The Sun, The Stars and The Sickle: Alt-WWII and a Tripolar Postwar World
- Thread starter WaterproofPotatoes
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It is overkill; the Allies aren't taking any chances here. This battle is vital for the Soviet Union. As long as Murmansk is in German hands, the only other large warm water port in Soviet hands west of the Urals is Arkhangelsk. If the convoys are disrupted, that's a huge problem. Then, supplies would have to be shipped via Vladivostok and the Trans-Siberian Railway, which would be bottlenecked.
It's especially vital as the Germans have half a million more men and far fewer distractions than in OTL. "Moscow By Christmas", at this point, looks like it may actually happen- and Stalin knows it.
The destruction of port facilities is another controversial matter. The Japanese want to inflict as much damage as possible- destroying not only the ships, but repair facilities, fuel tanks, airfields, and essentially anything the Germans could use to make war. There is also the fact that the Japanese are terrified that the Soviets have a battleship program and... wouldn't exactly mind the collateral damage.
The Soviets, on the other hand, want the Anglo-Japanese raid to "Remove würst, but don't break anything else."
The British position is between the two. It concedes that while everything they damage now is something that must be repaired later- but Murmansk is still in German hands now. As such, the primary target is the ships; secondary targets are airfields, fuel and ammunition dumps.
Just the USSR at the moment. The last thing that Finland wants is the Allies (who, less the Soviets, are at least somewhat sympathetic to Finland's position) to turn their attention to them, or for Sweden to forgo her neutrality in favour of joining the Allies like Norway did.
Should I remind everyone of one of the Seventy Rules?
There is no such thing as ‘overkill’. Only ‘Fire at will.’ and ‘I need more ammunition.’.
There is no such thing as ‘overkill’. Only ‘Fire at will.’ and ‘I need more ammunition.’.
Somehow, I get the feeling the Japanese and Bomber Harris (i.e. the man who burned an entire city down to knock out its railway junctions and because it wasn't worth a British grenadier's life to hold back) getting along.
The Eye of the Tiger
Excerpts from "The Myth of the Turning Point". J. Weisberg, F.N. Doubleday, 1996
"WE have achieved surprise" were Captain Fuchida's last words transmitted to the fleet as the attack on Murmansk commenced.
It proceeded according to plan. The Germans were caught by surprise; the staggeringly poor intelligence unaware of the vast carrier presence.
Fuchida fired the famous "Black Dragon" flare from his B6N to signal the start of the attack, as the lead element of torpedo bombers positioned themselves, with Zeroes and Sea Hurricanes providing cover.
Torpedo after torpedo slammed into Bismarck's side; although his broad beam made him very reluctant to heel over.
The Germans struggled to scramble fighters, partly due to poor communication between the Kriegsmarine and the Luftwaffe, as the airfields were swept by Allied fighters. Most of the Luftwaffe's losses were on the ground, or against planes taking off.
Meanwhile, Bismarck's fate was sealed. Three direct hits from armour-piercing bombs dropped by the nimble D4Ys set off an explosion in one of his secondary magazines, starting a chain reaction which detonated his main magazines. Bismarck, the "North Sea Monster", was no more; blown up at his moorings. An estimated total of between eleven and sixteen torpedoes struck Bismarck which may have sunk him to the muddy bottom; Soviet sources do not disclose if this is what sunk him before he was cut up.
This stunning success did not result in the cancellation of the second wave. This time, more D4Ys as well as Albacores, with a Zero escort, concentrated on the smaller ships. Seydlitz was now the primary target. One of Glorious' Albacores collapsed her vulnerable stern with a well-placed torpedo; causing her to sink by the stern as she attempted to break out. More torpedo hits sealed her fate, as dive bombers and torpedoes made short work of the three remaining destroyers.
The third wave was somewhat delayed as many of the aircraft were forced to switch from torpedoes to bombs; as such it was launched at lower strength than the other waves, and concentrated on fuel and ammunition dumps. The successes were more limited as these proved harder targets to destroy than expected.
---
The attack was an unqualified success, vindicating once and for all the importance of the aircraft carrier, and the dangers of operating capital ships without air cover.
The commanders of the participating factions also saw their reputations vindicated or condemned.
John Tovey was lauded for his decision to halt the pursuit of Bismarck to rescue the crew of Swiftsure. The rescued sailors, and their families vigorously defend his reputation to this day.
Isoroku Yamamoto was hailed in both British and Japanese press as a genius; he also received the first gensui badge of the Second World War. Marshal-Admiral Yamamoto was also awarded the Order of the Rising Sun, First Class, for his achievement in developing and prosecuting the attack on Murmansk. Fuchida was recommended for promotion to rear admiral, for the Order of the Golden Kite, 1st Class, and immediately received the bukokisho 1st Class.
