The People's Flag is Deepest Red - A Revolutionary TL
- Thread starter Waltzing Brunhilda
- Start date
Yep IOTL, added on with even worse realtions with the Whites and well...
Yes. The Finnish and Russian Civil Wars will be the same in this as in TRO
I wonder the fate of the Americas as quite frankly if All those countries go red would really changes the dynamic of socialists abroad
@Waltzing Brunhilda a book you may find useful in figuring out US policy towards Russia in 1917 - 1922:
"Reconstructing Russia: US policy in Revolutionary Russia, 1917 - 1922" (Leo J. Bacino, The Kent State University Press).
"Reconstructing Russia: US policy in Revolutionary Russia, 1917 - 1922" (Leo J. Bacino, The Kent State University Press).
Oh thank you I keep on forgetting about the Yanks
It's easy to do so lol. But yeah, Wilson and the American political and economic leadership were rather interested in Russia at the time IOTL, at first because they were worried that Berlin would be able to utilise the Russian resources to mitigate the effects of the naval blockade and, more long term, because of the possibility of Russia being integrated in a German economic bloc after the war that would shut off American businesses and economic interests from the region and create serious competition for the US in general (they also feared the possibility of Japan going for a partition of Russia into spheres of influences in agreement with Germany or establishing a strong presence of its own in Siberia). With the Bolsheviks being more successful and perhaps managing to eliminate serious opposition to their rule in European Russia and the neighbouring regions, the US might decide to be more proactive in Siberia (perhaps in coordination with the British in Central Asia) an d support local political movements more. Although it would probably not result in the creation of a long-living state in Siberia, either in the form of a rump Russian republic or a local government, it could certainly make life for Petrograd more difficult there, given the distances involved.
About Central Asia, perhaps the British would hang on there longer than OTL and actually try to force the Bolsheviks out of Tashkent and the Transcaspian and Turkestan oblasts - so a more ambitious Mallenson mission. Especially if the US decided to back the British and the French as anti-communist bulwarks, and everything between Alsace and Vladivostok going crimson red, London might, just might, decide to try to keep the RSFSR as far away from India as possible, if only in order to make "infiltration" by "Bolshevik agents" more difficult and also keep them at a distance from Iran. The Soviets would most likely not be able to really threaten the British that far south, at least in the short and perhaps medium term, but the likes of Churchill and others would probably keep touting the line of the "Bolshies being on the verge of reaching the Persian Gulf" and with Germany and central and eastern Europe firmly under socialist/Soviet rule, such views would probably gain significantly more traction than OTL. (just my thoughts).
So I expect the Soviets to potentially have a harder time in Asia, although with a much shorter and less devastating post-1917 war in Europe, many more allies in the latter and a better economy, the Red Army would most likely manage to overcome even this more powerful opposition in the area.
Definitely not by the time that the front was that far-east the Whites were collapsing in on themselves, barely anyone could stomach each other and they'd been undergoing a string of defeats, which would be even worse ITTL. By my reading the White movement once it was solidly on the backfoot just collapsed into infighting.
I'm considering it though my reading on Centeral Asia does make it think it'd be very hard for the Whites to maintain any sort of holding there, because it was de-facto in a state of anarchy for a lot of the war. I'm also not going to spoil too much but the British might not be in the shape to intervene anywhere in Russia...
Thanks for the replies.
About the first one, yes, that's true, but with Germany going red in 1918, the US would most likely be more worried than OTL and therefore do more to keep at least Siberia away from Petrograd's control - for all sorts of reasons, from pure economic interests to maintaining a rump state to even the idea that Red Germany might be able to use the resources of the region to start the war again (all sorts of ideas would be floating around and if Britain seems to be facing a real chance of falling to the "revolutionary wave", as you seem to allude, policy-makers in Washington would probably try every trick in the book to forestall such an event; therefore it might not be impossible for the Americans to try to organise local politicians and elites outside the White camp as a political alternative in the region - iirc, the region was more more "liberal" in some ways than the European section of Russia proper so local landowners, businessmen and even farmers etc could perhaps be used to some extent. Again, this would most likely fail, for Lenin and the rest of the Bolshevik leadership wouldn't cease until the banners of the Red Army were in Sakhalin and the conditions for Siberian independence wouldn't be there, while the region would still have a considerable number of Bolshevik allies and sympathisers - railway workers, miners etc (there were certain events before the war like the massacre of the miners working in British - owned gold mines near the river Lena in 1912 or 1913 iirc) that would want to unite with their comrades west of the Urals. Perhaps the experience of a more active local political scene in Siberia in 1918 - ? , even if brief in duration, could have some interesting consequences further down the road (since you mentioned in a previous reply here that the USSR wouldn't be founded, instead remaining the RSFSR, perhaps a Siberian autonomous SSR or something equivalent could gain prominence as an idea. (just a thought of mine).
