The World of Turtledove's In the Presence of Mine Enemies

[athgtq16129]

What is South Africa like? of course Apartheid is still in place, but does it still have Bantustans? since there are no other independent black-ruled countries in the continent, and this time there is no international pressure to end Apartheid.

Additionally, since the Axis won WWII then there'd be fewer to no things that occurred IOTL which inspired Apartheid to be put in place, such as the Atlantic charter, the call to end racial discrimination, decolonization, self-determination movements, job opportunities for non-whites, and higher urbanization.

 

[MaxGerke01]

What is South Africa like? of course Apartheid is still in place, but does it still have Bantustans? since there are no other independent black-ruled countries in the continent, and this time there is no international pressure to end Apartheid.

Additionally, since the Axis won WWII then there'd be fewer to no things that occurred IOTL which inspired Apartheid to be put in place, such as the Atlantic charter, the call to end racial discrimination, decolonization, self-determination movements, job opportunities for non-whites, and higher urbanization.

My guess is a charnel house.Maybe a little better than the rest of Axis controlled areas but then again why really ? Perhaps slavery and segregation over extermination ?

 

[Polish Eagle]

My guess is a charnel house.Maybe a little better than the rest of Axis controlled areas but then again why really ? Perhaps slavery and segregation over extermination ?

According to Wiki (I haven't read the book in years, so I'm deferring to it), apartheid is still in place--presumably so blacks can be used as a slave labor force. I might suggest that blacks are better off in Portuguese Angola and Mozambique, and any places where the Reich has directly annexed territory (former Southwest Africa and Cameroon?) are the worst.

 

[MaxGerke01]

According to Wiki (I haven't read the book in years, so I'm deferring to it), apartheid is still in place--presumably so blacks can be used as a slave labor force. I might suggest that blacks are better off in Portuguese Angola and Mozambique, and any places where the Reich has directly annexed territory (former Southwest Africa and Cameroon?) are the worst.

I dont think that Nazi ideology held that all blacks had to be exterminated especially in Africa but would they be brutalized,enslaved and grossly mistreated ? All but certain.The question is would areas of Africa that are not under direct Nazi control treat blacks any better ? You would think so but it would probably be a close thing for the most part. American and Western blacks who were usually mixed race and of course living among whites would be considered a "racial pollution" and as such would be in a places like Europe in general and Germany in particular where their numbers are relatively light on the ground and were often married to Germans just quietly sterilized.But in the US or any other country they might get direct control over with a large number of blacks they would likely be exterminated along with Jews and other "undesirables" as we saw in Europe.

 

[Polish Eagle]

I dont think that Nazi ideology held that all blacks had to be exterminated especially in Africa but would they be brutalized,enslaved and grossly mistreated ? All but certain.The question is would areas of Africa that are not under direct Nazi control treat blacks any better ? You would think so but it would probably be a close thing for the most part. American and Western blacks who were usually mixed race and of course living among whites would be considered a "racial pollution" and as such would be in a places like Europe in general and Germany in particular where their numbers are relatively light on the ground and were often married to Germans just quietly sterilized.But in the US or any other country they might get direct control over with a large number of blacks they would likely be exterminated along with Jews and other "undesirables" as we saw in Europe.

IIRC Brazil is multiracial enough that there are black and mestizo players on their national soccer team, which plays against the Reich. On that basis, I think there is room for non-German regions of Africa, especially the rest of the "Lusosphere," to be better.

 

[Tiro]

So, I'm not sure that the American's would actually celebrate Hitler's birthday directly. The US is in this weird spot where it is part of the Germanic Empire but not part of the Reich proper. There might be parties and things held by some German-American organizations, and probably galas in Omaha at the Imperial Embassy and elsewhere, but maybe it isn't a formal official holiday.

Thanksgiving definitely continues, albeit through a new lens for sure.

I also think that southern states would likely put greater glory and emphasis on the Confederacy, but I don't think you would see this be projected outside that region too much. Maybe Lee and Stonewall Jackson get rehabilitated into national heroes to some extent. There's going to be a dance between glorifying the racist elements of the Confederacy while simultaneously downplaying the fact that they did rebel against the Federal Government.

Currency....
$1 = Washington
$2 = Jefferson
$5 = ... Lincoln would be dropped I think. Calhoun might be here?
$10 = Hamilton?
$20 = Jackson (for sure)
$50 = Grant....hmm. Maybe replaced by Lee?
$100 = Franklin...maybe. He'd been on there for quite some time by that point.
$500 = went out of print in the 1940s, recalled in the 1960s, Had William McKinnley. I see these getting reissued as inflation skyrockets and there is a greater need for higher denominations. Maybe this is where Lucky Lindy goes?