Newsreels lauded the performance of the Allied fleet- at last, a truly decisive victory against Germany in Europe was achieved; her naval forces hobbled. It was in these newsreels that "Through the Day; Throughout the Week: The Japanese Sailors' Song" was introduced to Western audiences in an instrumental form, usually played whenever the Imperial Japanese Navy was featured.
The mood was not quite so rosy in Gemany. Hitler was furious at Grand Admiral Raeder and the Kreigsmarine, and was reported to have screamed at Raeder for three hours upon hearing of the defeat at Murmansk. This was compounded by yet another defeat- the pocket battleship Lützow, attempting to raid a convoy while breaking out during the chaos to raid Atlantic tangled with the American escort- and it was the old four-stack USS Edsall (DD-219) that brought her raid to an end, with a well placed torpedo to Lützow's stern, causing her to have to break off, and limp back to Germany. Her diesel fuel reserves contaminated by seawater, she required a tow almost as soon as she entered the North Sea.
Hitler, in his rage, ordered an immediate suspension to all surface naval operations. Raeder attempted to resign; Hitler, in his fury, demoted him to Generaladmiral and fired him. Karl Doenitz took his place. Hitler then ordered that all of the guns from the remaining cruisers (Tirpitz was granted temporary reprieve as there were no suitable mountings for her guns) landed for use in the Soviet Union.
This, it is commonly alleged, marked Hitler's downfall into micromanagement of the Wehrmacht.
"WE have achieved surprise" were Captain Fuchida's last words transmitted to the fleet as the attack on Murmansk commenced.
It proceeded according to plan. The Germans were caught by surprise; the staggeringly poor intelligence unaware of the vast carrier presence.
Fuchida fired the famous "Black Dragon" flare from his B6N to signal the start of the attack, as the lead element of torpedo bombers positioned themselves, with Zeroes and Sea Hurricanes providing cover.
Torpedo after torpedo slammed into Bismarck's side; although his broad beam made him very reluctant to heel over.
The Germans struggled to scramble fighters, partly due to poor communication between the Kriegsmarine and the Luftwaffe, as the airfields were swept by Allied fighters. Most of the Luftwaffe's losses were on the ground, or against planes taking off.
Meanwhile, Bismarck's fate was sealed. Three direct hits from armour-piercing bombs dropped by the nimble D4Ys set off an explosion in one of his secondary magazines, starting a chain reaction which detonated his main magazines. Bismarck, the "North Sea Monster", was no more; blown up at his moorings. An estimated total of between eleven and sixteen torpedoes struck Bismarck which may have sunk him to the muddy bottom; Soviet sources do not disclose if this is what sunk him before he was cut up.
This stunning success did not result in the cancellation of the second wave. This time, more D4Ys as well as Albacores, with a Zero escort, concentrated on the smaller ships. Seydlitz was now the primary target. One of Glorious' Albacores collapsed her vulnerable stern with a well-placed torpedo; causing her to sink by the stern as she attempted to break out. More torpedo hits sealed her fate, as dive bombers and torpedoes made short work of the three remaining destroyers.
The third wave was somewhat delayed as many of the aircraft were forced to switch from torpedoes to bombs; as such it was launched at lower strength than the other waves, and concentrated on fuel and ammunition dumps. The successes were more limited as these proved harder targets to destroy than expected.
---
The attack was an unqualified success, vindicating once and for all the importance of the aircraft carrier, and the dangers of operating capital ships without air cover.
The commanders of the participating factions also saw their reputations vindicated or condemned.
John Tovey was lauded for his decision to halt the pursuit of Bismarck to rescue the crew of Swiftsure. The rescued sailors, and their families vigorously defend his reputation to this day.
Isoroku Yamamoto was hailed in both British and Japanese press as a genius; he also received the first gensui badge of the Second World War. Marshal-Admiral Yamamoto was also awarded the Order of the Rising Sun, First Class, for his achievement in developing and prosecuting the attack on Murmansk. Fuchida was recommended for promotion to rear admiral, for the Order of the Golden Kite, 1st Class, and immediately received the bukokisho 1st Class.
Newsreels lauded the performance of the Allied fleet- at last, a truly decisive victory against Germany in Europe was achieved; her naval forces hobbled. It was in these newsreels that "Through the Day; Throughout the Week: The Japanese Sailors' Song" was introduced to Western audiences in an instrumental form, usually played whenever the Imperial Japanese Navy was featured.
