The Union Forever: A TL
- Thread starter Mac Gregor
- Start date
Keep it up, MacGregor!
-Cool look at Venus, too bad it didn't result in any sort of surface exploration, but hey ya gotta start somewhere.
-"Cold War" between the democratic USA and Chinese technocracy? Ohhhh snap...should prove interesting in the coming decades!
-Good to see the "globtrix" continuing to pop up in TTL
-Events in the East Indies and Africa look good to me, troubling as the latter case in Chad seems to be.
Great update! Manned flyby of Venus! I look forward to 1990 and a map
Cold War
Unrest in central Asia and Manchuria? Here's hoping for independence to all those nations, but also that none of them fall into the technocratic block, which seems more brutal than the IEF.
Thanks for the support guys. To touch on a few points.
1) USA-IEF relations are decent. They are rivals in the space race but other than that they don't have any competing security concerns. Indeed, with the rise of China they have moved closer to each other in recent years. Manchuria is a bit of a stumbling block as the USA doesn't like Russia's heavy handed tactics. On the other hand they don't want to see a Technocratic Manchuria falling into Chinese orbit.
2) I'm not sure if there are any movements for new Brazilian states. Any proposals?
3) I should be able to make a government map and freedom map in the near future.
With regards to new Brazilian states, I'd suggest splitting the south off Mato Grosso; IOTL it is simply called Mato Grosso do Sul, which should work here, too. As well, you could split the north from Goiás and call it Araguaia - after the river that forms it's western border - instead of the OTL name, Tocantins (the river that runs through the center of the state).
Wouldn't these states butterfly away? These were former over 100 years after POD.
The addition to Brunei seems to be interesting. Brunei never managed any effective control of the portion of North Sabah; it's a surprise that it didn't manage to maintain independence of some sort or union with Sarawak instead. (It was always mostly a very loose rule, and the Bruneian taxmen were hated by many of the inhabitants of North Borneo.) The territory was originally leased to the US Consul IOTL due to that rather sparse control over the territory. (It was also leased by the Sultan of Sulu simultaneously). After so long, I could see Sabah succeeding as an independent country (albeit with some concessions to Brunei to those whom wish to reside in the sultanate; the same could be said for Sarawak).
Just seemed to be rather odd. What happened to Labuan island? It was a major British possession; I could see it being ceded to Sarawak even though it is now completely surrounded by Brunei. Hopefully the Brookes can continue good rule in Sarawak; maybe Sarawak could become TTTL equivalent of South Korea/Taiwan/Singapore.
Just seemed to be rather odd. What happened to Labuan island? It was a major British possession; I could see it being ceded to Sarawak even though it is now completely surrounded by Brunei. Hopefully the Brookes can continue good rule in Sarawak; maybe Sarawak could become TTTL equivalent of South Korea/Taiwan/Singapore.
Yeah, believe it or not I tend to favor butterflies. This is the provincial map of Imperial Brazil circa 1822.
However, let me know if there is a compelling reason to create new states. Cheers!
Thanks for these excellent comments. To put it simply, the reason that Brunei got northern Borneo was..... MONEY. Although occupied by the Japanese during the Asia-Pacific War, Brunei's treasury weathered the experience rather well in several Swiss accounts. During the 1980s, the cash strapped British government was only to happy to sell the heavily damaged northern Borneo colony to Brunei for a sizable sum. Furthermore, some British officials in the foreign office were outright bribed by Brunei but this story wouldn't break until 1998. No need to worry about Labuan Island it was given to Sarawak. And yes, Sarawak has a bright future ahead.
Governmental Map: 1990
Because you asked, here is the government map circa January 1, 1990.
Freedom Index Map: 1990
And here is the freedom index from Harper's Weekly for January, 1990.
That's not going to end well or reflect well on the United Kingdom. The equivalent population of Sabah OTL in 1980 was over a million. The war would definitely had caused some depopulation, but it shouldn't be massive. That would just mean that the British sold not quite a million subjects to the Sultan without any sort of referendum. That, combined with the recent troubles with Chad, will definitely call for some light to be shined on the decision making of the British. The Commonwealth might be in trouble...
In more recent means, it will certainly draw the concern of the Philippines in the meantime, along with Indonesia. And, perhaps, the Technocracy may feel that it is a way to intrude into Indonesia.
Alright, Brazilian states. I tried to split up the ones with the most population as opposed to the largest territories. Sao Paulo and Bahia are split into coastal and inland areas. Minas Gerais and Para split along north/south lines.
I also now must say that the Cape Province in South Africa should probably be split, and that some of the the provinces of the West Africa Federation might also be split up.
I also now must say that the Cape Province in South Africa should probably be split, and that some of the the provinces of the West Africa Federation might also be split up.
Interesting, however I fail to see the reason for splitting these states. Nation's (especially federations) usually don't just split their territories/provinces because they are to big.
Indeed, this is going to cause problems for the British Commonwealth. Furthermore, Brunei will also be experiencing its own problems as it tries to integrate these new subjects.
It seems that Sarawak is a Constitutional Monarchy, being part of the Commonwealth and all.
Hey everyone, been thinking about the inner workings of the German Empire. See page 100, for earlier discussion on this topic. The map below shows one possible option for internal divisions. This assumes that Hanover was neutral and therefore not annexed ITTL's Austro-Prussian War. However it did fight with Prussia as part of the North German Confederation during the TL's Great War. Wanted to know what y'all think? Anybody see any errors or have any ideas?
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Huh. I was just reading over the section with pearsonwright's original map back in the 100's of the thread. Funny how those things work.
I don't see a point to dividing the entirety of Austria into so many states; since it's a republic, it could be federalized so that the various states could still operate more independently than a unified kingdom. It kinda would make some ironic sense, especially if they are truly federalized and each nominally independent and owing loyalty to a federation that is loyal to the empire.