Although I touched it more above, could this perhaps lead to a sort of US-Japanese split with regard to intervention in the area, with the US trying to organise local political and economic forces and elites while Tokyo would support the "devils it knew", ie the White commanders, who would probably start acting more like warlords?
About the second one: you still have Bukhara (and secondarily Khiva), while the grip of the local Bolsheviks in Tashkent was rather weak - Kolesov's blunders and a sort of "Apartheid" approach (ie iirc there was a feeling that it had been the Russians of Turkestan that had carried out the Revolution there, so the Revolution concerned them and only them, with the local population remaining in a position similar to its previous one). Although Britain may be hit by strike waves etc, London didn't exactly involve itself too much in British activities in Central Asia at the time except when important decisions were involved, iirc, it was mainly the British administration in India and nearby British diplomats and agents in Meshed and Kashgar that bore the brunt of directing of the intervention. The British intervention in the area mainly began after Russia dropped out of the war, with the chief objective being the prevention of the repatriation of the German and Austrian prisoners held there, the use of the area's economic resources by the Central Powers and blocking attempts of the Germans and the Ottomans to gain a foothold in Central Asia in order to be able to foment anti-British activity in India. Perhaps if Germany seems to be teetering closer to revolution as the armistice day nears, the British officials in India might decide to keep their missions in the area longer than OTL, in order to monitor the situation more (mainly out of fear of the Bolsheviks being able to direct more of their energies to Asia with their European flank secure and potentially having the means to pursue more ambitious goals in the region). I guess that an intervention would most likely focus more on setting up local forces to combat the Bolsheviks and the Red Army - an almost herculean task considering the mere fact that they would somehow have to get troops of the emirs, local insurgents and White units to fight together and not conduct skirmishes against each other every third day. Using Indian troops would probably be out of the question due to fears of mutiny and exposure to "revolutionary subversion", so the British would most likely focus on providing money, arms, training, advisers and intelligence. Again, it would most likely fail, but it could make life somewhat hard for Petrograd in the area. In the medium and long term, the British could perhaps try to build up Persia as an anti-Soviet/communist buffer and try to keep Afghanistan more under its influence, which could prove interesting. Of course all these would depend on the ability of the British to finance all these operations, which means that the US has to keep the checkbook open, but given the circumstances, it might not be impossible - although whether that would be to the extent that it could give Petrograd real headaches is up to debate.
And a second question: with the Bolsheviks being perceived as more menacing with a German revolution and revolution sweeping through Europe east of the Rhine, would the British and the French change their policy vis-a-vis the Ottomans post-armistice/ the Nationalists? On the one hand, the desire to maintain Anatolia outside Communist influence might make the British (and perhaps the French, if they aren't too busy dealing with the Germans) (the Italians would probably face their own very serious domestic unrest and thus not be able to pay much attention) more "attentive" to Istanbul's sensitivities and therefore, the alt-Sevres could perhaps be milder than OTL, with Anatolia remaining under full Ottoman control and perhaps the British and the French trying to use the Ottomans more in the Caucasus (not sure how the timeline develops though, I am assuming that not much changes in the Middle East until October 1918 / when the Ottomans sign an armistice).
The Finnish Revoultion: The Begining of the End
With the withdrawal of White Forces from Pohjanmaa, and unofficial relations between the World’s premier power and the Revolutionaries opening it was clear to the Whites that it had become a doomed cause. To the south-east Russia was engaged in militant upheaval as the Bolsheviks began to clash with the rising White Forces. The Baltics were in effective anarchy with local governments holding power following the removal of Petrograd from the board. The Whites were demoralized, their leadership was dissolving into infighting over the withdrawal, and the attempted movement to install a monarchy in Finland had stalled in the search for a suitable king.
The Norwegian border, while porous and mostly uninhabited, had been shut down through British pressure. To the east the northern regions of Russia had effectively fallen under Bolshevik control. By the 10th of January the first desertion was reported in the capital of Torino, when three members of the Civil Guard abandoned their weapons, and entered Sweden seeking asylum. As a material effect to the Whites’ cause it was effectively meaningless, but for morale purposes it was devastating. The image of Civil Guards in the White’s very capital fleeing served as a key instrument in Red propaganda. As fighting died down over January, and February, the desertions amongst the Civil Guard began to creep throughout the increasingly fragile White coalition.
The final crack was the battle of Tampere. A battle that would seal Finland’s fate for good.
