The New Order: Last Days of Europe - An Axis Victory Cold War Mod for HoIIV

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brooklyn99

Banned
I would not be surprised if Reg Birch is moderate not because he wants to be moderate, but he wants to avoid the YDL, and when he gets rid of the YDL he will be more like Kaganovich in TNO2. However, he can actually be displaced by more pragmatic or benign authsocs like Yagoda and Kaganovich, or even a "we really mean it and we're not just edgy socdems larping" sort of libsoc. So everything good that can happen on his route happens in spite of him, not because of him.
I would hope so, since I am really not a fan of an OG Tankie being portrayed as something like "flawed but not bad". In particular, the fact that one of the devs believes that Thatcher would be a worse option than Birch had me side-eying (and I am of the opinion that anti-Thatcher sentiment, however understandable they are, have a somewhat overbearing influence in how her content is shaped, though that's another discussion). Rather, it would be more befitting for Birch to have a more similar air to Matkovsky's character, defined by inconspicuous malevolence.
 

chankljp

Donor
If anything, Birch will at the very least have some decent and sympathetic rationale for the cracking down on dissent, as opposed to Yagoda, as the super event deliberately chooses to show a rather brutal terrorist attack on his supporters as the main 'theme' of his rule.
I don't have any evidence for this pure speculation, and might be going a bit 'Red World Bernie' on this... But it is theoretically possible that the terrorist attack as depicted in the super event could be a false flag staged by Birch against the SLP, simultaneously purging the elements of the party that might oppose it AuthSoc policies, while giving him the justification needed to crackdown against the 'reactionaries'.

So, most sane/moderate Russias would settle for more or less OTL Russian Federation borders (sans Kaliningrad) and set up independent governments in the rest of the liberated areas in your opinion?
I don't think they will have much of a choice to do anything beyond that, as they will already have their hands full rebuilding Russia proper after years of war and privation to even be able to think about propping up puppet governments in Central Europe, let alone supporting a long-term military occupation or colonisation program.
 
I would hope so, since I am really not a fan of an OG Tankie being portrayed as something like "flawed but not bad". In particular, the fact that one of the devs believes that Thatcher would be a worse option than Birch had me side-eying (and I am of the opinion that anti-Thatcher sentiment, however understandable they are, have a somewhat overbearing influence in how her content is shaped, though that's another discussion). Rather, it would be more befitting for Birch to have a more similar air to Matkovsky's character, defined by inconspicuous malevolence.
Well, I think there's actually an exceptionally strong argument to make that Birch is better than Thatcher. For one, both of them erode democracy to a fairly similar extent- Birch's rule would at least be better for the average person in terms of standards of living. And I have no idea on how anti-OTL Thatcher sentiment could make TNO Thatcher seem worse than she already is, considering TNO Thatcher is leagues worse than OTL Thatcher, in almost every regard. The one positive I can ascribe to TNO Thatcher that puts her above OTL Thatcher is the fact that she's somewhat more intelligent in how she approaches the economy, opting to introduce milk to schools and some other social programs to make up for the neutering of the working class's ability to defy corporate and state interests.

I don't have any evidence for this pure speculation, and might be going a bit 'Red World Bernie' on this... But it is theoretically possible that the terrorist attack as depicted in the super event could be a false flag staged by Birch against the SLP, simultaneously purging the elements of the party that might oppose it AuthSoc policies, while giving him the justification needed to crackdown against the 'reactionaries'.
While that is certainly a "possibility," I believe one should lean on Occam's Razor and assume that, unless anything significant comes to light, Birch trying to establish a one party ML state in England would upset quite a few people, as stated directly by the devs.
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While that is certainly a "possibility," I believe one should lean on Occam's Razor and assume that, unless anything significant comes to light, Birch trying to establish a one party ML state in England would upset quite a few people, as stated directly by the devs.
All that paints a still shity picture of his regime,so i don't mind.
He can be like a worse version of TTL Castro for the US.
 