The mood was not quite so rosy in Gemany. Hitler was furious at Grand Admiral Raeder and the Kreigsmarine, and was reported to have screamed at Raeder for three hours upon hearing of the defeat at Murmansk. This was compounded by yet another defeat- the pocket battleship Lützow, attempting to raid a convoy while breaking out during the chaos to raid Atlantic tangled with the American escort- and it was the old four-stack USS Edsall (DD-219) that brought her raid to an end, with a well placed torpedo to Lützow's stern, causing her to have to break off, and limp back to Germany. Her diesel fuel reserves contaminated by seawater, she required a tow almost as soon as she entered the North Sea.
Hitler, in his rage, ordered an immediate suspension to all surface naval operations. Raeder attempted to resign; Hitler, in his fury, demoted him to Generaladmiral and fired him. Karl Doenitz took his place. Hitler then ordered that all of the guns from the remaining cruisers (Tirpitz was granted temporary reprieve as there were no suitable mountings for her guns) landed for use in the Soviet Union.
This, it is commonly alleged, marked Hitler's downfall into micromanagement of the Wehrmacht.
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As of now, one battleship, zero small battleships or heavy cruisers, and I think about six light cruisers, most of which are of questionable seaworthiness.
Six light cruisers without any guns at all, aye?
Well, with total naval supremacy, construction programs can begin to slow down and switch to ASW purposes, as there are no more heavy vessels the Germans can throw at them save Tirpitz.
So Bismarck suffered the OTL fate of Arizona and Oklahoma, i.e. armor-piercing bombs dropped at near or virtually ninety-degree angles by high-altitude bombers, punching straight through into the primary magazine and detonating there. And then for good measure, torpedoes are spammed against the hulk, turning it into Swiss cheese.
And as expected from the countless threads on the matter of the third wave which would be aimed at port facilities...ineffective. Even IOTL you need special, 1000 lb ordnance to crack them, and even then you still need sustained bombing operations to make it count, otherwise enemy engineers will get them back online in a matter of days.
And as expected from the countless threads on the matter of the third wave which would be aimed at port facilities...ineffective. Even IOTL you need special, 1000 lb ordnance to crack them, and even then you still need sustained bombing operations to make it count, otherwise enemy engineers will get them back online in a matter of days.
Quite. Not to mention that much of the facilities would be resistant to strafing as well; additional loiter time would likely result in more aircraft being shot down. I wouldn't be surprised if the 3rd wave sustained the highest casualties.
And Hitler manages to screw up the one thing that is really going right for them in the war, to no one's surprise.
Well, 2 updates
To be fair, the German light cruisers for the most part suffered from excessive topweight and couldn't empty their fuel tanks, so removing the guns probably improved their seaworthiness.
The 3rd wave did indeed sustain the most casualties; I'll have to consult my sources on the exact number
. Allied casualties were light on the whole; the German ships all had inadequate AA fits and couldn't make up for it even with good shooting. That the 1st wave pressed their advantage of surprise and the poor interservice communication of the German forces hampered defence efforts was certainly appreciated!The Allies learned some lessons as well. Britain learned that the FAA desperately needed modern fighters and strike aircraft to do their jobs effectively. The Seafire, while fine for the Mediterranean, lacks the range and ruggedness required for all-weather Atlantic and Pacific operations, and the Fulmar lacks the performance.
To that end, a navalized version of the Hawker Typhoon currently under development has been ordered.
As for the IJN, there is a desire to consolidate the torpedo and dive bomber roles into a single strike aircraft.
Hitler, after all, is still Hitler!
Leningrad is still besieged- TTL, the Finns aren't doing anything to help, as Mannerheim doesn't want to get involved. Typically abysmal Wehrmacht logistics are struggling, but holding together as this is the one theatre Nazi Germany has to concern them.
Amagi and Akagi both received major reconstructions between 1936 and 1939. As the pride of the Fleet and largest ships yet to carry the Chrysanthemum, they were lavished with all sorts of new equipment despite only being in commission for about 10 years. They were bulged, lengthened, received new boilers and turbines (the first installation of impulse turbines on an IJN capital ship), larger rudders, much larger AA fits, radar, the removal of their farthest forward casemate guns, new fire directors, increased gun elevation and other minor improvements.
The Yamatos draw on many of the lessons learned from the Amagis.
That engagement did indeed inspire the poster!
Indeed!
Construction work on Großer Kurfürst and Hindenburg slowed considerably at the outbreak of war, and was postponed indefinitely at the outbreak of Barbarossa. After the catastrophic defeat at Murmansk during Operation Tiger, Großer Kurfürst and Hindenburg were ordered broken up at approximately 25% and 20% complete respectively.
No replacement Hippers or Scharnhorsts were ordered either; as of now, the Kriegsmarine will have a token few destroyers (no new builds and all orders canceled) and some torpedo boats (spared the cuts) rounding out their surface forces.
Chiang's Reckoning
For now, we jump back in time slightly, and return to China...
