The World of Turtledove's In the Presence of Mine Enemies

[cortz#9]

IOTL the SS formed the George Washington Brigade, an SS unit made up of American volunteers mostly POW's who chose to defect.
It never saw action, not enough personal I believe.

 

[MaxGerke01]

IOTL the SS formed the George Washington Brigade, an SS unit made up of American volunteers mostly POW's who chose to defect.
It never saw action, not enough personal I believe.

Lack of interest would likely not be an issue ittl .I shudder to think how many American organizations groups and clubs would also have Nazi approved versions ittl. Nazis and fascists ittl will have been normalized since Charles Lindberghs presidency and that really firmed up during Thurmonds. When they actually got here and took over many Americans who supported them would have no shame in their game....

 

[Jedi Dragon]

Lack of interest would likely not be an issue ittl .I shudder to think how many American organizations groups and clubs would also have Nazi approved versions ittl. Nazis and fascists ittl will have been normalized since Charles Lindberghs presidency and that really firmed up during Thurmonds. When they actually got here and took over many Americans who supported them would have no shame in their game....

More than enough Americans would support the Nazis ITTL. There were plenty of fascists in the 1930's IOTL, and Lindbergh being president would have given them legitimacy. Throw in southerners reacting against the Civil Rights Movement, and there would definitely be Americans signing up for the S.S., or whatever the equivalent is, in large numbers.

 

[Tiro]

IOTL the SS formed the George Washington Brigade, an SS unit made up of American volunteers mostly POW's who chose to defect.
It never saw action, not enough personal I believe.

Horrible to say, a "George Lincoln Rockwell Brigade" (or perhaps a "George Lincoln Rockwell Legion") would have a pretty memorable name, if nothing else - one suspects that Hessian trouncing Mr Washington would be the last person an ascendant Third Reich would name a quisling legion for (at least in a Dismembered States of America).


On a slightly more cheerful note, it occurred to me that it may be amusing to imagine what life was like for the leading light(s) of the American efforts to evade their tributary obligations through sheer obfuscation - a mix of Spy Thriller, Heist Caper and something like THE BIG SHORT, if you will; this does rather beg the question of how The Reich calculates it's Tribute Demands and what methods the former US might mastermind to evade them.

...

Now I have the mental image of a cover for this particular story: COOKING THE BOOKS, with an illustration of an old-timey book burning seen from the perspective of somebody working in the local equivalent to an Internet cafe (I know the internet doesn't exist IN THE PRESENCE OF MINE ENEMIES, but for the sake of an interesting picture I'm assuming something close enough to an Internet cafe does).

We might well be looking through the eyes of this character (I think of them as 'Gordon' but that's not actually their name), so all we see of them are their hands; it might be amusing to imagine this Financial Whiz as a German-American sneak (To contrast with his opposite number, that Good German Officer Heinrich Gimpel).

 

[Tiro]

ALSO, I'm oddly intrigued by Henry IX being described as "deo gratia, King of England, Defender of the Faith" given that the British Union of Fascists is described as having members with both Scottish & English accents (Not to mention an Edinburgh-born leader); while it's possible this is purest Little Englander chauvinism, the fact that the character in question is reading directly from a message makes me wonder if - possibly through pressure from the German Reich - Great Britain itself was split up into England & Scotland once more, with King Henry as their shared sovereign but no other shared Government (Though the BUF might well be in the process of working it's way around that, with a little help from the First Edition).

All the better to 'Divide & Rule' of course.

The absence of Irish accents makes me suspect that the Republic is now an All-Ireland concern (and it's darkly amusing that one of the happiest scenarios for such a unification involves leaving as few gaps for Nazis, home-grown & foreign, to pour in through); one can easily imagine the Irish Republic being one of the few remaining democracies in Western Europe, but one doomed to be as comprehensively poor & obscure as possible ... or suffer (I'd imagine the controversy over Edward VIII resuming the throne might have made a merger between the South & the North a bit easier on the latter's conscience, though not much easier for anyone).


It also occurred to me to wonder if Indians received the status of 'Honorary Aryans' (despite being almost entirely NOT Aryan) because they were too numerous to swallow, too distant from the Reich's heartland to properly occupy and too close to the Japanese sphere to be stamped out as the United States was; I'm also prone to suspect that, no matter how many white minority governments the Reich props up, it controls no part of Africa any farther from the footfall of German troops than the tip of their boot ...