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chankljp

Donor
All that paints a still shity picture of his regime,so i don't mind.
He can be like a worse version of TTL Castro for the US.
Yeah, I think comparing him to TNOTL Castro is actually pretty spot on.
Interestingly, in the CIA intelligence report that you can get as the US on England after the SLP won the first election, the Americans will not be that concerned about Birch, since while they want Wilson's moderate reformers to stay in power, they are convinced that AuthSoc or not, Birch will be still pragmatic enough to keep England in OFN. They are, however very concerns about any of Birch's future successors in the hardliner wing of the SLP, who might turn against American national interest.
 
It's just too bad that the Grossafrikaner Reichstat collapse was broken and now doesn't actually happen
I was wondering about that. So I'm not the only one with this issue?
"we really mean it and we're not just edgy socdems larping" sort of libsoc
Wait which path is this? I haven't played all of the available libsoc paths but I played all of the Russian ones and the British one and they all seemed quite nice.
 
Wait which path is this? I haven't played all of the available libsoc paths but I played all of the Russian ones and the British one and they all seemed quite nice.
LibSoc England is SocDem in ideology and are represented as LibSoc because the SLP is a wide left wing coalition.
 
I remember seeing a Polish member on this forum once saying that when the Soviets came towards the end of WW2, their reaction was along the lines of 'At least nothing could be worst than the Germans', so I think that for territories that are directly controlled by the Reich as RKs/Pakt Protectorates/Reichlands, they would have the same attitudes.

And besides, would any of the more benevolent Russian unifiers, or even those that were simply sane and pragmatic, even WANT to keep Eastern and Central Europe under their sphere of influence? Remember, this is not Kaiserreich, and you cannot do stuff like puppeting a large chunk of Europe, balkanize and redraw their boarders at will, put a Romanov on their throne or establishing an ideologically aligned government, etc, and simply call it a day, expecting them to be loyal to you until the end of the game. The historical Warsaw Pact ended up being a massive money drain for the USSR despite all the reparations, and with an even more devastated Russia in TNO, it might end up sinking them as a player trap the same way that the African Mandates could do to the US in an OFN SAW total victory scenario.

Instead, perhaps a lot of them would simply expropriate the assets and property of any German settlers they came across and ship those industrial equipment back east to help with rebuilding Russia's economy (I know this is still not ideal, as it will crash the local economy, but things could be a lot worst), allow free elections to take place (Maybe covertly funding the more pro-Russian/ideologically aligned candidates), and pull out their troops the moment things look stabilised since they are needed back home.
I think they would want to keep Eastern Europe under their influence, just to keep them out of German hands. Mind you, I think a benevolent Russia could pull off a proper alliance, at least as long as Germany is a threat.
 
I would hope so, since I am really not a fan of an OG Tankie being portrayed as something like "flawed but not bad". In particular, the fact that one of the devs believes that Thatcher would be a worse option than Birch had me side-eying (and I am of the opinion that anti-Thatcher sentiment, however understandable they are, have a somewhat overbearing influence in how her content is shaped, though that's another discussion). Rather, it would be more befitting for Birch to have a more similar air to Matkovsky's character, defined by inconspicuous malevolence.
I didn't say Thatcher would be worse, I said that quality of life might be slightly worse under Thatcher than under Birch.

Birch is worse than Thatcher by a... rather significant margin. And much like Thatcher is by most metrics, a rather bad end for England.
 
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brooklyn99

Banned
Well, I think there's actually an exceptionally strong argument to make that Birch is better than Thatcher. For one, both of them erode democracy to a fairly similar extent- Birch's rule would at least be better for the average person in terms of standards of living. And I have no idea on how anti-OTL Thatcher sentiment could make TNO Thatcher seem worse than she already is, considering TNO Thatcher is leagues worse than OTL Thatcher, in almost every regard. The one positive I can ascribe to TNO Thatcher that puts her above OTL Thatcher is the fact that she's somewhat more intelligent in how she approaches the economy, opting to introduce milk to schools and some other social programs to make up for the neutering of the working class's ability to defy corporate and state interests.
This reddit post, I believe, makes a good argument that Thatcher is sort of mischaracterized

And no, a hardline Communist with authoritarian tendencies sure as hell ought not to be considered better than Thatcher. You seem to underestimate how awful Communist dictatorships can get, in a way which defies why the Communist regimes of the Warsaw Pact, which had been forced onto the peoples of Eastern Europe by Stalin's evil empire, ignobly fell asunder through popular pressure in 1989 and with not a single NATO bullet being fired. To me, it shouldn't be a question that Authsocs should not be shown as a better alternative to Authdems.
 
