The Union Forever: A TL

[Mac Gregor]

Huh. I was just reading over the section with pearsonwright's original map back in the 100's of the thread. Funny how those things work.

I don't see a point to dividing the entirety of Austria into so many states; since it's a republic, it could be federalized so that the various states could still operate more independently than a unified kingdom. It kinda would make some ironic sense, especially if they are truly federalized and each nominally independent and owing loyalty to a federation that is loyal to the empire.

That, and separating Austria (and Bavaria, to a lesser degree) would have made the Southern German states a bit more antic at the original point of inclusion, as they only maintained their strength while unified. It's hard to tell without determining how internal German politics work, and whether the German states would act as blocs or if various states often horsetrade with each other.

My suggestion: have the Bavarian Republic be a more centralized republic that at one point included the Palatinate and possibly have some other internal divisions. (Franconia is a popular one) However, that doesn't have to be the case; it could have been ruled as a centrally governed republic, with the Palatinate having sought and gained its own independence as a separate republic within Germany through arbitration by the other German states.

For Austria, I'd suggest an Austrian Confederation, with all of the states being loosely under the central rule of Austria. This would allow all of the former Germany components of the Hapsburg Empire to maintain their unity but keep Austria from being too unified. The different parts of Austria have divergent interests, especially in the Sudetenland and Austrian Silesia; those would have large minority populations. Allowing the Confederation would allow the Austrians to accommodate the states with need of greater minority representation versus those in the south, and it prevents Austria itself from being too strong as each separate state within the confederation is arguing to take the largest share. The Southern German states did join Germany, but dividing the strongest among them into pieces to weaken it would do further to isolate them.

You could have an event occur later down the line to separate parts of Austria (or parts of Bavaria, for that matter) from the rest of the country, but the Germans outside of Prussia would be wary of a divide and rule operation carried out by the largest component that is Prussia. Prussia can maintain first among equals status without splintering Austria. Also, it fits the theme of the Great War: The various empires gave up as much of their various components to maintain their core territory. The French maintained most of what was France; the Austrians should probably also maintain most of what is Austria.

Besides, an sovereign Austrian Confederation with various sovereign states all accepting the overlordship of the Germany Empire which is a sovereign nation-state is a overly-complicated, Byzantine style of government best suited for the former rulers of the Holy Roman Empire.

EDIT: Also, the south-eastern component of Austria should be Styria; the central pink one should be Salzburg-Carinthia. Having seven internal divisions would be good, as the odd number would help let the lower density (population) parts of Austria have influence over the urban center.

Although, I should ask, what is the general state of Austria? Is Vienna still as important as it was before the war, or did its population decrease as much as in OTL? Same with the rest of Austria.

Also: Included suggestion. The borders are more for emphasis; on a proper map, they'd be removed and the individual states numbered, labeled, or perhaps hashed to show inclusion within the Confederation.

Very interesting, thanks for the feedback.

I still don't really understand why a Prussian dominated Germany would want to keep any notion of a unified Austria alive. The purpose of splitting Austria up was to keep the Austrians divided, though it does give them greater representation in the upper house of the Reichstag. Sure there will certainly be a lingering Austrian identity in the various states but what advantages does an Austrian Confederation have?

Concerning the Palatinate, I considered have the Wittlesbach dynasty rule over it as a kingdom in compensation for loosing Bavaria. thoughts?

As of 1990, Vienna is Germany's second largest city with 2,996,000. However, it is still far behind Berlin's 6,271,000.

 

[Utgard96]

I think a top-down German empire like this one (which was after all created through direct Prussian conquest rather than a gradual subsumption of independent states tempered by occasional war like the OTL Kaiserreich) would be run in a much more centralist manner.

 

[Luminous]

Very interesting, thanks for the feedback.

I still don't really understand why a Prussian dominated Germany would want to keep any notion of a unified Austria alive. The purpose of splitting Austria up was to keep the Austrians divided, though it does give them greater representation in the upper house of the Reichstag. Sure there will certainly be a lingering Austrian identity in the various states but what advantages does an Austrian Confederation have?

Concerning the Palatinate, I considered have the Wittlesbach dynasty rule over it as a kingdom in compensation for loosing Bavaria. thoughts?

