The World of Turtledove's In the Presence of Mine Enemies

So in addition to American military members there were likely some American civilians who were outside of the US when disaster struck in July 1971. They would have benn unlikely to willingly return especially if they were black ,Jewish or very liberal,Is there an exiled American community of sorts anywhere ? Brazil seems likely but anywhere else ?

Oh man I hadn't even thought of that, but you're bound to be right. I'm not sure about Brazil though. It's possible, but it would have to be low-key I think. Brazil is friendly to the fascist states and isn't likely to be all that democratic itself ITTL. Switzerland seems like a likely candidate, again it would be low-key but there I'd imagine. Not sure about other places but somewhere in South America seems likely.
Any updates on names soon ?

Honestly hit a bit of a writer's block on that list, felt I was just falling too easily into "life before WWIII was basically the same as OTL, and they died by 1975 (or collaborated and lived to about their OTL death date" pattern which isn't really interesting.

If you'd like to take a stab at those that remain, I wouldn't mind. Might help get the creative juices going for an update to the main story.
Honestly hit a bit of a writer's block on that list, felt I was just falling too easily into "life before WWIII was basically the same as OTL, and they died by 1975 (or collaborated and lived to about their OTL death date" pattern which isn't really interesting.

If you'd like to take a stab at those that remain, I wouldn't mind. Might help get the creative juices going for an update to the main story.
I actually think that you have been doing a great job with them. IF some of their fates seem repetitive that adly fits with the reality of who they were ittl....

Deleted member 103950

I recently found out about one of Turtledoves other works. Shtetl Days. Which could plausibly be in the future of this timeline, or at least a version of it.

I recently found out about one of Turtledoves other works. Shtetl Days. Which could plausibly be in the future of this timeline, or at l hope this threast a version of it.

Well the Reich ittl seems too extreme to even allow something as liberal as the mock shtetls.

I hope this thread isnt dead yet .
I recently found out about one of Turtledoves other works. Shtetl Days. Which could plausibly be in the future of this timeline, or at least a version of it.

Well the Reich ittl seems too extreme to even allow something as liberal as the mock shtetls.

I hope this thread isnt dead yet .

I've read Shtetl Days, it's a great story. I think Max might be right though, I'm not sure that the mock shtetls like in the story would be able to exist ITTL. But I could be convinced otherwise.
The more I think about it, I wonder how plantations in the USA might do something similar with slaves (people in blackface...or a few "prisoners" being kept and basically turned back into slaves for the historic plantations - a terrifying thought).

And no, the thread is not dead. I've just been trying (and failing) to balance work on multiple projects at once. Factor in being a little consumed by recent real-world events that kinda hampered down my own creative flow.
"What happened to...." List, Part 7
Here are a few more names for you all:

  • Rod Serling - Considered one of the great TV writers of the pre-War era, and is particularly remembered for his science-fiction show Afterlight, having individual episodes telling stories that wrapped science-fiction themes with pressing issues of the day. The show aired from 1964-1970. Serling was working on new projects when WWIII broke out. He attempted to lay low, but was arrested in 1973 and sentenced to a hard labor camp in South Dakota, where he died in 1974.
  • Dan Rather - Texan newsman who was the chief TV anchor for ABC’s news affiliate in Houston from 1960-1964, before transferring to New York City working for ABC’s main studio, becoming a major correspondent by the end of the decade. Was in DC covering the war news when the city was hit by the Nazi bomb, and died.
  • Isaac Asimov - Scientist and science fiction writer. Was living in New York City during the outbreak of the War. Was unable to escape before the siege began. Died sometime in 1972, exact date was unknown. Being Jewish, his name was on several lists, and his works were banned by the Thurmond government in 1974. In recent years, his works have started making a come-back on the underground book lists and can be found in black market book shops.
  • Hugh Hefner - Founder of Playboy magazine, he was arrested in 1972 and his magazine was banned (deemed “degenerate”). Hefner was sentenced to ten years hard labor in Nevada. Released in 1982, he relocated to Phoenix, where he opened and maintained a camera shop. He was arrested in 1985 for attempting to start an underground version of his earlier publication. Seen as a repeat offender and a threat to public order, he was executed later that same year.
  • Andy Warhol - Career was largely similar to OTL. When the war broke out, Warhol was in New York City. He escaped before the end of the siege and lived in hiding with friends in upstate New York until he was captured in 1975, at which point he was sentenced to 25 years hard labor in South Dakota. While at the labor camp, he was murdered by the guards (who tended to be extra cruel towards LGBT inmates). His death occurred in 1977.
  • Julia Child - Unknown ITTL. She did not serve in OSS ITTL (which is how she met her husband, who introduced her to French cuisine), instead remaining in New York for awhile as a copy-editor, before returning home to California, where she went on to get her masters and PhD in History. Was a professor at UCLA when the war broke out. She survived the war, and continued to teach until 1980, when she resigned rather than go into new, pro-Nazi research. She died in 1999 of natural causes.
So a while ago Anarcho Occultist did a Greater German Reich(Earth X) page encompassing the "Axis Victory in World War II trope in fiction on His World We Weave Timeline. In the Presence of Mine Enemies fits into this. I've added a few things, mostly the Superhero elements from the DC Comics Earth X.