-☭-
Very small update sorry about that. But I'm going to swing over to Russia for a bit so I'll leave you on this cliffhanger
The Norwegian border, while porous and mostly uninhabited, had been shut down through British pressure. To the east the northern regions of Russia had effectively fallen under Bolshevik control. By the 10th of January the first desertion was reported in the capital of Torino, when three members of the Civil Guard abandoned their weapons, and entered Sweden seeking asylum. As a material effect to the Whites’ cause it was effectively meaningless, but for morale purposes it was devastating. The image of Civil Guards in the White’s very capital fleeing served as a key instrument in Red propaganda. As fighting died down over January, and February, the desertions amongst the Civil Guard began to creep throughout the increasingly fragile White coalition.
The final crack was the battle of Tampere. A battle that would seal Finland’s fate for good.
-☭-
Very small update sorry about that. But I'm going to swing over to Russia for a bit so I'll leave you on this cliffhanger
The Fall of Finland
With the withdrawal of White Forces from Pohjanmaa, and unofficial relations between the World’s premier power and the Revolutionaries opening it was clear to the Whites that it had become a doomed cause. To the south-east Russia was engaged in militant upheaval as the Bolsheviks began to clash with the rising White Forces. The Baltics were in effective anarchy with local governments holding power following the removal of Petrograd from the board. The Whites were demoralised, their leadership was dissolving into infighting over the withdrawal, and the attempted movement to install a monarchy in Finland had stalled in the search for a suitable king.
The Norwegian border, while porous and mostly uninhabited, had been shut down through British pressure. To the east the northern regions of Russia had effectively fallen under Bolshevik control. By the 10th of January the first desertion was reported in the capital of Torino, when three members of the Civil Guard abandoned their weapons, and entered Sweden seeking asylum. As a material effect to the Whites’ cause it was effectively meaningless, but for morale purposes it was devastating. The image of Civil Guards in the White’s very capital fleeing served as a key instrument in Red propaganda. As fighting died down over January, and February, the desertions amongst the Civil Guard began to creep up and the leadership of
By May of 1918, the situation in the rump Kingdom of Finland was not good. The Åland archipelago had been annexed without a shot fired by Sweden. The Reds held the south of the country and Germany was on the verge of collapse, meaning that soon the fury of the British Empire would fall onto those who had murdered their ambassadors in cold blood. Despite the anti-Communist mindset of the leadership, they could see that the war was lost, the elimination of the Red Oulu pocket early in the war alongside the quick seizure of Red held Tornio meant that the Kingdom had the ability to evacuate west into Sweden. As the newly formed Finnish Red Army began to advance north along the Seinäjoki-Oulu train line the starving, demoralised, and rapidly outnumbered Whites began to collapse.
The newly formed Army of the Finnish Socialist Workers Republic pushed north at a steady pace; the scattered White Resistance and occasional pseudo guerrilla movements that they came across was enough for the Whites to begin their plans for withdrawal. Scattered contacts with the Swedish Government had allowed for the White’s to evacuate across to their western neighbour. While there were hopes that the Whites might be able to hold the Reds off in the north of the Country the beginning of the Hundred Days Offensive heralded the first stage of failure for the Whites. With their German backers beginning to collapse and the ability for Britain to enter the Baltic rapidly opening, the Whites began to initiate plans that they had never expected to use.
The withdrawal into Sweden was done in the most efficient manner possible, in return for ceding Åland to Sweden the Finnish Whites were allowed to evacuate into Sweden. The first echelon of evacuees was a sorry sight, the scared, tattered, and in many cases injured Finnish civilians bourgeois had been forced to flee through the depths of Winter to the northern refugee. As they entered Sweden many of them were unsure of what fate had in store for them but, freedom from the threat of the advancing Reds was enough for them. As the Reds drew north the evacuations picked up in speed with wounded soldiers withdrawing to the safety that Sweden represented, and as many White leaning people that could make it to Tornio fled North. The fall of Oulu on the 10th of May was the beginning of the final evacuation. All forces that were not needed at the front were packed onto boats, rafts, and barges to enter Sweden. As Red Forces drew nearer and nearer to Tornio they passed empty fortifications, and trenches dug with nobody to fill them.
As the Red’s entered Tornio on the 14th of May, they found a ghost town, everyone who wished to be had long since evacuated and those who did not in many cases had been simply executed by the increasingly radical elements of the White Guard. Mannerheim was the last of the Whites to leave Finland, his barge pushing off as the Reds stormed the last scattered holdouts of the White Guard scattered across the docks. To his dying day he would report that his last memory of Finland was a Red flag being raised over Tornio.