As of 1990, Vienna is Germany's second largest city with 2,996,000. However, it is still far behind Berlin's 6,271,000.

That would explain the division of the Palatinate and Bavaria quite well.

It just seems that the situation on the ground in the rest of the German states that are annexed under the de facto situation on the ground. And the Hapsburg monarchy was the foe, not the German people of Austria (which is why I imagine Bavaria was allowed to remain a republic).

I see the Prussians having three options:

They could split republican Austria into several component parts. A few of those would naturally coalesce, especially in Austria proper, and in the meantime they would increase the representation of the various parts. Austria itself would not be a threat, but that wouldn't matter in a generation, anyway. Looking at OTL, the Austrian identity took time to emerge after WW1 as the Austrians considered themselves German. Splitting the states up wouldn't really encourage that anymore, and my stir up the monarchists and unionists. Note that splitting up Austria in a federalized matter would encourage those calls in Prussia; do they want to risk the Rhienland and Schleswig-Holstein splitting off? (After all, if they were split off, they'd get more representation as well. That wouldn't be in Prussia's best interests)

Austria could be kept as one centralized unit. This reduces representation by a bit, but gives a strong power to compete with Bavaria as leader as the opposition. By default, Bavaria would be the leader so long as there isn't a strong Austria. With the stronger Austria, they will compete with Bavaria with position, which could turn Prussia's potential political headaches into an advantage as they jockey for that leadership role. This does confer the danger of them totally assuming that role.

That's why I think a decentralized, federated/confederated Austria is the best bet for Prussia. It does reduce representation, as Imperial level representation would only be chosen by Austria as a whole. However, most of the power is devolved to the provinces, whom then would have the ability to chart their own courses in the majority of domestic policy, which would confer most of the advantages of dividing Austria in the first place (dividing Austria and having competition within the former territories distract from maintaining a steady imperial-level policy that could counter Berlin). That, and a few of the territories are heavily minority; in 1911, even Troppau/Silesia was minority majority. That would probably change, with Czechs possibly leaving for Bohemia, but Poles might emigrate from Prussia to Silesia, especially if it autonomous. Prussia would look at it and see that instead of having the Poles of Silesia elect representation, they would have to instead work their way through the Austrian system and, correspondingly, have their influence reduced.

That would give local home rule to each of the distinct components while also reducing their influence on Imperial politics and preventing them from effectively and consistently acting as the leader of any opposition party. It also would reduce calls for Imperial level federalization (the borders of Austria shown bear greater semblance to federalized districts than the old monarchistic borders of Austria) and instead direct the natural growth to be through the Kingdom/etc level assemblies. (Just as Silesia would have to seek more representation through Austria, the Rhineland would seek more through Prussia)

It's just my two cents, as each of the options do have problems. I just think the decentralized federation/confederation is the best compromise.

Also, what do you have the population of Austria et al for? Looking at the OTL German population of the Hapsburg empire in 1911 as a whole (about 12 million), even with only 2/3 of that being present in Austria after the war (doesn't return to the new homeland coupled with emigration and casualties of war, which gives about 8 million), I would estimate that the German population of Austria would be about 19 million by 1990 after an initial decline followed by (perhaps optimistic, although varying) periods of growth. How does that compare to your numbers?

Also, the only border quibble I have is the Tyrolean/Salzburg-Carinthian border. That salient looks a little too deep, as it gets very close to the border with Innsbruck. There should be a salient, but not so large. EDIT: Maybe something like one of these two: the one on the left if you want Tyrol to still retain Lienz, and the second one of Lienz is in Salzburg-Carinthia with a concession to Tyrol in its stead.

 

[Mac Gregor]

I think a top-down German empire like this one (which was after all created through direct Prussian conquest rather than a gradual subsumption of independent states tempered by occasional war like the OTL Kaiserreich) would be run in a much more centralist manner.

A much more centralist manner in what way?

 

[Utgard96]

A much more centralist manner in what way?

Abandoning the ridiculous OTL state borders that only existed because of how the pre-unification borders were drawn, for one. Italy did IOTL, so no reason why Germany shouldn't be able to do so as well.

 

[Mac Gregor]

That would explain the division of the Palatinate and Bavaria quite well.