Greater German Reich(Earth X)
ERROR: Could not find “CountryFiles/Germany/Earth One.” Retrieving substitution…


FILE RETRIEVED: CounryFiles/Germany2012/EarthX

220px-Flag of German Reich 1935–1945 (reverse).svg
Greater German Reich

Other Names:
Germany, Germania, Neue Europa, the Reich, Nazi Germany, Greater Nazi Reich,

Notable Leaders:

Of Germany and Europe:
Adolf Hitler, Vandal Savage, Martin Borrman, Joseph Goebbels, Reinhard Heydrich, Martin Heussman, Heinrich Himmler, Reinhard Heydrich, Ernst Stavro Blofeld, Kurt Haldweim ,Heinz Buckliger, Rolf Stolle.

Of America: George Lincoln Rockwell, John Smith, Vandal Savage, Oliver Queen II,


Of Germany:

Of America: New York City

Population: 170,000,000

Government Type: Totalitarian fascist dictatorship

Language(s): German, English (minority)

Currency: Reichsmark (1 Reichsmark=50 USD)

Religion: Hitlerism, Nordic Neopaganism, Catholicism, Protestantism (minority)

Very resource-directed and largely built on manufacturing and exploitation. Germany practices corporatist economic policies and tends to partner closely with large firms to pursue state interests. Individuals belonging to “lesser” races are used for slave labor (though thanks to the longtime presence of advanced robotics, the need for slave labor has dropped drastically). Germany’s status as the dominant world power additionally enables favorable terms for trade with other nations (though Japan has managed to hold its own in negotiations).

Germany has a long history, extending all the way back to the barbarians of the region who remained a thorn in the side of the Roman Empire centuries prior. For most of its history, Germany was made up of small, semi-independent states. These states would occasionally converge under unions such as the Holy Roman Empire created by Charlemagne or the United States of Europe created by the temporally displaced town of Granzville in the 17th century. However, for much of history, the country failed to unify. It would take until the 19th century for Germany to be unified thanks to the leadership of Otto Von Bismarck. Bismarck implemented a modernization program that successfully allowed Germany to defeat France and Ruritania to solidify its borders and create the steam technology that formed the backbone of their military. Germany would end the 19th century as a premier power, thanks in part to being relatively untouched by the Mollusc invasion of 1898. Germany was emboldened by this position into launching an attempted invasion of America in 1907 and, under Prince Karl Albert, launching the War in the Air against Britain, the USA, Russia and France. Prince Karl Albert would not survive the war. While that war ended in a peace of exhaustion, Germany would go on to be a key participant in the First World War. During the war, a pod carrying a small child crashed into the German countryside and was discovered to have powers and abilities far beyond those of mortal men but this came too late and was too little to effect the outcome. In spite of the country’s martial prowess, they would be defeated and, in the peace talks, humiliated.