As the Red Flag was raised over Torino’s town hall, despite all the efforts of the Civil Guard, despite all of the effort that Mannerheim had thrown into keeping his homeland capitalist, he had failed.
The Revolution had triumphed in Finland.
The workers had triumphed and brought revolution to the Frozen North of Europe. Mannerheim would spend the rest of his life in quiet retirement in Åland, his residence guarded by the Swedish Government as a precaution against the occasional assassination attempts from disgruntled Finnish anti-Communists, and the occasional Yhteishyvän valiokunta agent sent from Helsinki.
The Norwegian border, while porous and mostly uninhabited, had been shut down through British pressure. To the east the northern regions of Russia had effectively fallen under Bolshevik control. By the 10th of January the first desertion was reported in the capital of Torino, when three members of the Civil Guard abandoned their weapons, and entered Sweden seeking asylum. As a material effect to the Whites’ cause it was effectively meaningless, but for morale purposes it was devastating. The image of Civil Guards in the White’s very capital fleeing served as a key instrument in Red propaganda. As fighting died down over January, and February, the desertions amongst the Civil Guard began to creep up and the leadership of
By May of 1918, the situation in the rump Kingdom of Finland was not good. The Åland archipelago had been annexed without a shot fired by Sweden. The Reds held the south of the country and Germany was on the verge of collapse, meaning that soon the fury of the British Empire would fall onto those who had murdered their ambassadors in cold blood. Despite the anti-Communist mindset of the leadership, they could see that the war was lost, the elimination of the Red Oulu pocket early in the war alongside the quick seizure of Red held Tornio meant that the Kingdom had the ability to evacuate west into Sweden. As the newly formed Finnish Red Army began to advance north along the Seinäjoki-Oulu train line the starving, demoralised, and rapidly outnumbered Whites began to collapse.
The newly formed Army of the Finnish Socialist Workers Republic pushed north at a steady pace; the scattered White Resistance and occasional pseudo guerrilla movements that they came across was enough for the Whites to begin their plans for withdrawal. Scattered contacts with the Swedish Government had allowed for the White’s to evacuate across to their western neighbour. While there were hopes that the Whites might be able to hold the Reds off in the north of the Country the beginning of the Hundred Days Offensive heralded the first stage of failure for the Whites. With their German backers beginning to collapse and the ability for Britain to enter the Baltic rapidly opening, the Whites began to initiate plans that they had never expected to use.
The withdrawal into Sweden was done in the most efficient manner possible, in return for ceding Åland to Sweden the Finnish Whites were allowed to evacuate into Sweden. The first echelon of evacuees was a sorry sight, the scared, tattered, and in many cases injured Finnish civilians bourgeois had been forced to flee through the depths of Winter to the northern refugee. As they entered Sweden many of them were unsure of what fate had in store for them but, freedom from the threat of the advancing Reds was enough for them. As the Reds drew north the evacuations picked up in speed with wounded soldiers withdrawing to the safety that Sweden represented, and as many White leaning people that could make it to Tornio fled North. The fall of Oulu on the 10th of May was the beginning of the final evacuation. All forces that were not needed at the front were packed onto boats, rafts, and barges to enter Sweden. As Red Forces drew nearer and nearer to Tornio they passed empty fortifications, and trenches dug with nobody to fill them.
As the Red’s entered Tornio on the 14th of May, they found a ghost town, everyone who wished to be had long since evacuated and those who did not in many cases had been simply executed by the increasingly radical elements of the White Guard. Mannerheim was the last of the Whites to leave Finland, his barge pushing off as the Reds stormed the last scattered holdouts of the White Guard scattered across the docks. To his dying day he would report that his last memory of Finland was a Red flag being raised over Tornio.
As the Red Flag was raised over Torino’s town hall, despite all the efforts of the Civil Guard, despite all of the effort that Mannerheim had thrown into keeping his homeland capitalist, he had failed.
The Revolution had triumphed in Finland.
The workers had triumphed and brought revolution to the Frozen North of Europe. Mannerheim would spend the rest of his life in quiet retirement in Åland, his residence guarded by the Swedish Government as a precaution against the occasional assassination attempts from disgruntled Finnish anti-Communists, and the occasional Yhteishyvän valiokunta agent sent from Helsinki.
Glad seeing this back, with Finland secure, the USSR will be in a more secure position in the Baltic and further make the union appear mighty that even the Finns who were weary of Russian domination are able to join up in the worker's revolution.
Nice to see this updated and looks like Finland is a communist country now. Wonder what’s the aftermath for other nations will look like now that there’s two, not one socialist nation.
Glad to see this alive, wonder which nation will next proudly raise the red banner