Coins:
1¢ = Drop Lincoln. Either return to the Indian Head Cent, or an American Eagle
5¢ = Jefferson?
10¢ = Goddess of Liberty?
25¢ = Washington
50¢ = "Walking Liberty" was the last design from OTL (after that was Franklin, then Kennedy).
1$ = Morgan/Peace designs.

The more I think about it, I could see the coins all going to new designs to support concepts of the state, so instead of having any former Leaders on it (save maybe Washington on the Quarter..that tradition goes back a long ways), the coins have symbols like the eagle, the torch, etc.

As for restaurants...
- I could see places near German bases having a chain of German food restaurants taking off and being regionally successful.
- In California, where the Japanese have a stronger presence, I could see certain Japanese eateries taking off.

This comes very, very late in the day but I can definitely imagine the Omaha Regime placing a fasces (the axe in a bundle of rods which was both a symbol of the Roman Republic and the namesake of Fascism), probably employing it as a substitute for the Torch of Liberty in regime symbolism; I'm also inclined to believe that 'Liberty' would probably be replaced by 'Columbia'.

I also tend to doubt that Doctor Franklin would be un-personed; while a notorious Francophile, I'm not sure his attitudes on Race were progressive enough to mark him out as actively Dangerous (Also, I'm fairly sure his 'Join or Die' cartoon would get a brand new lease on life in the Omaha regime, probably getting an update for the sake of serving as an alternative to the Gadsden flag).

One would also suggest that Thomas Woodrow Wilson might make an appearance on 'Omaha dollars' (If nothing else Wilson would be more than racist enough to be acceptable to a Nazi puppet republic and putting him on a little-used bill might be the sort of passive-aggressive gesture such a body might regard as a show of spirit, however paltry).

Also, there's no Earthly way anyone would put James Buchanan on their currency; the only reason he's not a laughing stock is that his failures are so d--- depressing (I'm also dubious about a Federal Government putting Lee or Thomas Jackson on their currency; the Omaha Regime has enough trouble already without spreading the notion that all the Cool Kids play 'Secession'!).

 

[MaxGerke01]

This comes very, very late in the day but I can definitely imagine the Omaha Regime placing a fasces (the axe in a bundle of rods which was both a symbol of the Roman Republic and the namesake of Fascism), probably employing it as a substitute for the Torch of Liberty in regime symbolism; I'm also inclined to believe that 'Liberty' would probably be replaced by 'Columbia'.

I also tend to doubt that Doctor Franklin would be un-personed; while a notorious Francophile, I'm not sure his attitudes on Race were progressive enough to mark him out as actively Dangerous (Also, I'm fairly sure his 'Join or Die' cartoon would get a brand new lease on life in the Omaha regime, probably getting an update for the sake of serving as an alternative to the Gadsden flag).

One would also suggest that Thomas Woodrow Wilson might make an appearance on 'Omaha dollars' (If nothing else Wilson would be more than racist enough to be acceptable to a Nazi puppet republic and putting him on a little-used bill might be the sort of passive-aggressive gesture such a body might regard as a show of spirit, however paltry).

Also, there's no Earthly way anyone would put James Buchanan on their currency; the only reason he's not a laughing stock is that his failures are so d--- depressing (I'm also dubious about a Federal Government putting Lee or Thomas Jackson on their currency; the Omaha Regime has enough trouble already without spreading the notion that all the Cool Kids play 'Secession'!).

There is that but Thurmond would most likely throw the South at least one bone.I could see Woodrow Wilson instead of Ben Franklin but they would want at least one bonafide Confederate in there just because.After all if any section of the "USA" would want to secede its still probably the South.

 

[Tiro]

There is that but Thurmond would most likely throw the South at least one bone.I could see Woodrow Wilson instead of Ben Franklin but they would want at least one bonafide Confederate in there just because.After all if any section of the "USA" would want to secede its still probably the South.

Hum ... perhaps the Omaha Regime should bring in a compromise candidate like Fitzhugh Lee or Joseph Wheeler, who fought with the Confederate States army but also served with the rank of General in the US Army of the Spanish-American War? (In other words a much more edifying example, as Southrons who made their honourable peace with the United States AND as men who came back from crushing defeat to win some glory).