Postwar Germany formed a government dubbed the Weimar Republic and faced instability even from the day it was founded. This only increased as the world economy plunged into a depression and radical movements quickly gained traction, Most notably the fascist Nazi Party of Adolf Hitler. Hitler would be made Chancellor of Germany following the 1933 elections and quickly set himself up as the dictator of Germany. Throughout the 1930’s, Hitler exploited France and Britain’s fears of another war to roll back the Treaty of Versailles, rebuild Germany’s army and make himself dictator. He additionally dispatched agents abroad in search of occult objects that could help the new Third Reich—his operatives failed to acquire the Ark of the Convenant and the Holy Grail from Egypt but succeeded in retrieving dinosaur DNA from places like Maple White Land and Pecullidar. Occult texts like the Necronomicon were also acquired thanks to the partnership Hitler formed with the dark wizards Gellert Grindelwald and Heinrich Kemmler. Dr. Josef Merkwurdgliebe’s successful completion of a nuclear weapon in Ixania would mean Germany was finally ready to attack. When the time came Hitler invaded Osterlich.

However Nazi Germany would have another secret weapon: Ubermencsh(Overman). An alien who had grown up in the postwar Germany, Ubermench had lived as a working man and saw first hand German mistreatment after the war and was among many who grew to share the ideals of Hitler's Nazi Party. Ubermensch aided in the conquest of Europe with Britain and France having no such Superhumans. This was made more apparent when Ubermensch aided in the conquest of France, killing its native superhuman Le Nycatalope and destroying several resistance movements in the country. The rest of Europe fell under siege by masses of robots created by Wilhelm Strasse. The assault on the Soviet Union was held back only by Russia's own hero Red Star, who could manipulate a strange red Radiation which kept Overman at bay.

To the west, Britain’s forces proved no match for the dark wizards (who increased in number thanks to the conversion of the Durmstrang Institute into an academy that made young wizards fanatical Nazis) or the vampiric legions of the Millennium Group. The Vampire Alucard and Vampire Hunter Walter C. Dornez would hold off these forces for the most part but Nazi Wizards would infiltrate England through Hogwarts in Scotland once Headmaster Albus Dumbledore was killed by Grindelwald and Kemmler with the aid of Nazi Soldiers and weapons. The Nazi allied Wizards were also aware of the Amazons of Themyscira and when Mussolinii failed to conquer Greece, Kemmler visited Themyscira, who chose to remain neutral.

Albrecht Krieger 01
German weaponry on the battlefield was augmented by alien tech acquired by Johann Schmidt’s HYDRA organization and Stephen Krieger’s trips into the future, who claimed the Nazis would be victorious. In 1941, the Japanese attacked Pearl Harbor, and seized Hawaii, bringing America into the war. American Superheroes such as Batman would now became involved. While Abraham Erskine cracked the Super soldier serum, he would be assassinated by a Hydra agent soon after, leaving the formula lost, and leading Hydra to break away from Nazi Germany. Germany meanwhile created Ubermensch II(or Masters Man) as well as Captain Nazi(Albrecht Krieger). The three known Nazi Superhumen would then engage Russia's sole defender Red Star, in a battle in which he would explode, killing himself, Mastersman and injuring Captain Nazi and Overman. With Russia undefended against Superhuman threats, Stalin orchestrated a break out of the contained alien Chimera, which devastated Europe, with the side effect of devastating Britain as well. However the superhuman Albrecht Krieger would help to turn the tide along with a recovered Overman.

On May 30th 1942, an alien race invaded Earth but was opposed in South America by Utopia and Hugo Danner's superhuman society, the Sons of Dawn while Germany's ally Draka fought the invaders in Africa. Germany, having been at war the longest, would be the most competent at fighting back the alien invaders with aid of several of their own allied races such as a White skinned Alien Race known as the Na'kuhl and a shapeshifting branch of the Chitauri, who provided them with advanced technology. US forces managed to begin to push Nazi forces out of Britain before Germany, through the power of blood magic, managed to summon and bind embodiments of the Norse pantheon to serve Germany. Themyscira was convinced to intervene with the greek Gods being significantly weaker than their Norse counterparts due to their lack of followers and sacrifices. This forced the Greek Gods to release Kratos from the underworld, who reluctantly agreed to help. Kratos would fall but convince his son adopted by the norse Gods, Loki, to rebel and help the Americans. When it was explained to Hitler by Kemmler the Greek Gods were powered by worshippers, Germany nuked Themyscira, causing the Greek gods, to vanish. The Norse Gods began to turn the tide against America's Superheroes and the Hellsing Organization members Alucard and Walter in Britain. The Norse Gods could regenerate if killed by superhumans such as members of the Justice Society of America. Eventually, American spies uncovered the nature of the Norse Gods and began to worship them themselves using prisoners in Japanese internment camps. The Norse Gods thus became unpredictable, attacking either side and the research into their summoning was discontinued by both sides