---
KMT Headquarters
Nanking, Republic of China
August 3rd, 1941
9:56 AM
CHIANG Kai-Shek was beside himself with frustration.The last weeks had been disastrous. The ROC's bluffs were called, and once again, the Allied powers moved in on China. Defeat after defeat followed.
First, the disastrous attack on Tsingtao, which resulted in losses worse than ten-to-one. The defection of Wu's Union of China and the loss of Shanghai followed, compounded by the failure to take either Hong Kong or Singapore; repulsed each time by Anglo-Japanese defenders. It was the first defeat more than any other that weighed on Chiang's mind, due to the disastrous effect on morale.
Chiang sat in his office with three of his subordinates- Wang Jingwei, the voice of the KMT's right, Li Jishen, the voice of the KMT's left, and Du Yuesheng, mostly because Du was at his most dangerous when not closely supervised.
In front of the men, spread out on a table, were newspapers. One of them, in particular, stood out. On the cover of an issue of the Tsingtao Daily was a large picture of smiling Japanese and Manchukuo soldiers holding aloft a tattered captured standard of Waffen-SS Rechtschaffene Faust. The article itself didn't matter, the picture was clear enough. Eichmann's programme, intended to create the image of supermen, was now a target of ridicule. The brand was damaged beyond rehabilitation, and the blame for that rested squarely on the shoulders of one man.
Eichmann.
Eichmann had championed the attack on Tsingtao. Eichmann had stated that the German-developed tactics would overwhelm the city. Eichmann, the snivelling secretary, also believed that whatever casualties were incurred were inconsequential. That's how a butcher thinks, not a soldier.
It was increasingly obvious just how out of his depth Eichmann was, and how bad he had become at hiding the fact he simply asked his SS superiors what to do- and their recommendations were based on the information Eichmann gave them- and, once again, this was a man without military experience.
Chiang stared at the picture, while Du broke the silence.
"You know you have to get rid of him" said Du, matter-of-factly.
"But how, without jeopardizing our alliance with the Germans?" interjected Wang.
"It is true" posited Li "We must get rid of this burdensome official. But Wang is right- we cannot afford to lose any friends. We must also consider whether we will be better positioned to reason with Wu or Mao"
"I have heard enough.Get Falkenhausen and that... party functionary in here.
And get Bose. Li is right, we do need all the friends we can get!"
---
KMT Headquarters
Nanking, Republic of China
August 3rd, 1941
9:56 AM
CHIANG Kai-Shek was beside himself with frustration.The last weeks had been disastrous. The ROC's bluffs were called, and once again, the Allied powers moved in on China. Defeat after defeat followed.
First, the disastrous attack on Tsingtao, which resulted in losses worse than ten-to-one. The defection of Wu's Union of China and the loss of Shanghai followed, compounded by the failure to take either Hong Kong or Singapore; repulsed each time by Anglo-Japanese defenders. It was the first defeat more than any other that weighed on Chiang's mind, due to the disastrous effect on morale.
Chiang sat in his office with three of his subordinates- Wang Jingwei, the voice of the KMT's right, Li Jishen, the voice of the KMT's left, and Du Yuesheng, mostly because Du was at his most dangerous when not closely supervised.
In front of the men, spread out on a table, were newspapers. One of them, in particular, stood out. On the cover of an issue of the Tsingtao Daily was a large picture of smiling Japanese and Manchukuo soldiers holding aloft a tattered captured standard of Waffen-SS Rechtschaffene Faust. The article itself didn't matter, the picture was clear enough. Eichmann's programme, intended to create the image of supermen, was now a target of ridicule. The brand was damaged beyond rehabilitation, and the blame for that rested squarely on the shoulders of one man.
Eichmann.
Eichmann had championed the attack on Tsingtao. Eichmann had stated that the German-developed tactics would overwhelm the city. Eichmann, the snivelling secretary, also believed that whatever casualties were incurred were inconsequential. That's how a butcher thinks, not a soldier.
It was increasingly obvious just how out of his depth Eichmann was, and how bad he had become at hiding the fact he simply asked his SS superiors what to do- and their recommendations were based on the information Eichmann gave them- and, once again, this was a man without military experience.
Chiang stared at the picture, while Du broke the silence.
"You know you have to get rid of him" said Du, matter-of-factly.
"But how, without jeopardizing our alliance with the Germans?" interjected Wang.
"It is true" posited Li "We must get rid of this burdensome official. But Wang is right- we cannot afford to lose any friends. We must also consider whether we will be better positioned to reason with Wu or Mao"
"I have heard enough.Get Falkenhausen and that... party functionary in here.
And get Bose. Li is right, we do need all the friends we can get!"
Why not just have Eichmann get into an accident, i.e. he tripped and fell down the stairs, breaking his neck.
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