 

[Tiro]

Also, I would like to point out that while the Deep South (at least the blue-eyed white devil portion of same) would almost certainly find Nazi racial politics quite acceptable, especially as an alternative to the Civil Rights Movement, it's by no means a given that they would accept a foreign occupation with quite the degree of equanimity this thread suggests (As I understand it, being of German 'Dutch' descent could be downright dangerous in parts of the Southland, both before & after the Civil War; it also bears pointing out that the South has always been the most outspokenly go their own way part of the United States of America).

My suggestion would be making it more clear that Southern support for the Omaha regime has always been as much a challenge as a blessing, rather than a given (especially when it comes to getting to pay tribute and keeping them from bushwhacking German occupation troops); going by Dixie's conduct after the American Civil War, if any part of the United States can be guaranteed to know how to subvert an occupying authority (by hook & by crook) it's the Southland.

 

[MaxGerke01]

Also, I would like to point out that while the Deep South (at least the blue-eyed white devil portion of same) would almost certainly find Nazi racial politics quite acceptable, especially as an alternative to the Civil Rights Movement, it's by no means a given that they would accept a foreign occupation with quite the degree of equanimity this thread suggests (As I understand it, being of German 'Dutch' descent could be downright dangerous in parts of the Southland, both before & after the Civil War; it also bears pointing out that the South has always been the most outspokenly go their own way part of the United States of America).

My suggestion would be making it more clear that Southern support for the Omaha regime has always been as much a challenge as a blessing, rather than a given (especially when it comes to getting to pay tribute and keeping them from bushwhacking German occupation troops); going by Dixie's conduct after the American Civil War, if any part of the United States can be guaranteed to know how to subvert an occupying authority (by hook & by crook) it's the Southland.

I agree with all that BUT ittl I think its very possible that the South is so enamored with the former that it overlooks the latter.After all who would bring those Nazi racial policies to America but the Nazis ? In fact things were moving decidedly in the other direction in the US before the Nazis invaded and turned it 360 degrees.I cant imagine a region of the US with more homegrown Nazi love for that very reason. In the Man in the High Castle novel the Germans allow the CSA to be re-established-under their control of course-so something like that might be done here although HT doesnt say so of course.

 

[Tiro]

While an element in the South (and not the better elements) would undoubtedly welcome any regime that would put African Americans “in their place” I think it’s quite possible to overstate the degree to which Sotherners would welcome politics of annihilation with unqualified joy - especially as dispensed by a Foreign Conqueror.

The South welcomes Jim Crow, but at least some (even in Dixieland) might well balk at Attila the Hun … (especially when he comes demanding tribute aka “taxes, only more so”).

 

[Tiro]

Also, it bears pointing out that it was the Midwest which seems to have been the hub of pro-German & isolationist sentiment in our own history, rather than the South.

 

[MaxGerke01]

Also, it bears pointing out that it was the Midwest which seems to have been the hub of pro-German & isolationist sentiment in our own history, rather than the South.

And Omaha is where they allow the occupationist regimes capital to be established. The Nazis would find Americans willing to help all over but I would say the most in the South followed by Midwest and Mountain West and then the East and West Coasts-both of which ittl were also hit the hardest by the Nazi nuclear attack. I hope the Nazis found a lot of resistance with rounding up the black and Jewish populations in those areas. I would hope they would in the South and elsewhere as well but Im sadly dubious about that...

 

[Tiro]

I'd bet the Germans would meet with a fair amount of bushwhacking in the South even if locals don't feel much like standing up for the rights of their Black and/or Jewish fellow citizens - in fact given the American love of personal firepower and tendency to resent the enforcement of Government authority, I'd suspect there would be a lot of guerrilla activity in the first years after WWIII.

 

[MaxGerke01]

I'd bet the Germans would meet with a fair amount of bushwhacking in the South even if locals don't feel much like standing up for the rights of their Black and/or Jewish fellow citizens - in fact given the American love of personal firepower and tendency to resent the enforcement of Government authority, I'd suspect there would be a lot of guerrilla activity in the first years after WWIII.

But thats coming mainly from people there who actually oppose what the Nazis are doing-like mainly ex US military people ? The average person who supports what the Nazis are doing and is also fearful of reprisals against family and or friends does nothing. Or in the case of the strong supporters actually joins the American SS or whatever groups the Nazis kick off along those lines ?