892b7-Wolfenstein-The-New-Order-E3-2013-Gameplay-Trailer 1
With the loss of the Norse Gods, the Allies launched an attempted invasion of Normandy. However at this time, Hitler was removed from power and cryogenically frozen and replaced by the immortal Vandal Savage. An attempt to kill Savage was made by destroying a theatre in an explosion showing the Nazi Propaganda film Nation's Pride, but he survived due to his immortality. Savage had received information from his future self, providing him with schematics for advanced weaponry and technology and knowledge of the surprise D-Day invasion. The Allies were caught off guard with an attack on the US East Coast, while D-Day failed thanks to Nazi Dinosaurs and new experimental planes. Armies that managed to reach Germany were held back by the newly created Ubers, allowing more superhumans to the front following the demise of the Justice Society to the Norse Gods, which left very few on the American side. The near superhuman soldier and expert Nazi Killer B.J.Blazkowicz was put into a coma by an explosion triggered by Wilhelm Strasse. At this point, US forces were not only pushed out of Europe, but all the way back to North America and forced to take on a defensive footing. America had dismantled its Nuclear program under Franklin Delano Roosevelt, who was elected on a platform with help from Activist Edith Keeler. President Roosevelt was then assassinated in 1933 and his successors were unable to lead America out of the Great Depression. This meant America couldn't rebuild the project fast enough. While given enough time the USA might have been able to survive, the final blow came. Captain America made an attempt to prevent the Red Skull from attacking American cities with Nukes. Due to the interference of the Nazi Alligned Thor, Captain America was thrown into the ocean. Metropolis and Washington DC were destroyed in nuclear attacks and US President Grant Matthews was forced to surrender to Germany. The War officially ended in 1947.

Postwar, Germany initially split the occupation of the US with Japan, creating a buffer zone in the middle of the defeated United States between the Japanese-ruled West Coast and the German-administered East. Postwar Germany would have to contend with a number of issues. Joseph Mengele’s experiments in reanimation successfully recreated Trioxin, but unfortunately had the side effect of sparking major zombie outbreaks across Europe as the undead proved difficult to control. Resistance to German rule did not fully dissipate either, as some thought-to-be-deceased enemies like BJ Blackowicz and Henry Jones, Jr. would reemerge to challenge the Reich. The Draka launched an attempted invasion in 1951, only stymied by the second invasion of the Chimera into Pretoria. Nazi occupied America faced alien invasions and some Kaiju attacks. The alien Klaatu arrived on earth and demonstrated his powers, attempting to convince the Nazis by force to give up their Nuclear weapons. Japan’s existence as a rival power bloc likewise was difficult to reconcile with German ideology, leading to a brief occupation of Japan from 1959 to 1961, when Germany withdrew due to increasing overstretch.

The JLAxis was formed around this time, led by Overman. Vandal Savage was deemed too dangerous to remain in power due to his immortality by the Nazi party members and the JLAxis were sent to kill him if possible and if not then dispose of him in such a way that he would no longer pose a threat. Throughout this time rebel movements in the independently run US continued, led by the Gotham based hero Batman and Captain America, though Captain America had survived, he had suffered great injury and radiation sickness from the Atom blast he failed to prevent. His costume torn and now balding due to radiation, only the pants of his costume remained, he now wore a torn and burned American Flag from the Capitol across his chest and had carved an "A" on his forehead. After the defeat of Vandal Savage by the JLAxis. Hitler was unfrozen. Palace intrigue in Berlin also took its toll, as the various ranks of Nazi leadership vied for power. Hitler's physical and mental health had begun to deteriorate during the war and the freezing, leading to the once competent leader who conquered most of Europe to make irrational decisions, and suffering from Syphilis. There was now the question of who should act as the New Fuhrer with Martin Borrman being elected. However other Nazi Leaders would continue to fight for control. After the withdrawal from Japan, factions arose between those favoring the destruction of the country and tolerating its existence.