It just seems that the situation on the ground in the rest of the German states that are annexed under the de facto situation on the ground. And the Hapsburg monarchy was the foe, not the German people of Austria (which is why I imagine Bavaria was allowed to remain a republic).

I see the Prussians having three options:

They could split republican Austria into several component parts. A few of those would naturally coalesce, especially in Austria proper, and in the meantime they would increase the representation of the various parts. Austria itself would not be a threat, but that wouldn't matter in a generation, anyway. Looking at OTL, the Austrian identity took time to emerge after WW1 as the Austrians considered themselves German. Splitting the states up wouldn't really encourage that anymore, and my stir up the monarchists and unionists. Note that splitting up Austria in a federalized matter would encourage those calls in Prussia; do they want to risk the Rhienland and Schleswig-Holstein splitting off? (After all, if they were split off, they'd get more representation as well. That wouldn't be in Prussia's best interests)

Austria could be kept as one centralized unit. This reduces representation by a bit, but gives a strong power to compete with Bavaria as leader as the opposition. By default, Bavaria would be the leader so long as there isn't a strong Austria. With the stronger Austria, they will compete with Bavaria with position, which could turn Prussia's potential political headaches into an advantage as they jockey for that leadership role. This does confer the danger of them totally assuming that role.

That's why I think a decentralized, federated/confederated Austria is the best bet for Prussia. It does reduce representation, as Imperial level representation would only be chosen by Austria as a whole. However, most of the power is devolved to the provinces, whom then would have the ability to chart their own courses in the majority of domestic policy, which would confer most of the advantages of dividing Austria in the first place (dividing Austria and having competition within the former territories distract from maintaining a steady imperial-level policy that could counter Berlin). That, and a few of the territories are heavily minority; in 1911, even Troppau/Silesia was minority majority. That would probably change, with Czechs possibly leaving for Bohemia, but Poles might emigrate from Prussia to Silesia, especially if it autonomous. Prussia would look at it and see that instead of having the Poles of Silesia elect representation, they would have to instead work their way through the Austrian system and, correspondingly, have their influence reduced.

That would give local home rule to each of the distinct components while also reducing their influence on Imperial politics and preventing them from effectively and consistently acting as the leader of any opposition party. It also would reduce calls for Imperial level federalization (the borders of Austria shown bear greater semblance to federalized districts than the old monarchistic borders of Austria) and instead direct the natural growth to be through the Kingdom/etc level assemblies. (Just as Silesia would have to seek more representation through Austria, the Rhineland would seek more through Prussia)

It's just my two cents, as each of the options do have problems. I just think the decentralized federation/confederation is the best compromise.

Also, what do you have the population of Austria et al for? Looking at the OTL German population of the Hapsburg empire in 1911 as a whole (about 12 million), even with only 2/3 of that being present in Austria after the war (doesn't return to the new homeland coupled with emigration and casualties of war, which gives about 8 million), I would estimate that the German population of Austria would be about 19 million by 1990 after an initial decline followed by (perhaps optimistic, although varying) periods of growth. How does that compare to your numbers?

Also, the only border quibble I have is the Tyrolean/Salzburg-Carinthian border. That salient looks a little too deep, as it gets very close to the border with Innsbruck. There should be a salient, but not so large. EDIT: Maybe something like one of these two: the one on the left if you want Tyrol to still retain Lienz, and the second one of Lienz is in Salzburg-Carinthia with a concession to Tyrol in its stead.

This clears things up a lot. I now understand the case for an Austrian Confederation. However, I will still have to think it over because as you said any option is going to have some drawbacks. How do you envision the German upper house of parliament working ITTL?

I was thinking Austria's population would be between 17-20 million.

Good call on the Tyrolean/Salzburg-Carinthian border, I have changed it.

 

[Mac Gregor]

Abandoning the ridiculous OTL state borders that only existed because of how the pre-unification borders were drawn, for one. Italy did IOTL, so no reason why Germany shouldn't be able to do so as well.

I imagine that the Socialists, Technocrats, and maybe even the German Democratic Union would want a massive overhaul of internal boundaries as well as an abolition/neutering of the various royal houses. However, would the Prussians that formed the German Empire be in favor of such a massive change? Also, I would love to see some alternate proposals for a division of Germany.