Having thought about it overnight, I think WerBell is my favorite Russia game so far, which is really saying something given how much I like Tomsk. Despite that, while I like WerBell's path--it has just the right amount of blursedness to make it fun and interesting, not to mention the fact that it has crazy fun stuff (and all those Metal Gear references, even if I probably missed half of them due to never having played a Metal Gear game) going on without slipping into pure insanity or terrible awfulness--I did notice a few things that just didn't work that well.

First, the idea of WerBell having to balance between collaborators, skeptical locals, and mercenaries is great. This could even be used to create interesting fail states where there' a revolution or coup against him at the regional or even superregional levels that leads to his "United States" breaking up because he allowed one of their opinions of him to get too low compared to their influence. The problem at the moment is that the implementation of the system is, well, not great. Basically, you just have to fiddle with your cabinet a little once and take a couple of focuses (I think maybe even only one) in the regional political tree, and then you're done for the rest of the game, which is a complete waste of the mechanic. Most basically, it should also be affected by your other decisions and focuses, for example whether to focus on building up a local army with only a core of mercenaries (+collaborators, locals, -mercenaries) or instead build an army almost exclusively of mercenaries (+mercenaries, -collaborators, locals) or so on and so forth. There should also be a collection of decisions or other mechanics that you can use to interact with it on an ongoing basis, for example advertising for mercenaries or expanding the local bureaucracy or rewarding collaborators or the like, with more or less constant interactions going on like the political system in other countries.

Second, the economic tree is grossly imbalanced in favor of free trade with the United States, which offers much better bonuses than industrializing Siberia. Besides interacting with the political mechanic, as mentioned above, some of the U.S. bonuses should be transferred into the Siberian tree (-consumer goods and +construction makes much more sense there as you're working on building up local industry) and the trees in general should be rebalanced. Additionally, I would suggest that some kind of investment mechanic be added, wherein you could add to your national debt/subtract from your reserves in order to build infrastructure/factories/add resources/get research bonuses/etc. Both the U.S. and domestic trees should have access to decisions like this, but with some twists or differences. For example, some of the U.S. decisions might function similarly to certain decisions in China, where you have resources added but they're sold to the Americans (Japanese) and as such you can't access them, at least for a while (this might be annulled in the superregional focus that sends away the American workers/executives, so you would get them back eventually). Or the U.S. decisions might be cheaper but lead to smaller benefits than the equivalent Siberian decisions, since the corporations you're inviting in are both providing some of their own capital (so you don't have to invest as much) but at the same time demand some of the profits in return. It might also function similarly to the "corporate conflict" in Novosibirsk or other similar mechanics in other countries, where the relative strength of mercenary/CIA interests and local/collaborator interests ends up determining which path you can take while offering some intermediate bonuses.

Third, and this is actually an idea I had while writing the above, perhaps there should also be some interactions with the Japanese as well--granted, WerBell is actually American and they would obviously be skeptical of him, but he is in a strategic location for them, there are definite business opportunities in the United States of Siberia, and it's not inconceivable that they could essentially bribe him into being semi-aligned with them, or at least not hostile. This might play into the political mechanic as a whole, so that there might actually be two factions of mercenaries just like there are two faction of Russians--one more aligned with the Japanese and the other more aligned with the United States. This could add extra (mutually exclusive) branches to his foreign policy and economic trees where he aligns with the Japanese covertly or overtly (maybe even a path where he takes covert assistance from both the Japanese and the United States, and likewise has extensive economic activity from both countries). In fact, all of the Harbin Three should have interactions around dealing with the United States and Japan, much like Italy, along with perhaps Irkutsk if it takes the super-NEP path and opens up the economy.

