The New Order: Last Days of Europe Thread II

[Tolkiene]

Like Russian Whites. And Republican Spain. Really, that's not unrealistic.

To be blunt, those are not even remotely comparable. Nazi Germany is neither Spain in the '30s nor Russia from 1918-1922.

Republican Spain was the legitimate government of Spain, run by the Popular Front...which was still significantly less heterogenous than 'People's Germany'. And Russia was in a civil war after the Bolsheviks toppled the already unstable provisional government. And the Whites were largely led by established ex-Czarist generals.

The opposition to the Nazi regime was so weak that the 20 July coup plotters (who were mostly authoritarian, nationalist conservatives) had to stage a Bavarian fire drill....because most of the German population and the military supported the regime and viewed it as the legitimate government. And those who didn't like it were largely resigned to it and just hoped the war would end. And that was when it was quite clear that Nazi Germany was losing and that the 'Gröfaz' was leading the nation to ruin.

Never mind the fact that People's Germany is a really silly name, especially if you translate it into German. The available leaders also make very little sense. Adenauer was opposed to the Nazis, but refused efforts from the conservative resistance to recruit him because he viewed their plans as doomed to failure. He's definitely not joining a confused rebellion with Stalinists in it.

Mielke was just a Rotfront thug during the Weimar Republic and had to flee to the Soviet Union...so he'd probably still be in Russia somewhere. Otto Strasser had become a complete nobody even before Hitler came to power, and had to go into exile, where he remained a nonentity. Willi Stoph was a communist party member in the '30s, and then just a random Wehrmacht grunt until Germany's OTL defeat. Bertha Thalheimer was deported to a concentration camp in 1943, and would've probably died there, given her age and poor health.

 

[AeroTheZealousOne]

Never mind the fact that People's Germany is a really silly name, especially if you translate it into German.

I was wondering why the name of "Volksdeutschland" seemed off.

 

[MultiplePOD]

I was wondering why the name of "Volksdeutschland" seemed off.

Never mind the fact that People's Germany is a really silly name, especially if you translate it into German.

What's wrong with that name?

To be blunt, those are not even remotely comparable. Nazi Germany is neither Spain in the '30s nor Russia from 1918-1922.

Good point. Spain and Russia had disunited fronts, but they were legitimate and large enough to lose a war.

The opposition to the Nazi regime was so weak that the 20 July coup plotters (who were mostly authoritarian, nationalist conservatives) had to stage a Bavarian fire drill....because most of the German population and the military supported the regime and viewed it as the legitimate government. And those who didn't like it were largely resigned to it and just hoped the war would end. And that was when it was quite clear that Nazi Germany was losing and that the 'Gröfaz' was leading the nation to ruin.

Less good point. People's Germany only rises in the event of a dragged-out civil war. If that doesn't inspire opposition, I don't know what will.

 

[AeroTheZealousOne]

What's wrong with that name?

I don't know if there's anything wrong with it per se, it just feels awkward as a name. Try fitting "People's" in front of another country, like Vietnam or Ireland or Bosnia, as the formal or even informal name of a country. It makes more sense in a way when it's used as or similarly to an adjective (e.g. A People's Japan, or a Japan for the people) than it does as a noun, for reasons I can't explain based on fact since most of my grade school knowledge of this sort of thing is out the window. That and I might be used to the form where an adjective describing the government is in place between the two (fictitious e.g. Worker's Democracy of Canada, as opposed to Worker's Canada).

Might just be weirdness stemming from the English language.

 

[tancz31lh]

Yeah, the name could be changed, as can the specific figures involved, but the concept itself shouldn't be. The Whites were led by ex-Czarist generals but they also had support from some SRs and Mensheviks.

 

[Meshakhad]

I think it should be kept around because it is a key component of the TNO world and aesthetic and one of the things that keeps it unique from the dime-a-dozen "Himmler takes over" nazi victory TL's and mods and removing it does little more then add more reworks to a mod that desperately needs to actually move forward instead of constantly rehashing stuff.

Now I will admit that you may be right that Burgundy would be better served by rewriting it so that someone else is in charge of it at the start, especially if they can bring the writing up to the level of something like Guangdong or Manchuko, but it should stay around in some form.

Idea: Himmler is still Reichsfuhrer-SS, while Heydrich is the leader of RK Burgund, which is officially just another Reichskommissariat but is unofficially an SS fief. Heydrich will presumably support Himmler's bid to succeed Hitler, but if Himmler fails, Heydrich can offer Burgundy as a refuge, declaring independence and officially forming Ordenstaat Burgund. However, this then creates a power struggle between Heydrich and Himmler, which can then be exploited by the SS Collaborators.
If it were fully up to me, I'd distinguish the paths like so:

Heydrich is the saner one, intending to rule Burgundy in a manner similar to RK-Kaukasus, as a harsh, hyper-disciplined German regime lording it over the French and Belgians. He's also focused on eventually trying to retake Germany itself, believing that it is the SS that is the true standard-bearer of Nazism.

Himmler is crazier, going all out esoteric... except after fleeing Germany, he's shifted away from German nationalism and instead seeks to create some kind of new Burgundian culture, one in which ideologically pure French and Belgians can be equal to Germans. This means that Himmler's mad plans might actually work, as he can potentially co-opt the French and Belgians. Himmler also plans to make peace with Germany, believing that it will inevitably collapse while Burgundy endures.