 

[Indicus]

I don't think that Germany will have any "republican states", considering that Germany was unified by Imperial Prussia. They will probably be called something like "free states".

 

[Utgard96]

I don't think that Germany will have any "republican states", considering that Germany was unified by Imperial Prussia. They will probably be called something like "free states".

I think that was meant to be a general term rather than anything official. Very likely they'll still individually call themselves Free States, but I don't think there'd be any official collective name for them.

 

[Luminous]

This clears things up a lot. I now understand the case for an Austrian Confederation. However, I will still have to think it over because as you said any option is going to have some drawbacks. How do you envision the German upper house of parliament working ITTL?

I was thinking Austria's population would be between 17-20 million.

Good call on the Tyrolean/Salzburg-Carinthian border, I have changed it.

It's probably a direct continuation of the North German Reichstag, with each different region or constituent state having multiple different districts to elect single members. The following has a good map of the different districts. Mind that, without Hanover, Prussia would have 19 fewer districts for its own, and with Austria you'd probably add about 40 or so, depending on how they were divided. The districts seem to be primarily geographical rather than population based, save for the smallest of states.

Mind, Prussia was losing influence after the first 20 years of unification; it was one of the more sparsely populated regions compared to the west and the south. It would be even less influential without Hanover and with Austria in the empire as well.

I don't think that Germany will have any "republican states", considering that Germany was unified by Imperial Prussia. They will probably be called something like "free states".

Well, Bavaria became a republic during the Great War, and after that it was annexed by Germany. Prussia would have to maintain the good will of the South German states, and would let Bavaria in as a republic. As they would be isolated, save for Austria and the Free Cities, they wouldn't necessarily remain in any particular power block.

Abandoning the ridiculous OTL state borders that only existed because of how the pre-unification borders were drawn, for one. Italy did IOTL, so no reason why Germany shouldn't be able to do so as well.

They probably only would if there was a federal reform and a revocation of the many ruling families' powers. There hasn't been any indication of an internal threat to Germany's current order. Of course, if there is a republican reordering of Germany or a centralized absorption of all of Germany under one house, then I'd agree.

 

[Utgard96]

It's probably a direct continuation of the North German Reichstag, with each different region or constituent state having multiple different districts to elect single members. The following has a good map of the different districts. Mind that, without Hanover, Prussia would have 19 fewer districts for its own, and with Austria you'd probably add about 40 or so, depending on how they were divided. The districts seem to be primarily geographical rather than population based, save for the smallest of states.

Mind, Prussia was losing influence after the first 20 years of unification; it was one of the more sparsely populated regions compared to the west and the south. It would be even less influential without Hanover and with Austria in the empire as well.

He asked how the upper house would work. Which really depends on how the state is organised - if the old states are retained, it'd probably work like the Imperial Bundesrat worked IOTL (each state government sends representatives, who have a fixed number of votes to be cast however the state government pleases), but if it was centralised, it could work in any number of ways.

I imagine that the Socialists, Technocrats, and maybe even the German Democratic Union would want a massive overhaul of internal boundaries as well as an abolition/neutering of the various royal houses. However, would the Prussians that formed the German Empire be in favor of such a massive change? Also, I would love to see some alternate proposals for a division of Germany.

They probably only would if there was a federal reform and a revocation of the many ruling families' powers. There hasn't been any indication of an internal threat to Germany's current order. Of course, if there is a republican reordering of Germany or a centralized absorption of all of Germany under one house, then I'd agree.

I can't remember how the Great War went down exactly, but I seem to recall it being more or less like the Austro-Prussian War of OTL in that nearly all the small states aligned against Prussia, but Prussia still saw higher priorities than consolidating them. That said, I do believe something would've happened to them by now, since they were hardly a permanent solution. Perhaps have them survive as something similar to the Scottish lieutenancy areas, with administrative functions taken up by more uniform units (which is how I planned to do it in SoaP)? I could work out borders for such units, I think.

 

[Luminous]

He asked how the upper house would work. Which really depends on how the state is organised - if the old states are retained, it'd probably work like the Imperial Bundesrat worked IOTL (each state government sends representatives, who have a fixed number of votes to be cast however the state government pleases), but if it was centralised, it could work in any number of ways.