Fourth, some of the bonuses offered by the focuses are...unclear. In particular, the focuses that offer new ministers for the political mechanic are rather obscure, since the tooltip just tells you a name and doesn't explain what they actually do and so allow you to figure out which one works better for your overall strategy. Likewise, the foreign policy tree could be a bit clearer that it offers the ability to send mercenaries to conflict zones, which is after all one of WerBell's signature features. These tooltips could be clarified a little.

Fifth, and in relation to that last one, it would be nice if the mercenary dispatching mechanic was automatically unlocked at regional and the foreign policy tree focuses were more about buffing it by increasing your volunteer numbers and maybe increasing the benefit the target country gets if you offer them a mercenary contract as opposed to unlocking it in the first place. The foreign policy tree isn't typically a priority for Russian countries, both because it doesn't offer that much interesting storytelling in most cases and because it usually doesn't offer large bonuses or significant utility compared to domestic trees. This would be a way of allowing use of, as I said, one of the signature or marquee features of WerBell's path while generally allowing the player to focus on the more immediately useful focuses. Additionally, it would help WerBell get involved in the mid-60s wars, which otherwise he tends to miss due to having to take the focuses first (this would be less of an issue if Hüttig's wild ride was working right now and so there were African wars in the second half of the 1960s to occupy yourself with before the Iberian Wars and Arabian Wars kick off).

Sixth, it might be nice on the U.S. side if WerBell coming out on top unlocked some extra interactions with him via the CIA and even perhaps getting directly involved in his wars through advisors and so on (if he takes the open U.S. support path). Compared to other warlords, he is clearly both easier to reach (given his control of Magadan) and substantially more open to all sorts of U.S. activity that could mask CIA connections than even Petlin's Magadan, besides obviously being directly linked to the CIA himself. It's hard to come up with a Russia that's better for U.S. interests than WerBell's. The CIA could easily set up front companies to invest in Siberian businesses to strengthen him, for example, or set up companies to mask operations in Manchuria and Mongolia similar to Air America (Air Siberia?). NSA listening stations could be set up in the area, too, again possibly under some kind of front or cover story (for example, expanding Radio Free Magadan). Additionally, it might be nice if the CIA could pay for other countries to be sent WerBell mercenaries, as a way to provide assistance to one side in a war without becoming directly involved. For example, this might be a way for the U.S. to get involved in the Second South African Civil War or the Grossafrikaner Reichstaat's collapse without having to commit combat troops--they could send mercenaries to their preferred side or to fight against Hüttig instead of deploying the XVIII Airborne Corps.

Seventh, it's kind of a pity that Petlin isn't a collaborator and just sort of vanishes after the coup without even getting an event to explain where he ended up like Matkovsky does. Given his admiration of the United States, it seems just absolutely perfect narratively for him to transition from being Matkovsky's right-hand man to being WerBell's, trying to steer the latter towards his Cincinnatus path and a focus on the locals and collaborators. This could add all sorts of fun events and interactions where he tries to temper WerBell's crudity and nudge him towards more explicit guarantees of rights, opening up elections to at least some positions, and other reforms. Actually, this could be linked to the wider political mechanic that I mentioned in part 1, which could perhaps be expanded beyond just a "clash of personalities" type of mechanic to involve defining how the state will go in a political or structural sense, which could be combined with events that are shaped by your cabinet members. The events show that WerBell is...well-meaning, perhaps, but not that interested in the day-to-day mechanics of government or really running things except in a broad sense, so I would expect his cabinet ministers to have a large impact on how government works. This could also interact with some of the other mechanics mentioned above, for example having fewer mercenary or CIA ministers would restrict CIA operations, whereas having more might enable a wider range of operations.

(Can you tell that I really, really liked WerBell's Russia?)
 