If the struggle between Himmler and Heydrich goes on for too long, the Collaborators strike, overthrowing both of them and seizing power. We'd then get a new power struggle. I'm not entirely sure how they'd break down, but at least one of the Collaborators - probably Degrelle or La Mazière - turns out to be an Esoteric Nazi in his own right, except he wants his own people to be on top. The inevitable result is the simple reformation of Ordenstaat Burgund into Ordre-État de Bourgogne.

 

[3.21869kilometres]

Himmler is still Reichsfuhrer-SS, while Heydrich is the leader of RK Burgund, which is officially just another Reichskommissariat but is unofficially an SS fief. Heydrich will presumably support Himmler's bid to succeed Hitler, but if Himmler fails, Heydrich can offer Burgundy as a refuge, declaring independence and officially forming Ordenstaat Burgund.

And which ever sucessor that wins in Germany is just gonna sit there with their thumb up their arse while this is going on? As soon as Burgundy tries to declare independence, they're getting invaded.

Heydrich is the saner one, intending to rule Burgundy in a manner similar to RK-Kaukasus, as a harsh, hyper-disciplined German regime lording it over the French and Belgians. He's also focused on eventually trying to retake Germany itself, believing that it is the SS that is the true standard-bearer of Nazism.

And how TF he is supossed to retake Germany from Burgundy? He has neither the support, resources etc to accomplish it in Burgundy. You could literally do this "Heydrich seeks to take over Germany" by just keeping him in Germany and going down a mid game crisis ala the Komai coup.

Himmler is crazier, going all out esoteric... except after fleeing Germany, he's shifted away from German nationalism and instead seeks to create some kind of new Burgundian culture, one in which ideologically pure French and Belgians can be equal to Germans. This means that Himmler's mad plans might actually work, as he can potentially co-opt the French and Belgians. Himmler also plans to make peace with Germany, believing that it will inevitably collapse while Burgundy endures.

You're turning the radical German supremacist into someone who wants to elevate other cultures to match his own? Lol current Burgundy content is dogshit but its not even that dumb.

Your point about the collobrators taking control of Burgundy is what's most likely actually going to happen with Burgundy. Burgundy will be a nonminal RK at start but the French SS will take over and attempt a march on Paris when Germany falls into its power struggle. Then it'll essentially be North Korea but somehow even poorer. That's the best way to keep Burgundy in the mod while moving all the German SS to Germany where they can be used properly.

 

[Whiteshore]

Your point about the collobrators taking control of Burgundy is what's most likely actually going to happen with Burgundy. Burgundy will be a nonminal RK at start but the French SS will take over and attempt a march on Paris when Germany falls into its power struggle. Then it'll essentially be North Korea but somehow even poorer. That's the best way to keep Burgundy in the mod while moving all the German SS to Germany where they can be used properly.

On that note, such a Burgundy, with the more radical Collabs there, could be used as a Sword of Damocles to keep the “normal” Collabs in France from being too assertive in seeking true independence from the Reich via an implicit “if you ask for too much, we‘ll sic them on you”.

 

[3.21869kilometres]

On that note, such a Burgundy, with the more radical Collabs there, could be used as a Sword of Damocles to keep the “normal” Collabs in France from being too assertive in seeking true independence from the Reich via an implicit “if you ask for too much, we‘ll sic them on you”.

Exactly. Both the Vichy French government and the French SS will be begging and constantly trying to outdo the other to be receiving German support. Divide and conquer strategy to ensure both of the French states remained tied to the Einheitspakt instead of getting any thoughts about leaving.

The idea above also fits with the confirmed fact that France won't be able to leave the Einheitspakt when it gets content. As they'll be too busy trying to get German support dealing with the insane French SS at their border.

 

[Whiteshore]

Exactly. Both the Vichy French government and the French SS will be begging and constantly trying to outdo the other to be receiving German support. Divide and conquer strategy to ensure both of the French states remained tied to the Einheitspakt instead of getting any thoughts about leaving.

The idea above also fits with the confirmed fact that France won't be able to leave the Einheitspakt when it gets content. As they'll be too busy trying to get German support dealing with the insane French SS at their border.

On that note, such a reworked Burgundy could explore the Collaborationnistes within France, with how they wanted a more radical tone of collaboration than Vichy and all that.

 

[Gukpard]

https://www.reddit.com/r/NPPfunny/s/laDyjHcfHY

 

[Gukpard]

From tvtropes, thanks to @SilverImperator for finding it and thinking that I had written it, but it was someone else

 

[Gukpard]

https://www.reddit.com/r/NPPfunny/comments/1axuldh

 

[12anam]

i watched a french unification super event on youtube and there was a french great trial ending on it it would be nice if devs added more ultramilitarist states

 

[Twiggierjet]

i watched a french unification super event on youtube and there was a french great trial ending on it it would be nice if devs added more ultramilitarist states

Eh, I feel like one is more then enough. Adding more would just start feeling like a meme.

 

[Whiteshore]

i watched a french unification super event on youtube and there was a french great trial ending on it it would be nice if devs added more ultramilitarist states

Eh, I feel like one is more then enough. Adding more would just start feeling like a meme.

The OUN and Long Yun’s China: Am I a joke to you?

 

[12anam]

no i mean a ultramilitarist usa or france

 

[Gukpard]

no i mean a ultramilitarist usa or france

The only form of ultramilitarist France I can think is if the OAS take power.

The interesting thing is that they were adamant on keeping the french colonial empire, so their path could force you to invade Africa.

 

[Twiggierjet]

no i mean a ultramilitarist usa or france

I know, I meant that the mod should not add more ultramilitarist states because having too many would make it feel like a meme (not to mention that the US has no reason to go that radical)

 

[12anam]

also a us civil war path would be really good with a ton of factions and ideologis