 

[MaxGerke01]

It also occurred to me to wonder if Indians received the status of 'Honorary Aryans' (despite being almost entirely NOT Aryan) because they were too numerous to swallow, too distant from the Reich's heartland to properly occupy and too close to the Japanese sphere to be stamped out as the United States was; I'm also prone to suspect that, no matter how many white minority governments the Reich props up, it controls no part of Africa any farther from the footfall of German troops than the tip of their boot ...

I thought some committed Nazis like Himmler thought they were Aryan or at least close enough to possibly justify it if the Nazis won?
Although in every scenario where this is done with Japan seems to fall apart once the victory is won.It would be interesting to see a scenario where Japan was treated as a real friend and ally-of course thats a scenario where fascist world is all the stronger.Germany and Japan actually seem to have a pretty good relationship tttl at least compared to The Man in The High Castle.

 

[Tiro]

I thought some committed Nazis like Himmler thought they were Aryan or at least close enough to possibly justify it if the Nazis won?

Well given the Third Reich seems to have changed it's mind about the Arab nations at some point it's at least worth considering why Indians did not suffer the same fate (Concerning the Arabs, my best guess is that Himmler wanted to throw his weight around after becoming Fuhrer, did not yet have the machinery to go for the United States as yet and was presumably wanted to seize those juicy, juicy oil reserves under Arabia for the Reich's very own).

*One also gets the mental image of Himmler, budding Indiana Jones villain that he was, getting more than a bit sick of people failing to realise the Awesomeness of - insert fictionalised Norse-Teutonic occult dross here - and convert instanter but eventually decided to confine himself to chewing up the Arab nations (Possibly allowing British forces some role in this endeavour to help improve relations to the point where he could trust Britons outside the BUF not to stab "Uncle Heinie" in the side while he went after the USA & Canada).

I'd bet cash money the Reich began to get serious about cracking down on Christians (quiet or otherwise) after Himmler's Reich nuked New World resistance out of existence (Though I suspect it would be a policy of slow, certain strangulation more than jackboot violence; victorious or not The Reich would almost certainly be too badly overstretched to risk a revolt - or even a quiet resistance - from it's Christian population and problems with overtly Christian neighbours like Spain or Italy**).

**Hence why the policy hadn't gone all the way by the time Himmler did the straw death and would have been outright abandoned after his death; one assumes that Himmler is remembered with some respect, but that there's no real Awe attached to his memory by virtue of increasing personal eccentricities very carefully ignored post-mortem (On a tangentially relayed note, I'll bet that Hitler's death by Parkinson's has been very, very carefully hushed up to boot).

 

[Zoidberg12]

It's been a while since I contributed to this thread, so I figured I would make some more leader lists for the more minor nations in this world.

List of Kings of Sweden

Gustav V (House of Bernadotte) (1907-1950)
Gustav VI Adolf (House of Bernadotte) (1950-1973)
Gustav VII Adolf (House of Bernadotte) (1973-1980) [1]
Carl XVI Gustaf (House of Bernadotte) (1980-1982) [2]

List of Prime Ministers of Sweden

Per Albin Hansson (Social Democrats) (1936-1946)
Tage Earlander (Social Democrats) (1946-1968)
Gunnar Hedlund (Centre) (1968-1969) [3]
Thorbjörn Fälldin (Centre) (1969-1970) [4]
Sven Olof Lindolm (Swedish Socialist Union) (1970-1982)

List of Ledares of Sweden

Sven Olof Lindolm (Swedish Socialist Union) (1982-1989) [5]
Gustaf Ekström (Swedish Socialist Union) (1989-1994)
Göran Assar Oredsson (Swedish Socialist Union) (1994-2010)
Nils Anton Oredsson (Swedish Socialist Union) (2010- ) [6]

[1] After the victory of the German Reich in WWII, Prince Gustaf Adolf of Sweden became more and more of a Nazi sympathizer. He also never died in a plane crash in 1947 like he did IOTL.
[2] Abdicated over Prime Minister Lindholm's ratification of the Swedish Constitution, thus ending the Swedish monarchy. The Swedish Royal Family fled to Switzerland.
[3] As Prime Minister, Hedlund took a more confrontational and less neutral stance towards the German Reich, and as a result, he resigned after the start of WWII in 1969, with the party members fearing a German invasion of Sweden.
[4] As Prime Minister, Fälldin maintained a policy of strict Swedish neutrality in WWIII.
[5] On July 26, 1982, Lindholm ratified the Swedish Constitution, abolished the Swedish Monarchy and established the Swedish State, a unitary one-party fascists state modeled on the German Reich. Unlike the NSDAP and the German Reich, the SSS and the Swedish State followed a more Strasserist variation of National Socialism. While the German Reich and Swedish State became allies, this ideological difference prevented Sweden from becoming absorbed into the Greater Germanic Reich. Lindholm died on September 29, 1989 at the age of 86.
[6] Fictional Character, an alternate son of Göran Assar Oredsson.