The grasshopper lies heavy by alternatehistorian-d93cz9a
In 1962, a popular book, Hawthorne Abendsen's The Grasshopper Lies Heavy was published. depicting an Allied victory in World War II. It was banned in German occupied territory but not in Neutral states and in the Japanese controlled Pacific States, Japan having gained a strange cultural fascination with America. At this time, Joseph Goebbels became Chancellor of Germany, though it would not last long as a coup would be launched by Reinhard Heydrich, who killed Goebbels and took his place. This did not last long either as Hitler became aware of Heydrich plotting his assassination and thwarted the plan. At around this time rumors spread of a Newsreel, or in some cases a film adaptation of The Grasshopper Lies Heavy that was out there. Martin Heussman (the architect behind the ill-fated Atlantropa project that drained the Mediterranean Sea) poisoned the elderly Hitler and took the reins of the Reich. Though by this point Nazi Germany had cloned Hitler in Brazil secretly in the hope he would return to power. Heussman's plan for war with Japan was thwarted by SS Oberguppenfuhrer John Smith, who revealed his treason to Reichsführer-SS Heinrich Himmler. In the aftermath, the Reich was taken over by more moderate figures. Himmler ascended to Furher and a new era of peace between Germany and Japan started. Japan meanwhile had interactions of its own with another universe and using stolen Nuclear bomb tapes from the Americans of the timeline in which the allies were victorious, fooled the Germans into believing they had access to nuclear bombs.

The Multiversity Mastermen
The Nazi government of America led by George Lincoln Rockwell, began plans for a grand celebration. This included the creation of a Propaganda project named Jahr Null ("Year Zero") to "erase" the history of the former United States. This included demolishing the Lincoln Memorial; melting the Liberty Bell and reshaping it into a swastika; and destroying the Statue of Liberty (which was to be replaced by a statue of John and Thomas Smith named "The New Colossus"). However, Smith had Rockwell killed, gaining his position of Reichsmarschall. Dr. Joseph Mengele discovered a woman that had died and returned alive from another world and a machine allowing travel to other Universes was created. Himmler declared the beginning of Jahr Null with the Luftwaffe's bombing of the Statue of Liberty, which incited chaos in New York City. During the chaos, A sniper shot Himmler.

Uncle Sam, a resistance Leader who was the physical embodiment of American patriotism itself, led a Super group called the Freedom Fighters into attacking the JLAxis, causing their orbital Headquarters, the Watchtower satellite to come crashing down on Germany, killing everyone in Berlin for Overman, when Overman recovered the remains of his cousin Overgirl, rather than attempt to rule the Reich himself, he admitted that he had enough, already disillusioned about his mission and retired, flying off into space to never be seen again.

In 1963, a mass uprising occurred in the United States that successfully pushed out the German administration and reunified with the Rocky Mountain States. A new government was organized that surprisingly ended up under the leadership of Joseph P.Kennedy, a former US government official who supported a policy of independence but peace with Germany. The new German Fuhrer Ernst Stavro Blofeld, himself a moderate figure, sought to encourage this effort and to do so attempted to hide the Nazis’ past atrocities in Europe from the Americans. Those who had overseen the Holocaust were hunted down and executed. However, the attempt to reach a détente were thwarted when the truth about the Holocaust was revealed by an American journalist. Kennedy was ousted and a new government headed by former resistance member Andy Taylor came to power on a promise of hardline opposition to the Reich. This ultimately marked the beginning of a tense standoff with the new USA and with Japan.