That, and separating Austria (and Bavaria, to a lesser degree) would have made the Southern German states a bit more antic at the original point of inclusion, as they only maintained their strength while unified. It's hard to tell without determining how internal German politics work, and whether the German states would act as blocs or if various states often horsetrade with each other.
My suggestion: have the Bavarian Republic be a more centralized republic that at one point included the Palatinate and possibly have some other internal divisions. (Franconia is a popular one) However, that doesn't have to be the case; it could have been ruled as a centrally governed republic, with the Palatinate having sought and gained its own independence as a separate republic within Germany through arbitration by the other German states.
For Austria, I'd suggest an Austrian Confederation, with all of the states being loosely under the central rule of Austria. This would allow all of the former Germany components of the Hapsburg Empire to maintain their unity but keep Austria from being too unified. The different parts of Austria have divergent interests, especially in the Sudetenland and Austrian Silesia; those would have large minority populations. Allowing the Confederation would allow the Austrians to accommodate the states with need of greater minority representation versus those in the south, and it prevents Austria itself from being too strong as each separate state within the confederation is arguing to take the largest share. The Southern German states did join Germany, but dividing the strongest among them into pieces to weaken it would do further to isolate them.
You could have an event occur later down the line to separate parts of Austria (or parts of Bavaria, for that matter) from the rest of the country, but the Germans outside of Prussia would be wary of a divide and rule operation carried out by the largest component that is Prussia. Prussia can maintain first among equals status without splintering Austria. Also, it fits the theme of the Great War: The various empires gave up as much of their various components to maintain their core territory. The French maintained most of what was France; the Austrians should probably also maintain most of what is Austria.
Besides, an sovereign Austrian Confederation with various sovereign states all accepting the overlordship of the Germany Empire which is a sovereign nation-state is a overly-complicated, Byzantine style of government best suited for the former rulers of the Holy Roman Empire.
EDIT: Also, the south-eastern component of Austria should be Styria; the central pink one should be Salzburg-Carinthia. Having seven internal divisions would be good, as the odd number would help let the lower density (population) parts of Austria have influence over the urban center.
Although, I should ask, what is the general state of Austria? Is Vienna still as important as it was before the war, or did its population decrease as much as in OTL? Same with the rest of Austria.
Also: Included suggestion. The borders are more for emphasis; on a proper map, they'd be removed and the individual states numbered, labeled, or perhaps hashed to show inclusion within the Confederation.
I don't see a point to dividing the entirety of Austria into so many states; since it's a republic, it could be federalized so that the various states could still operate more independently than a unified kingdom. It kinda would make some ironic sense, especially if they are truly federalized and each nominally independent and owing loyalty to a federation that is loyal to the empire.
That, and separating Austria (and Bavaria, to a lesser degree) would have made the Southern German states a bit more antic at the original point of inclusion, as they only maintained their strength while unified. It's hard to tell without determining how internal German politics work, and whether the German states would act as blocs or if various states often horsetrade with each other.
My suggestion: have the Bavarian Republic be a more centralized republic that at one point included the Palatinate and possibly have some other internal divisions. (Franconia is a popular one) However, that doesn't have to be the case; it could have been ruled as a centrally governed republic, with the Palatinate having sought and gained its own independence as a separate republic within Germany through arbitration by the other German states.
For Austria, I'd suggest an Austrian Confederation, with all of the states being loosely under the central rule of Austria. This would allow all of the former Germany components of the Hapsburg Empire to maintain their unity but keep Austria from being too unified. The different parts of Austria have divergent interests, especially in the Sudetenland and Austrian Silesia; those would have large minority populations. Allowing the Confederation would allow the Austrians to accommodate the states with need of greater minority representation versus those in the south, and it prevents Austria itself from being too strong as each separate state within the confederation is arguing to take the largest share. The Southern German states did join Germany, but dividing the strongest among them into pieces to weaken it would do further to isolate them.
You could have an event occur later down the line to separate parts of Austria (or parts of Bavaria, for that matter) from the rest of the country, but the Germans outside of Prussia would be wary of a divide and rule operation carried out by the largest component that is Prussia. Prussia can maintain first among equals status without splintering Austria. Also, it fits the theme of the Great War: The various empires gave up as much of their various components to maintain their core territory. The French maintained most of what was France; the Austrians should probably also maintain most of what is Austria.
Besides, an sovereign Austrian Confederation with various sovereign states all accepting the overlordship of the Germany Empire which is a sovereign nation-state is a overly-complicated, Byzantine style of government best suited for the former rulers of the Holy Roman Empire.
EDIT: Also, the south-eastern component of Austria should be Styria; the central pink one should be Salzburg-Carinthia. Having seven internal divisions would be good, as the odd number would help let the lower density (population) parts of Austria have influence over the urban center.
Although, I should ask, what is the general state of Austria? Is Vienna still as important as it was before the war, or did its population decrease as much as in OTL? Same with the rest of Austria.
Also: Included suggestion. The borders are more for emphasis; on a proper map, they'd be removed and the individual states numbered, labeled, or perhaps hashed to show inclusion within the Confederation.
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Very interesting, thanks for the feedback.
I still don't really understand why a Prussian dominated Germany would want to keep any notion of a unified Austria alive. The purpose of splitting Austria up was to keep the Austrians divided, though it does give them greater representation in the upper house of the Reichstag. Sure there will certainly be a lingering Austrian identity in the various states but what advantages does an Austrian Confederation have?
Concerning the Palatinate, I considered have the Wittlesbach dynasty rule over it as a kingdom in compensation for loosing Bavaria. thoughts?
As of 1990, Vienna is Germany's second largest city with 2,996,000. However, it is still far behind Berlin's 6,271,000.
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