 

[MaxGerke01]

[3] As Prime Minister, Hedlund took a more confrontational and less neutral stance towards the German Reich, and as a result, he resigned after the start of WWII in 1969, with the party members fearing a German invasion of Sweden.

WWIII was 1971 wasnt it / Also what happened to Vidkun Quisling ittl ?

 

[Tiro]

At a guess the OG Quisling kept being a little too pro-Norwegian for the Third Reich to accept and was (either blatantly or discretely) kicked to the curb in favour of an even more enthusiastic Yes-man.

Whether this came before or after the formal dissolution of the Norwegian monarchy is an interesting question.

 

[Zoidberg12]

Here are some leader lists for Germany's puppet states. I'll probably make Prime Minister lists for these nations later.

List of Chefs of France

Philippe Pétain (Vichyist/Independent) (1940-1949) [1]
Maxime Weygand (Vichyist/Independent) (1949-1955) [2]
François Darlan (Vichyist/Independent) (1955-1970)
Raoul Salan (Parti Nationale) (1970-1984) [3]
Edmond Jouhaud (Parti Nationale) (1984-1993)
Henri Fenet (Parti Nationale) (1993-2002)
Jean-Marie Le Pen (Parti Nationale) (2002-2015)
Antione Michel Darnand (Parti Nationale) (2015- ) [4]

[1] Resigned due to poor health on May 30, 1949.
[2] Resigned due to poor health on October 14, 1955.
[3] The Parti Nationale was a party established when a number of different fascist, national socialist and far-right French parties merged together. The main ideology of the party was and is the ideology of the Révolution nationale of Chef Pétain.
[4] Fictional Character, an alternate grandson of Joseph Darnand and son of Darnand's OTL son Jean-Philippe Darnand (1926-1998).

List of Presidents of Slovakia

Msgr. Dr. Josef Tiso (Slovak People's Party) (1939-1957)
Štefan Tiso (Slovak People's Party) (1957-1966)
Alexander Mach (Slovak People's Party) (1966-1980)
Pavol Čarnogurský (Slovak People's Party) (1980-1992)
Alexander Dubček (Slovak People's Party) (1992-1996) [1]
Michal Kováč (Slovak People's Party) (1996-2010)
Ján Čarnogurský (Slovak People's Party) (2010- )

[1] Dubček was forced to resign under the threat of a German invasion and annexation of Slovakia (with Slovakia becoming the Protectorate of Slovakia) as a result of his reformist policies.

 

[Zoidberg12]

List of Poglavniks of Croatia

Ante Pavelić (Ustaša–Croatian Revolutionary Movement) (1941-1965)
Stjepan Hefer (Ustaša–HRP) (1965-1973)
Andrija Artuković (Ustaša–HRP) (1973-1987)
Srećko Pšeničnik (Ustaša–HRP) (1987-1999)
Slavko Grubisic (Ustaša–HRP) (1999-2012)
Vjekoslav Sunić (Ustaša–HRP) (2012- )

 

[Eckener]

It's been a while since I contributed to this thread, so I figured I would make some more leader lists for the more minor nations in this world.

List of Kings of Sweden...

Love this effort overall, along with your Slovakian and Croatian lists!

A few things with Sweden though. First, as pointed out by others, the WWIII ITTL starts in 1970 (as a more confined conflict in the Pacific between Japan and the US/AUS/CAN alliance), and really became the short-lived WORLD war in 1971, when the nukes get used and the USA falls to the Nazis. 1969 is definitely the calm before the storm.

Secondly, I'm not convinced that Sweden would go full-tilt fascist, even ITTL. Militaristic, sure, to keep the Nazis at bay. Even somewhat cozy with Berlin, again to maintain independence. But I am not sure they'd chunk the monarchy and go as far as you have them go.

 

[MaxGerke01]

Its been a while but the US had limited nukes-no ICBMs-that got a very few targets in Germany/Nazi Europe and Japan right ?

 

[Eckener]

Its been a while but the US had limited nukes-no ICBMs-that got a very few targets in Germany/Nazi Europe and Japan right ?

Correct.

Well, we never nailed down the hits in Europe. But Japan did get hit with 2 nukes dropped by planes, which is what prompted the Nazi preemptory strike in July 1971.

 

[Zoidberg12]

Love this effort overall, along with your Slovakian and Croatian lists!