Fatherland's 1964 Europe
Germany remained a preeminent power. Would-be invaders from the Visitors to the Fithp to the Yeerks failed to breach German defenses. German physicists attempted to rebuild the “gateway to the multiverse” shut down in the 1960’s by US spies. However, problems remained in place for Germany. The economy was stagnant and in many cases Japan’s technology was more cutting edge than Germany’s. The lack of remaining scapegoats for any issues the nation faced made Germany’s government struggle to handle internal dissatisfaction. Meanwhile, small groups of persecuted minorities survived despite the efforts of Germany’s rulers who hunted Jews and other hated groups to the ends of the Earth (in some cases including the jungles of Madagascar and ruins of Angkor Wat). The metahuman Erik Lensherr up until his death managed to defend a relatively sizeable village of Jews in one of the more empty parts of Africa. Several groups of reenactors of the shtetls of old, in secret, embraced the tenets of the Jewish faith. In the heart of Berlin, secret communities of Jews maintained a secretive, precarious existence. The proud Kingdom of Wakanda remained independent and free of Nazis and had lately taken to reevaluating the historically isolationist stance thanks to the ongoing humanitarian crisis surrounding them. Finally the conflict would begin when Reinhard Heydrich, once more became Chancellor of Germany and, without a scapegoat, led the country to War against Japan.

The Stalemate between America, Japan and Germany finally ended when the Americans were discovered to have backed an uprising in Britain by implanting a code word in a broadcast of the drama An Englishman’s Castle. This led to an uprising in Britain in 1978 with the country joining America in the War soon after. The US, Britain and Canada (which had escaped Axis occupation after World War II) fought against Germany, its European allies and, surprisingly, Japan in the conflict. However in the end the victor was not in doubt. With Two more atomic bombings, superhuman attacks on US soil and the Japanese deployment of mechas. The USA, Britain, Canada and Japan were victorious, though Germany maintained the control of Europe with the exception of Britain. Vengeful Russians in the remotest parts of Siberia however continue to chafe at German dominance and began listening to the promises of a highly charismatic man named Kane with a resemblance to Vandal Savage. In Germany itself, the death of Führer Kurt Haldweim in 2010 led to a replacement by the reform minded Heinz Buckliger, which began to make changes loosening the Reich's grip on the world. Bucklinge was briefly kidnapped in a coup but was rescued by Rolf Stolle, who continued with the changes of restoring power to the people with Nazi Germany now preparing to go the way of the Soviet Union. America's problems were not over as Oliver Queen II, the great grandson of the original Oliver Queen, who had fought in World War II as the Green Arrow, led a team into briefly conquering America, declaring himself Reichsmarschall. Queen reopened research into the reality in which the Axis had lost the second World War and led his team into this other Universe, planning to invade and rule it alongside his lover, Overgirl, a clone of the deceased cousin of Overman. This invasion would be defeated by the heroes of the Earth they invaded.

It seems now the Reich would not live for the thousand years its founder envisioned.

Rather racist, conservative and authoritarian. Even though most of its historic enemies have been by and large eliminated, anti-Semitic and racist beliefs remain popular in Germany. Those groups deemed non-Aryan who were not wiped out completely are little more than chattel, being enslaved or used and abused for entertainment. Supernatural phenomena is more or less an open secret, but discussing it openly will net you a visit from the Gestapo (if you’re lucky that will be where it stops). Homosexuality is illegal and women are seen as belonging in the home (with rare exceptions like Ilsa Schneider and Renate Richter). However, after Buckliger became Fuhrer, things have begun to loosen up. This has mostly taken the form of democratization rather than de-Nazification and Nazi ideals remain popular with the public. However, the increasing liberalization of things like speech, the press and elections means that perhaps the end of the Reich will not come from outside, but within. This of course worries many elements of the Reich’s leadership, who have begun considering summoning an infovore from the Necronomicon to decrease the public appetite for democracy. Doing so would of course be ill-advised but many of the Nazi “Old Guard” would sooner see the world perish than accept anything less than what would amount to a thousand years of Hitler
its really nice to see some new names postings an other info in here. I really think that other than new story posts the names really help flesh out this timeline and make it seem lived in....
Any more names or story soon ?