 

[Tiro]

Please note - "what the Nazis are doing" is acting as a force of foreign invaders. No matter how much some Americans may approve of "putting coloured folk in their place" there's no guarantee that those Americans will automatically approve of an Occupying Force being the ones to do it (Quite possibly disapproving of their presence, if not their actions, to the point where they take up arms against the Wehrmacht - at least during the first years of the Occupation).

Basically I'm trying to point out that the situation on the ground in those early years of America's subjugation is going to be more complicated than "Hates Blacks = Supports Nazis".

 

[Tiro]

I know that the local successor to the United States of America has already received a name, but an alternative occurred to me today and I produce it here for your amusement: the 'Greater America Union' or GAU.

No, that allusion to the eponymous dominion of Gauleiters is not an accident.

 

[MaxGerke01]

Please note - "what the Nazis are doing" is acting as a force of foreign invaders. No matter how much some Americans may approve of "putting coloured folk in their place" there's no guarantee that those Americans will automatically approve of an Occupying Force being the ones to do it (Quite possibly disapproving of their presence, if not their actions, to the point where they take up arms against the Wehrmacht - at least during the first years of the Occupation).

Basically I'm trying to point out that the situation on the ground in those early years of America's subjugation is going to be more complicated than "Hates Blacks = Supports Nazis".

I really get what you are saying BUT I think we would see it proven less than true especially in the South.For one thing the Nazis have probably been making it clear they were gunning for America since the late 1950s .Like minded people in the US put their hopes in Thurmond and they were disappointed when things started going the other way.The Nazis come and give them everything they want so that will engender some love and loyalty. Its true they dont like the foreign occupation aspect of it but that is alleviated by the fact that those troops and their American backers have no issue with them and have a big issue with people they despise.
I did wonder if perhaps more "moderate " Southerners and others would approach the Nazis and say hey dont kill them all -enslave them or send them back to Africa but that falls on deaf ears because the Nazis and their supporters are quite happy to see them die.
I also think there were would be a sizable American participation in the Nazi genocide .They probably kick off an American SS or something like it for that express purpose.
The real disgruntlement with the German presence comes much later as it does in Germany with the hardcore Nazis. It has the whole hey we are good Aryans and we can govern ourselves grievance to it- sadly nothing about the horrors the Nazis and their backers did during and after WW3 from the vast majority.

 

[Tiro]

I don't disagree; I was actually trying to puzzle out what an All-American version of the SS might look like IN THE PRESENCE OF MINE ENEMIES earlier today, and tend to imagine that it would be a Paramilitary Police unit with a national jurisdiction (A uniformed police unit; mental image of special forces-type berets, combat boots, military-type fatigues - albeit possibly in police blue, rather than camouflage - with police badges, handcuffs & truncheons; weaponry certainly military-grade, equipment a mix of police & military*).

Tactics probably a mix of SWAT & Special Forces counter-insurgency; very much a "Bigger hammer" sort of service; not quite sure what to call them, but the names "Police Rangers" "National Police Service" "Special Police Service" "Unity Police" "Freedom Guard" and "All-America Police" have occurred to me.

*Note that this would be absurdly well-armed by the standards of 1970s US police, if not by the standards of modern American police services.

 

[MaxGerke01]

I don't disagree; I was actually trying to puzzle out what an All-American version of the SS might look like IN THE PRESENCE OF MINE ENEMIES earlier today, and tend to imagine that it would be a Paramilitary Police unit with a national jurisdiction (A uniformed police unit; mental image of special forces-type berets, combat boots, military-type fatigues - albeit possibly in police blue, rather than camouflage - with police badges, handcuffs & truncheons; weaponry certainly military-grade, equipment a mix of police & military*).

Tactics probably a mix of SWAT & Special Forces counter-insurgency; very much a "Bigger hammer" sort of service; not quite sure what to call them, but the names "Police Rangers" "National Police Service" "Special Police Service" "Unity Police" "Freedom Guard" and "All-America Police" have occurred to me.

*Note that this would be absurdly well-armed by the standards of 1970s US police, if not by the standards of modern American police services.

I think the Nazis were more than savvy enough to know they elicit even more volunteers when they make the endeavor more familiar.What is familiar in Europe looks and acts different in the US.It also makes it very easy for these thugs to claim that are just keeping law and order and cleaning the US up in the process. Actually really makes me angry to think that the vast majority who directly participated in such atrocities are dead or too old to be held fully accountable when the time came BUT then again they are a generation or 2 younger than OTL WW2 generation so a fair number of them should still be there in the 2020s and 2030s =let em have it whenever possible....