A few things with Sweden though. First, as pointed out by others, the WWIII ITTL starts in 1970 (as a more confined conflict in the Pacific between Japan and the US/AUS/CAN alliance), and really became the short-lived WORLD war in 1971, when the nukes get used and the USA falls to the Nazis. 1969 is definitely the calm before the storm.

Secondly, I'm not convinced that Sweden would go full-tilt fascist, even ITTL. Militaristic, sure, to keep the Nazis at bay. Even somewhat cozy with Berlin, again to maintain independence. But I am not sure they'd chunk the monarchy and go as far as you have them go.

Thanks.

Good constructive criticism of Sweden. Mabye Sweden could still be a Kingdom of but with Fascist and NatSoc parties in control of the semi-democratic government?

Anyways, here are some more lists of the leaders of some of Germany's Germanic protectorates.

List of Leiders of the Netherlands

Anton Mussert (NSB) (1940-1952) [1]
Meinoud Rost van Tonningen (NSB) (1952-1967) † [2]
Willem "Wim" Heubel (NSB) (1967-1989) †
Joop Glimmerveen (NSB) (1989-2016)
Cornelius "Kees" Kusters (NSB) (2016- )

[1] Forced to resign due to conflicts with the German government over the status of the sovereignty of the Netherlands, with Mussert wanting the Netherlands or Dietsland to become a German puppet state against the wishes of the German government.
[2] Unofficial leader of the "Volkisch" faction of the NSB, which supported integration of the Netherlands into the Greater Germanic Reich.

List of Reichskommissars of the Netherlands

Arthur Seyß-Inquart (NSDAP) (1940-1964) †
Wilhelm Ritterbusch (NSDAP) (1964-1972)
Hanns Albin Rauter (NSDAP) (1972-1975) †
Herbert Dreher (NSDAP) (1975-1990)
Otto von der Gablentz (NSDAP) (1990-2005)
Waldemar Udo Jöllenbeck (NSDAP) (2005-2012)
Henrik Lodewijk Rouwendal (NSB) (2012- )#

List of Førers of Norway

Vidkun Quisling (Nasonjal Samling) (1942-1959) [1]
Jonas Lie (NS) (1959-1972) †
Rolf Jørgen Fuglesang (NS) (1972-1988) †
Bjørn Østring (NS) (1988-2007) †
Einar Olav Tvedt (NS) (2007-2014)
Arvid Egil Nilsen (NS) (2014- )

[1] Forced to resign due to conflicts with the German government over the status of the sovereignty of the Norway, with Quisling wanting the Norway to become a German puppet state against the wishes of the German government.

List of Reichskommissars of Norway

Josef Terboven (NSDAP) (1940-1968) †
Wilhelm Rediess (NSDAP) (1968-1977) †
Otto Heipertz (NSDAP) (1977-1985)
Harald Hofmann (NSDAP) (1985-1994)
Horst Winkelmann (NSDAP) (1994-2005)
Reinhold Mauch (NSDAP) (2005-2012)
Laurits Tryggve Gulbrandsen (NS) (2012- )#

List of Leders of Denmark

Dr. Frits Clausen (DNSAP) (1948-1957)† [1]
Ejnar Jørgensen (DNSAP) (1959-1969)†
Knud Børge Martinsen (DNSAP) (1969-1982)†
Holger Thor Nielsen (DNSAP) (1982-2005)†
Viggo Riis-Knudsen (DNSAP) (2005- )

[1] The Danish government was disbanded in 1943 as IOTL and in 1948, after the end of the war, RK Danemark was established with Werner Best as Reickskommissar and Dr. Clausen as "Leder of the Danish People."

List of Reichskommissars of Denmark

Werner Best (NSDAP) (1948-1970)
Klaus Simon (NSDAP) (1970-1984)
Rüdiger von Pachelbel (NSDAP) (1984-1992)
Christoph Jessen (1992-2003)
Gottlieb Wähner (NSDAP) (2003-2012)*
Mogens Kristen Skovgaard (DNSAP) (2012- )*#

† = Died in Office
*= Fictional Characters
# = These were the first native Reichskommissars from the protectorates, hired as a part of Führer Heinz Bucklinger's reforms. In addition, each of the penultimate and final reichskommissars on each list are all fictional characters.

 

[MaxGerke01]

Thanks.

Good constructive criticism of Sweden. Mabye Sweden could still be a Kingdom of but with Fascist and NatSoc parties in control of the semi-democratic government?

Anyways, here are some more lists of the leaders of some of Germany's Germanic protectorates.