So I've mostly been busy working on research for my master's thesis lately, but as I was driving home from running errands today I decided I wanted to do a little work on this TL so that's what I'm sitting down to do right now so hopefully, I'll have something new soon.
Interlude - American Civil Rights Movement ITTL, 1940s-1971
So as I was reviewing the timeline for this story, and getting ready to start writing on some of the people on "The List," the next person up was Rosa Parks, and I realized that I never really dealt with the Civil Rights movement ITTL, other than a vague statement or two that it "went slower than OTL," and that MLK Jr. was still a major player and became a martyr after being killed by the Nazis after the invasion. SO, this post will correct that oversight.


- 1954: President Joseph Kennedy officially desegregates the Armed Forces of the United States, amid much pushback from the South. This will be one of the issues that helps Thurmond get elected in 1956.
- 1956: Townsend v. Board of Education of Atlanta, Georgia, the Supreme Court rules that "separate but equal" does not work in education, and that the doctrine more generally is "constitutionally questionable." This will be another issue that helps get Thurmond elected. He campaigns on "non-enforcement" whereas his opponent, VP Richard Russell, is openly supportive of the ruling.
- 1957: President Thurmond sends a memo to the Justice Department that they will not enforce the Townsend v. Board ruling. Protests occur across the South and in DC, and in some areas the National Guard is called up. A few states actually do comply (Virginia, Kentucky, Tennessee, Missouri, and Oklahoma), but the rest refuse without Federal mandate.
- 1958: Little Rock, Arkansas - Hundreds of African American high school students march on Little Rock Central High School and "occupy" the building, demanding to be allowed to attend, citing Townsend v. Board. After two days of a standoff, police and national guard soldiers move in and forcibly remove the students. The nation is horrified by the images, but Little Rock refuses to enforce Townsend.
- 1959: Bus Boycott begins in Montgomery, Alabama, which will propel Martin Luther King, Jr., a local minister and outspoken critic of segregation, into the national spotlight. MLK and several other leaders are arrested and force is used in Alabama to end the first boycott that Fall.
- 1960: The NAACP and the SCLC organize a "nationwide" (but mainly southern) boycott of all segregated bus systems in the United States, that begins on April 1st. This will lead to major unrest and large protest marches in several southern cities, and force is again used to "restore order." Despite the use of force, several cities will ultimately begin desegregating their buses by the end of the year. President Thurmond uses this unrest to portray himself as the "Law and Order" candidate and wins narrow reelection.
- 1961: Clara Luper, an African American high school teacher in Oklahoma City, working with student members of the NAACP, organize a sit-in at a local diner, refusing to leave until served. After three days of this, Luper and some of her students are arrested. This leads to a protest march through downtown Oklahoma City, where force is used. Instead of killing the Sit-In Movement, MLK and other leaders from the Bus Boycott Movement latch on to the idea and praise Luper and her students. Within weeks, sit-ins are occurring across the nation, with modest success. Since they largely target individual business practices, it is a slow march of one restaurant after another eventually caving in through the mid-1960s.
- 1962: President Thurmond gives his infamous speech (that would later be praised in post-WWIII textbooks) about the importance of "separate but equal," saying to supporters at a speech given in Atlanta that "All men may have been created equal, but all men are not the same, and mixing services for Whites and Negros will fundamentally alter and weaken our republic."
- 1963: In a major scandal broken by the NYT in October, it is revealed that President Thurmond has been in contact with several southern leaders about how to "suppress the Negro vote" in the 1964 elections.
- 1964: In response to the "vote scandal," the NAACP organizes a massive "get out the vote" campaign to get Hubert Humphrey elected, a movement that becomes galvanized by Thurmond running for a third term. There is some localized violence on election day, but the large and determined turnout of voters sweeps Thurmond out of office. Humphrey ran on a platform championing civil rights for African Americans.
- 1965: In his inaugural address, President Humphrey announces that he will enforce the 1956 Townsend ruling, and look into other areas where the ruling's implications can be applied. By the end of the year, the Justice Department, working with the Department of Education, announces guidelines for all schools in the United States to be fully integrated by 1970.
- 1966: In recognition of the efforts made by the NAACP during the 1964 election, the Humphrey Administration prioritizes the passage of a Voting Rights Act, which will pass by the end of the year.
- 1967: In a major upset for the administration, the Civil Rights Act fails to pass by narrow margins. This would have outlawed discrimination based on race, gender, religion, or national origin.
- 1968: a major focus shifts to getting more Democrats elected so that Humphrey can get a civil rights bill passed. Some from the women's rights movement are reaching out and discussing the possibility of making this new bill after the election include equality for the races and genders. Humphrey wins reelection, and it looks like there is going to be a pro-civil rights act majority in Congress.
- 1969: Debate drags on over whether to revive the original Civil Rights Act of 1967, or combine it with the equal rights proposals for women.
- 1970: The Equal Rights Act passes Congress, which declares that discrimination or unequal treatment based on race, gender, religion, or national origin is a federal crime, and that this would apply to employment, housing, service industries, and banking. It is signed in October, and almost immediately challenged in court.
- 1971: In May, the Supreme Court announces they will hear the case against the ERA that Fall. The invasion, of course, prevents this.
- 1972: The Thurmond Government repeals the ERA and the Voting Rights Act, along with many other pro Civil Rights legislation pieces, and enshrines the separation of the races in law nationally.
"What happened to...." List, Part 8
And here are a few more names:

