the new nerve gas is considered the tool that broke the Confederate's Tenessee River line, and the massive use of nerve gas on the white cities killed untold millions.

Eventually, the winter-prepared (with US assistance) German tanks crushed the western Russian industrial areas, and US barrells cut the Confederate resistance to ribbons, as not even Confederate General George S. Patton could compete with the numerous and much more advanced US Army's weaponry. When both the CSA and Russia were clearly knocked out of the fight, the British Empire sent out emmisionaries to explore the possibility of an armistace.

They were rejected through US pressure on Germany, when the US revealed in secret talks that they had a special weapon to use on the British Empire that would be finished in less than a year. A slow, starving naval war commenced. Though the US never repeated the early naval success of the first world war, she and germany slowly starved Britain. Then, in the last year of the war, US planes from France dropped 3 atomic bombs on Britain's three largest non-Irish cities.

In return for the survival of their people, Great Britain was forced to let go all their imperial possessions. With the exception of the Sandwhich Islands, every Britsh Pacific possession, including Australia, fell to Japan, who proved herself a harsh master. Nazi Germany annexed all she desired from Russia and France, and held down the the populations through sheer brutality.

The United States, though, was the cruelest victor. The Remembrance ideology had spawned an infinite hatred for all other anglo-nations, and the former Confederacy and Canada felt the boot. The Americans, no longer anything but a nation of willing fascists, enjoyed squashing resistance whereever they could find it, or if no resistance was present, incite it. In '48 Richmond was nuked when a US-incited uprising spiraled out of conventional control, and in '54 the US nuked London again when a ship load of weapons was intercepted between Canada (which suffered nerve gas bombings in sperate cities 45' and 47').

In the end, it was a mercy to the world (and this writer) that the US's overuse of nuclear weapons triggered a three-way MAD scenario between the US, Germany, and Japan in '60.



That just expanded, and spiraled out of control by the end.
 
That TL is the most depressing TL-191 spinoff I've ever seen. Once I saw that a fascist, psychotically violent US nuked Richmond and London & eventually ended up as allies to Imperial Japan & Nazi Germany, I thought "Jesus Christ, if that's normal, how the fuck can that TL get out of control, Sam Carsten finally destroying the cause of his sunburn with a manaical glee as the sun explodes and kills everyone?!":eek:

...I really shouldn't eat tons of sugar before I go to AH.com...
 
Moral of the story... Fascist dicators and the Confederate States just cannot exist in the same world. It just doesn't end well. :p
 
I’ve been re-reading TL-191 and found myself wondering how a CSA victory might pan out so looked at this thread for inspiration/further consideration.

As Potter says in one of the books, he knew the relatively true state of affairs between USA and CSA in 1914 through 1917 and there was no way the CSA could hope to last in an endurance contest therefore they’d have had to go for a quick knock-out punch. USA therefore has to be on the losing side of a lot of battles – Kentucky was the main battleground as well as Virginia and Tennessee so have the CSA prepare (even) better defences, the USA losing more troops and the Socialists might have more cause to agitate. Would it be ASB to have the CSA use poison gas/chemical warfare first? Frankly, a Socialist revolution with Mormon agitation is the best way for the USA to lose the war rather than the CSA coming out on top in combat.

For an Entente victory generally, the Entente powers have to completely co-ordinate themselves a lot better. This probably means transferring UK/French assets in Mexico and the Caribbean (presumably France has some notional stake in Mexico given their propping up of the Emperor) to CSA control, proper UK/French co-ordination on the Western Front and ideally the ability to transfer for British troops over to Canada to hold off the US advances there.

The UK has to realise the Sandwich Islands would be an immediate target for the US Pacific Fleet so have more ships there or better yet, convince the Japanese to have a stronger presence (for a free hand in China) or even further encourage development of the Australian and New Zealand navies so that assets can be moved around. With the USA confined to the West Coast, it’d help keep Entente trade moving around.

This said, WW1 breaks out, the Entente are ready for it – US moves in the pacific are thwarted, German colonies are captured, US advances in to Canada make little/no progress, German and US troops in their respective theatres suffer heavier casualties and this causes socialist agitation in both countries. Popular revolution breaks out and new regimes quickly put an end to the war.

So what would a peace look like? This would be the third time the USA has been beaten by her smaller neighbour, twice because the USA declared war first. This might have some profound effects. I remember in American Front there were lines about Missouri citizens wishing they were Rebs – would there be enough popular sentiment to detatch from the USA and join the CSA? I think the same was also said about southern Illinois. I think splitting of New Mexico is also possible between USA/CSA. There could be a notion like “we didn’t ask for anything in the Second Mexican War except recognition of our purchases so this time, we want more land”. It’s not entirely outlandish that the CSA makes a formal move towards Liberia and Haiti as the USA will not be able to prop them up. Would other parts of the USA seek independence – New England for example as they look to their northern neighbours?

Assuming they haven’t been crushed, I think that the Mormons would be reluctantly granted permission to form the nation of Deseret and become a fifth Entente power (for their own protection). The UK wouldn’t insist on any territorial changes, they’ve swallowed up former German colonies in Africa and shared her Pacific Empire with Japan. France will have Alsace-Lorraine returned but Russia might see about biting a few large chunks of Austria-Hungary with other rewards for Serbia. Would there be a socialist Bavaria as per OTL? With no USSR, it might be allowed to stay “red”.

Just a few thoughts.
 
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