TL 191: Entene victory in First Great War

In a heavy CSA victory, they'd probably take these from the USA:
-New Mexico
-Kansas
-Missouri
-Maryland
-West Virginia
-Utah (Deseret) would be made independent
 
WW1 not the ACW.

This is TL191, from an AH series by Turtledove. It takes place after a CS win and involves things like the Second Mexican War (in the 1880s) and then a WWI - WWII era analogue. So this is a Great War with US as part of the Central Powers and the CS as part of the Entente.
 
Canada probably moves its border down somewhat, I think Maine is annexed, maybe the Upper Peninsula? I forget if Mexico was part of it, if they were they might receive some land in Southern California.
 
If the US had lost that war, they have been stripped of quite a bit.
They'd lose:

To Britain/Canada:
Maine.
New Hampshire.
Vermont.
Their part of the St. Lawrence valley.
The Niagara region.
Detroit and it's immediate surroundings along the Detroit and St. Clair rivers.
The Upper Peninsula of Michigan.
The Red River valley, much of Minnesota and the rest of the northern half of Dakota.
Montana.
Idaho.
Oregon.
Washington State. (Renamed New Caledonia? or merged with Oregon? Or kept under it's current name as a hint of irony with the Union Jack waving overhead?)

A shitload of money/material goods in reparations for the damage done by the War.

To the CSA:
Maryland.
'West Virgina' returned to Virginia.
Missouri.
A good chunk of downstate Illinois.
New Mexico.
Kansas.

A shitload of money/material goods in reparations for the damage done by the War.

To Mexico:

A shitload of money/material goods in reparations for the damage done by the War, in terms of territory they get jack and shit.

Spun off as "independent" nations:

Utah. (Deseret, Republic of) Gets a shitload of money/material goods in reparations for the damage done by the War.

California/Nevada. Gets no money, just lots of foreign "advisers" to ensure their cooperation/compliance and to keep them firmly out of the Yankees' grasp.

TL-191 AU 1918.PNG
 

Faeelin

Banned
The problem is that an Entente victory is only possible if they do so quickly, otherwise they're screwed. This suggests a mild peace, and then... hrm.
 
The problem is that an Entente victory is only possible if they do so quickly, otherwise they're screwed. This suggests a mild peace, and then... hrm.

It also depends on how the European War plays out. The Germans may very well decide that since another Anglo-American war is inevitable, they should avoid being dragged into it, let the Yanks and the Brits fight it out, and go after France and Russia while their ally (Britain) is otherwise busy. The Alliance between the US and Germany could exist on paper only and act only to keep the other members of the Entente from piling on to either of them.

That or the Haber process got butterflied away/delayed (the novels had a few differences from OTL of the period apart from the obvious ones, so Turtledove does know how to use them, it's just that he won't) and Germany went down fast once their nitrate stocks ran out, leaving the US to face the whole of the Entente... Alone.
 
If the US had lost that war, they have been stripped of quite a bit.
They'd lose:

To Britain/Canada:
Maine.
New Hampshire.
Vermont.
Their part of the St. Lawrence valley.
The Niagara region.
Detroit and it's immediate surroundings along the Detroit and St. Clair rivers.
The Upper Peninsula of Michigan.
The Red River valley, much of Minnesota and the rest of the northern half of Dakota.
Montana.
Idaho.
Oregon.
Washington State. (Renamed New Caledonia? or merged with Oregon? Or kept under it's current name as a hint of irony with the Union Jack waving overhead?)

A shitload of money/material goods in reparations for the damage done by the War.

To the CSA:
Maryland.
'West Virgina' returned to Virginia.
Missouri.
A good chunk of downstate Illinois.
New Mexico.
Kansas.

A shitload of money/material goods in reparations for the damage done by the War.

To Mexico:

A shitload of money/material goods in reparations for the damage done by the War, in terms of territory they get jack and shit.

Spun off as "independent" nations:

Utah. (Deseret, Republic of) Gets a shitload of money/material goods in reparations for the damage done by the War.