List of Leiders of the Netherlands

Anton Mussert (NSB) (1940-1952) [1]
Meinoud Rost van Tonningen (NSB) (1952-1967) † [2]
Willem "Wim" Heubel (NSB) (1967-1989) †
Joop Glimmerveen (NSB) (1989-2016)
Cornelius "Kees" Kusters (NSB) (2016- )

[1] Forced to resign due to conflicts with the German government over the status of the sovereignty of the Netherlands, with Mussert wanting the Netherlands or Dietsland to become a German puppet state against the wishes of the German government.
[2] Unofficial leader of the "Volkisch" faction of the NSB, which supported integration of the Netherlands into the Greater Germanic Reich.

List of Reichskommissars of the Netherlands

Arthur Seyß-Inquart (NSDAP) (1940-1964) †
Wilhelm Ritterbusch (NSDAP) (1964-1972)
Hanns Albin Rauter (NSDAP) (1972-1975) †
Herbert Dreher (NSDAP) (1975-1990)
Otto von der Gablentz (NSDAP) (1990-2005)
Waldemar Udo Jöllenbeck (NSDAP) (2005-2012)
Henrik Lodewijk Rouwendal (NSB) (2012- )#

List of Førers of Norway

Vidkun Quisling (Nasonjal Samling) (1942-1959) [1]
Jonas Lie (NS) (1959-1972) †
Rolf Jørgen Fuglesang (NS) (1972-1988) †
Bjørn Østring (NS) (1988-2007) †
Einar Olav Tvedt (NS) (2007-2014)
Arvid Egil Nilsen (NS) (2014- )

[1] Forced to resign due to conflicts with the German government over the status of the sovereignty of the Norway, with Quisling wanting the Norway to become a German puppet state against the wishes of the German government.

List of Reichskommissars of Norway

Josef Terboven (NSDAP) (1940-1968) †
Wilhelm Rediess (NSDAP) (1968-1977) †
Otto Heipertz (NSDAP) (1977-1985)
Harald Hofmann (NSDAP) (1985-1994)
Horst Winkelmann (NSDAP) (1994-2005)
Reinhold Mauch (NSDAP) (2005-2012)
Laurits Tryggve Gulbrandsen (NS) (2012- )#

List of Leders of Denmark

Dr. Frits Clausen (DNSAP) (1948-1957)† [1]
Ejnar Jørgensen (DNSAP) (1959-1969)†
Knud Børge Martinsen (DNSAP) (1969-1982)†
Holger Thor Nielsen (DNSAP) (1982-2005)†
Viggo Riis-Knudsen (DNSAP) (2005- )

[1] The Danish government was disbanded in 1943 as IOTL and in 1948, after the end of the war, RK Danemark was established with Werner Best as Reickskommissar and Dr. Clausen as "Leder of the Danish People."

List of Reichskommissars of Denmark

Werner Best (NSDAP) (1948-1970)
Klaus Simon (NSDAP) (1970-1984)
Rüdiger von Pachelbel (NSDAP) (1984-1992)
Christoph Jessen (1992-2003)
Gottlieb Wähner (NSDAP) (2003-2012)*
Mogens Kristen Skovgaard (DNSAP) (2012- )*#

† = Died in Office
*= Fictional Characters
# = These were the first native Reichskommissars from the protectorates, hired as a part of Führer Heinz Bucklinger's reforms. In addition, each of the penultimate and final reichskommissars on each list are all fictional characters.

When Germany opposed The Netherlands and Norway becoming Nazi puppet states what did they want-fulll annexation to Germany ?

 

[Eckener]

Thanks.

Good constructive criticism of Sweden. Mabye Sweden could still be a Kingdom of but with Fascist and NatSoc parties in control of the semi-democratic government?

Anyways, here are some more lists of the leaders of some of Germany's Germanic protectorates.

List of Leiders of the Netherlands

Anton Mussert...

Not a problem! I think keeping the monarchy intact seems likely (look at Italy and Britain, both fully fascist, one of which is a full-blown puppet of Berlin, and they still have their Kings). As far as the government itself, I believe that the democratic forms have been kept, but all of the political parties have likely slid to the right, with a general tone of "let's not make Germany mad" as their number one policy. A lot of turning blind eyes away in order to keep the Nazis from meddling.

 

[MaxGerke01]

Any chance this tl will get an update or 2 soon or maybe some more names ittl ?

 

[Eckener]

Possibly in June, once I am on summer break - I am a teacher and just have a few more weeks left to go. Also trying to work out some writer's block on this as well. Maybe rework some of the character arcs as well, particularly Alicia's. I like having her in Zurich, but I have it set up for her to leave pretty quick before things really heat up on the big stage, so I'm not sure if I should have her end up staying longer, and how to connect properly with the local Jewish community there, without getting caught.