I can't remember how the Great War went down exactly, but I seem to recall it being more or less like the Austro-Prussian War of OTL in that nearly all the small states aligned against Prussia, but Prussia still saw higher priorities than consolidating them. That said, I do believe something would've happened to them by now, since they were hardly a permanent solution. Perhaps have them survive as something similar to the Scottish lieutenancy areas, with administrative functions taken up by more uniform units (which is how I planned to do it in SoaP)? I could work out borders for such units, I think.

Ah, my bad. In that case, it depends on whether the various Prussian provinces each get a vote, or if Prussia only gets a set number equal to each other sovereign state. If that's the case, then keeping Austria to only a single set of votes would be most important.

And the Great War was started by the anti-monarchist crisis in Bavaria. France and Austria-Hungary were strong enough that the Franco-Prussian War was avoided, but the South German states stayed within the French sphere. Bavaria was refounded as a republic by German nationalists/anti-monarchists during the war, but it was over before the other South German states fell to the same fate. (Well, save for Austria, but the empire disintegrated.) As it is, I don't see anything happening to the South German states before anything happens to the North German ones as well; while Austria's borders are funky, they and the rest of the South German states are relatively normal compared to the NGF and the entities within it.

That's not to say that there couldn't be a division during the war, with Silesia going to Prussia and Sudetenland going to Prussia/Saxony/Bavaria, but most of Austria should stay together. As it is a republic (having lost the Hapsburgs) there wouldn't be such a complaint. Any changes to the internal divisions of the empire would require border adjustments to Brunswick, Anhalt, and others just as much as it would the South German States. (let's not mention Thuringia)

 

[Mac Gregor]

It's probably a direct continuation of the North German Reichstag, with each different region or constituent state having multiple different districts to elect single members. The following has a good map of the different districts. Mind that, without Hanover, Prussia would have 19 fewer districts for its own, and with Austria you'd probably add about 40 or so, depending on how they were divided. The districts seem to be primarily geographical rather than population based, save for the smallest of states.

Mind, Prussia was losing influence after the first 20 years of unification; it was one of the more sparsely populated regions compared to the west and the south. It would be even less influential without Hanover and with Austria in the empire as well.


Well, Bavaria became a republic during the Great War, and after that it was annexed by Germany. Prussia would have to maintain the good will of the South German states, and would let Bavaria in as a republic. As they would be isolated, save for Austria and the Free Cities, they wouldn't necessarily remain in any particular power block.



They probably only would if there was a federal reform and a revocation of the many ruling families' powers. There hasn't been any indication of an internal threat to Germany's current order. Of course, if there is a republican reordering of Germany or a centralized absorption of all of Germany under one house, then I'd agree.

He asked how the upper house would work. Which really depends on how the state is organised - if the old states are retained, it'd probably work like the Imperial Bundesrat worked IOTL (each state government sends representatives, who have a fixed number of votes to be cast however the state government pleases), but if it was centralised, it could work in any number of ways.





I can't remember how the Great War went down exactly, but I seem to recall it being more or less like the Austro-Prussian War of OTL in that nearly all the small states aligned against Prussia, but Prussia still saw higher priorities than consolidating them. That said, I do believe something would've happened to them by now, since they were hardly a permanent solution. Perhaps have them survive as something similar to the Scottish lieutenancy areas, with administrative functions taken up by more uniform units (which is how I planned to do it in SoaP)? I could work out borders for such units, I think.

Ah, my bad. In that case, it depends on whether the various Prussian provinces each get a vote, or if Prussia only gets a set number equal to each other sovereign state. If that's the case, then keeping Austria to only a single set of votes would be most important.

And the Great War was started by the anti-monarchist crisis in Bavaria. France and Austria-Hungary were strong enough that the Franco-Prussian War was avoided, but the South German states stayed within the French sphere. Bavaria was refounded as a republic by German nationalists/anti-monarchists during the war, but it was over before the other South German states fell to the same fate. (Well, save for Austria, but the empire disintegrated.) As it is, I don't see anything happening to the South German states before anything happens to the North German ones as well; while Austria's borders are funky, they and the rest of the South German states are relatively normal compared to the NGF and the entities within it.