California/Nevada. Gets no money, just lots of foreign "advisers" to ensure their cooperation/compliance and to keep them firmly out of the Yankees' grasp.

no offense, but I doubt they'ld loose so much.

assuming a simular victory as in OTL, the way i See it:

Canada: Main, Part of Michigan, Washington, OTL's North Dakota, and parts of Idaho, and NY.
CSA: West Virginia, Maryland, OTL's Arizona, Chunks of Illinois, and Missouri. maybe Pueto Rico
Mexico: not much to be honest, maybe part of california.
 

Faeelin

Banned
That or the Haber process got butterflied away/delayed (the novels had a few differences from OTL of the period apart from the obvious ones, so Turtledove does know how to use them, it's just that he won't) and Germany went down fast once their nitrate stocks ran out, leaving the US to face the whole of the Entente... Alone.

It's actually not clear to me that the Allies have naval superiority in the books.
 
It's actually not clear to me that the Allies have naval superiority in the books.

The Entente was strong enough to blockade Germany and it's European allies, but were not strong enough to do the same to the US. While the US was not strong enough either to break that blockade or to impose one of it's own against either the CSA or British Canada. Basically it was a stalemate until France and the CSA folded and then most of the South American countries joined the Alliance bandwagon.
 
no offense, but I doubt they'ld loose so much.

assuming a simular victory as in OTL, the way i See it:

Canada: Main, Part of Michigan, Washington, OTL's North Dakota, and parts of Idaho, and NY.
CSA: West Virginia, Maryland, OTL's Arizona, Chunks of Illinois, and Missouri. maybe Pueto Rico
Mexico: not much to be honest, maybe part of california.

I can't see the U.S. having Puerto Rico, if anything Spain has it.
 
If the Entente wins the war, it won't be because of anything the CSA does... they are outnumbered so badly that for them to 'win', they just need to survive... I'd think the war would go "Britain and France wins in Europe, but still lose a huge number of men in the process; the CSA is barely holding on by it's fingernails, and the US drive into Canada is stalled; when Germany goes down and Britain makes noises about sending troops to Canada, the US makes a surly peace deal..."
 
Fo the CSA to "win" they need to take the capital, which means they have to move fast. Logic at the time was take capital=win war. So that's it. Maybe they get smarter and try two large thursts one to the capital the other up from Kentucky just to spread the enemy out.

If the US falls quickly then the most likely peace, is some land going to the Entente. I can see Main going to Canada, but not entire states like Washington, of the Dakota's. The CSA gets West Virginia, and maybe Maryland. Mostly the US has to pay a lot of money, maybe not have ships, or troops in certain areas.

If the US falls, Germany cans till go at it for many years as OTL showed us. Yet one has to wonder if the CSA will send troops to Europe, or if the war simply ends cause Germany knows all of the British might is now on it. Cause say what you want the USA pulled a lot of resources and men away from Germany.
 
The map proposed is rather... ridiculous.

At most the CS would take New Mexico and Maryland/Delaware. This is assuming Union forces are in Kentucky, Arkansas, Sequoyah and Sonora as OTL. Maybe Missouri, though I doubt it.

The Canadian border wouldn't change at all, though Britain would get the Sandwhich Islands back and likely repirations, while Japan takes Midway and Wake.

Deseret being independent? I just don't see it, even if they share the border with Confederate New Mexico. Heck, the CS would probably figure they'll cause trouble for the US in the next war anyways and leave them under the Yankees thumb.

Size restrictions on the US army, with British and Confederate inspectors having free access to make sure these are enforced.

So the US pays repirations to the CS, Canada, United Kingom and Mexico(in order of greatest to least, meaning Mexico just gets a bone thrown to em).

Japan has to settle for a few islands, unless they want to try raiding the West Coast. Unlikely, as they'll probably be looking towards China and Britain. But the US has been removed from their sphere of influence so it'll be a victory for them.

So the US is knocked back down to it's knees essentially. Not as bad as the Confederacy was in canon TL-191, but pretty bad.

So the questions are, what will happen in Europe now that Canadian and possibly Confederate troops will be reinforcing the Western Front? What will happen to the US now that they've been beaten yet again? Will this give rise to a fascist government? Or will the Socialists have the spark they need to ingnite a revolution?

Might not be a bad TL.
 
Top