  • Rosa Parks - Unknown ITTL. She does participate in the Montgomery Bus Boycott of 1959 and the larger National Bus Boycott of 1960, but she is not the instigator like she was OTL. She will be rounded up in 1972, and sent to Dry Gulch Camp, where she dies in 1974.
  • James Meredith - Life is very similar to OTL. He will apply for admission to the University of Mississippi in 1963 but of course is rejected. He will reapply in 1965 after the election of Hubert Humphrey, and will successfully force University desegregation the following year. He becomes an activist and works with the Humphrey Administration on several projects. He is on one of the post-war round-up lists and arrested in early 1972, and ends up sent ot the Talladega Camp, where he dies in 1975.
  • Medgar Evers - Mississippi Civil Rights Activist and Lawyer, he gets elected to Congress in 1970, and was killed in the DC nuke.
  • Evan Mecham - elected to the Arizona House of Representatives in 1958 after the election of President Thurmond in 1956, Mecahm was an outspoken supporter of the President (not the most popular position to take in Arizona, but not political suicide either), and he stayed in office until 1962, at which time he was elected to the US House of Representatives. In 1968, Mecham runs for Governor of Arizona, but loses the election. After WWIII, he will win the 1972 election for Governor, and is a “proud supporter of the FJP and President Thurmond.” In 1980, he is elected as senator, a position he holds until he retires in 1992. He dies in 1997 from natural causes.
  • Johnny Cash - Popular radio personality in Arkansas, had mixed political views but would not support the new regime and so was arrested in 1973 and sentenced to hard labor in South Dakota for 15 years, released in 1982 on “good behavior.” Returned to Arkansas where he taught music. Died in 1990.
  • Mel Brooks - Popular comedy director from the 1950s and 1960s. Survives the war, flees to Mexico. He is eventually hunted down by the NBSS in 1979 and killed.
  • Bette Davis - A popular actress from the “Golden Age of Hollywood,” Davis’s career was largely in decline by the late 1960s, and her last film was released in 1969. She survived the war, and went in to official retirement after the war was over, appearing in a few TV specials in the early 80s for USTV, before passing away in 1996.
Thanks for this very interesting as usual. Given this history I have a feeling that alot of what Thurmond did was based on personal pay back and revenge in addition to his views which makes him even more odious-if thats possible....
Thanks for this very interesting as usual. Given this history I have a feeling that alot of what Thurmond did was based on personal pay back and revenge in addition to his views which makes him even more odious-if thats possible....

Thanks! Glad you liked it.
Yeah, Thurmond's post-war government is definitely going to take a line of "restoring the 'true' America" and look at things done by Humphrey, the Civil Rights movement, etc., as examples of America getting off track and the new Freedom & Justice Party is setting things to rights.
So I just saw Green Book- great movie btw-and it made me think about what benign looking horrors Herman will see on his roadtrip in the South and elsewhere in the USA....
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