That's not to say that there couldn't be a division during the war, with Silesia going to Prussia and Sudetenland going to Prussia/Saxony/Bavaria, but most of Austria should stay together. As it is a republic (having lost the Hapsburgs) there wouldn't be such a complaint. Any changes to the internal divisions of the empire would require border adjustments to Brunswick, Anhalt, and others just as much as it would the South German States. (let's not mention Thuringia)

I was thinking something along the lines of the Bundesrat for the upper house. I think Prussia would use its influence on the small German states to ensure a majority. Although who knows, by the 1990s I'm not sure how intense regional rivals are as most simply think of themselves as German.

So are we good with Hannover continuing to exists or is there some reason that Prussia would just have to had annex it?

Ares96, I would love to see some alternate options.

 

[Lalli]

I don't think that there is very much rivalty between German states. From unification is already 80 years so probably most of Bavarians, Austrians etc. feel being Germans.

 

[Luminous]

It depends on how many powers are retained by the various individual kingdoms et al. There probably will be a friction between the republican entities and the monarchistic states, especially as the federalists/anti-monarchists would find their strength in those. And, again, there can be a regionalist dynamic to Germany. I find this more likely than OTL considering that the various states are relatively unbalanced in their power and importance compared to OTL.

Look at the US: you have various sovereign entities of which several have a stronger self-identity compared to the others. Texas is the first one that springs to mind, as well as California, but each state has a separate identity that is stronger or weaker based on economic differences, history, population, and other factors, but they all identify as an American first. You'd probably have a similar dynamic in Germany, with everyone identifying as German first and foremost, but with the regional identities being far stronger than OTL. (You'd also have a division within individual states, especially Prussia. Think of Upstate New York city and the differences within that).

I don't know of a reason why Hanover would be independent if the Austro-Prussian war was the same; however, if I remember correctly, it didn't occur in this timeline and the North German states eventually fell into Prussia's sphere. I think it'd be good to keep Hanover independent, as that gives a third large state that'd have a chance for growth. Heck, you might even see a bit of internal faction jockeying, with Prussia leading the conservative states (mostly the pro-monarchist) and Bavaria becoming the republican center of the German Empire, with perhaps Hanover also forming a third way group of states whom don't side with either?

It can be complex or as simple as possible. However, one thing I do think will happen is that many of the exclaves will be merged with adjacent units or made Free Cities as well, over time. Each of the various states might maintain a core nucleus while shedding the various far-off portions. I might tinker with the map tomorrow with some suggestions of some such deals that may have occurred.

 

[SuperFrog]

Went back and read about Europe before the Great War.

https://www.alternatehistory.com/discussion/attachment.php?attachmentid=115680&d=1286755853

Thats the map that was made. Its outdated, but I assume the Germany area is ok. As you can see, there was no Austria-Prussia war. Instead, the northern German states fell into the Prussian sphere eventually, and the southern three allied with France and Austria and would later be absorbed into Germany after the war.

For that reason, I can only assume that the German states would look something like that map above. Ignore the alliances and just look at it as a pre-Austria-Prussia war map.

 

[Luminous]

Interesting. The only difference between the two seems to be the absence of Saxe-Lauenburg in Mac's map. That should probably there; it's only a small bit of territory in the end; there's no reason they should have been annexed, especially if Hanover wasn't.

What is most curious is that, in the original map, that Schleswig-Holstein is shown as separate from Prussia and just under Prussia's influence. Was there an alternate referendum that allowed a greater duchy of Schleswig-Holstein-Lauenburg to be created? Or, perhaps, they should be either retained by Prussia or split into the constituent parts (or a little bit of both).

 

[Mac Gregor]

I don't think that there is very much rivalty between German states. From unification is already 80 years so probably most of Bavarians, Austrians etc. feel being Germans.

It depends on how many powers are retained by the various individual kingdoms et al. There probably will be a friction between the republican entities and the monarchistic states, especially as the federalists/anti-monarchists would find their strength in those. And, again, there can be a regionalist dynamic to Germany. I find this more likely than OTL considering that the various states are relatively unbalanced in their power and importance compared to OTL.

Look at the US: you have various sovereign entities of which several have a stronger self-identity compared to the others. Texas is the first one that springs to mind, as well as California, but each state has a separate identity that is stronger or weaker based on economic differences, history, population, and other factors, but they all identify as an American first. You'd probably have a similar dynamic in Germany, with everyone identifying as German first and foremost, but with the regional identities being far stronger than OTL. (You'd also have a division within individual states, especially Prussia. Think of Upstate New York city and the differences within that).

I don't know of a reason why Hanover would be independent if the Austro-Prussian war was the same; however, if I remember correctly, it didn't occur in this timeline and the North German states eventually fell into Prussia's sphere. I think it'd be good to keep Hanover independent, as that gives a third large state that'd have a chance for growth. Heck, you might even see a bit of internal faction jockeying, with Prussia leading the conservative states (mostly the pro-monarchist) and Bavaria becoming the republican center of the German Empire, with perhaps Hanover also forming a third way group of states whom don't side with either?

It can be complex or as simple as possible. However, one thing I do think will happen is that many of the exclaves will be merged with adjacent units or made Free Cities as well, over time. Each of the various states might maintain a core nucleus while shedding the various far-off portions. I might tinker with the map tomorrow with some suggestions of some such deals that may have occurred.

Went back and read about Europe before the Great War.

https://www.alternatehistory.com/discussion/attachment.php?attachmentid=115680&d=1286755853

Thats the map that was made. Its outdated, but I assume the Germany area is ok. As you can see, there was no Austria-Prussia war. Instead, the northern German states fell into the Prussian sphere eventually, and the southern three allied with France and Austria and would later be absorbed into Germany after the war.

For that reason, I can only assume that the German states would look something like that map above. Ignore the alliances and just look at it as a pre-Austria-Prussia war map.

Interesting. The only difference between the two seems to be the absence of Saxe-Lauenburg in Mac's map. That should probably there; it's only a small bit of territory in the end; there's no reason they should have been annexed, especially if Hanover wasn't.

What is most curious is that, in the original map, that Schleswig-Holstein is shown as separate from Prussia and just under Prussia's influence. Was there an alternate referendum that allowed a greater duchy of Schleswig-Holstein-Lauenburg to be created? Or, perhaps, they should be either retained by Prussia or split into the constituent parts (or a little bit of both).

All interesting remarks, thanks for the feedback.

I could see a north-south divide with the pro-monarchy Conservatives dominating in the north, while the Democrats and Socialists are more prevalent in the South. There would of course be some overlap.

Good point on Saxe-Lauenburg, I'll think about reinstating it.

I will try a post a final map for Germany soon. Cheers!

 

[Utgard96]

Given that southern Germany tends to be more conservative than northern Germany IOTL, I'm not sure that'd be helpful. Certainly the Conservatives and allies would be dominant in the rural north, but the cities would likely be left-wing hotbeds. Similarly, in the south you'd see a divide between Catholic conservatives in the countryside and socialists in the cities. The five biggest socialist strongholds will likely be Berlin, Hamburg, Vienna, the Ruhr and Saxony.

 

[Mac Gregor]

Given that southern Germany tends to be more conservative than northern Germany IOTL, I'm not sure that'd be helpful. Certainly the Conservatives and allies would be dominant in the rural north, but the cities would likely be left-wing hotbeds. Similarly, in the south you'd see a divide between Catholic conservatives in the countryside and socialists in the cities. The five biggest socialist strongholds will likely be Berlin, Hamburg, Vienna, the Ruhr and Saxony.

I didn't know that. Very interesting. Generally speaking this could bode well for the monarchy as the republican south will be support it because they tend to be more conservative and the north supports it as well because of its Prussian roots.


What do y'all think of these allotments for the Bundesrat, the upper house of parliament. Representation is not based strictly on population but that is one factor. I think it would be left up the states on how to cast their votes. Some electors would vote independently, others would vote as their state governments tell them.

State Votes in the Bundesrat

Prussia 15
Austria 8
Bavaria 6
Hannover 4
Saxony 4
Württemberg 4
Baden 3
Hesse 3
Mecklenburg-Schwerin 2
Brunswick 2
Palatinate 2
19 other small states 19

Total 72