This reddit post, I believe, makes a good argument that Thatcher is sort of mischaracterized

And no, a hardline Communist with authoritarian tendencies sure as hell ought not to be considered better than Thatcher. You seem to underestimate how awful Communist dictatorships can get, in a way which defies why the Communist regimes of the Warsaw Pact, which had been forced onto the peoples of Eastern Europe by Stalin's evil empire, ignobly fell asunder through popular pressure in 1989 and with not a single NATO bullet being fired. To me, it shouldn't be a question that Authsocs should not be shown as a better alternative to Authdems.
Ladies and gentlemen, aí think the same.


Also, I literally, not joking, had a nightmare today that I was playing TNO and someone had sabotaged Thatcher tree, and there was some stuff like she being a ultranat and you having focuses to legalize slavery. I wish I could remember everything to rebuild the tree on paint, oh well...
 
So, most sane/moderate Russias would settle for more or less OTL Russian Federation borders (sans Kaliningrad) and set up independent governments in the rest of the liberated areas in your opinion?
In my opinion the Russian unifiers may try to reincorporate Belarus and Ukraine into Russia as well. Primarily for historical reasons and because it provides more strategic depth and access to more natural resources with which to rebuild the country.
How easy it would be to reintegrate both Ukraine and Belarus into Russia would greatly depend on what the policies of the Reichskommissariats are and what the ideology of the Russian unifier is.
Given decades of slavery, extermination and exploitation. The population might be willing to give most Russian unifiers a chance, but what then happens long-term will depend on the policy of the various Russian unifiers.

Of course, the costs of rebuilding Moscowy+Ukraine+Belarus would be enormous and would require careful policies. A case could actually even be made that focusing on the people rather than the land would be a better course of action. In effect, moving millions of people eastwards to work in the burgeoning Siberian economy and of the Urals rather than rebuilding the Donbass.
 
This reddit post, I believe, makes a good argument that Thatcher is sort of mischaracterized

And no, a hardline Communist with authoritarian tendencies sure as hell ought not to be considered better than Thatcher. You seem to underestimate how awful Communist dictatorships can get, in a way which defies why the Communist regimes of the Warsaw Pact, which had been forced onto the peoples of Eastern Europe by Stalin's evil empire, ignobly fell asunder through popular pressure in 1989 and with not a single NATO bullet being fired. To me, it shouldn't be a question that Authsocs should not be shown as a better alternative to Authdems.
Oh, yeah, I remember that post. It was..... Interesting, to say the least, especially in how the author of that post apparently used a source that pretended like Thatcher was some kind of progressive icon when it came to homosexuality, when her government literally introduced Section 28, which censored LGBT texts and media. Not to mention that she saw teaching children that homosexuality was alright was "robbing them of a sound start in life." She was a despicable homophobe, and I'd rather not engage in apologia for her actions, which hurt quite a few people and would have hurt many more had her homophobic legislation not been walked back on by later governments.

In addition, I'd also like to point out that TNO Thatcher's government is by no means democratic, at least not in a way that matters. She very explicitly consolidates power in a way that essentially turns her into a dictator ("Thatcher is England and England is Thatcher.") Yes, she does retain a veneer of democratic participation, but so did pretty much every Marxist-Leninist country to ever exist. As does MacMillian, who is similarly undemocratic. Also, it's patently absurd to compare a Birch regime with the regime of an OTL Eastern Bloc country. Beyond the fact that Stalin never even came to power in TNO, and thus his totalitarian methods never entered the socialist mainstream, the fact is that Birch would not have the capacity to rule England in a stalinist way, nor would he have the incentive to. England, as it so happens, is a country that is exceptionally different from, say, 1950s Poland or Hungary, under far different conditions. For one, Birch is a leader of a singular socialist state, whereas the situation in the Eastern Bloc resembled more a patchwork of puppet regimes controlled by a socialist state. Birch, obviously, is not leading a puppet regime in England. He is leading England, not as an economic subservient to any greater power, but instead as a socialist power in of itself.

The devs have very explicitly stated that Birch's regime is by no means "killpeopleist." It is, in fact by their own words, a regime that falls under "the better side of authoritarian socialism" when it comes to the ordinary, common people, only falling under "the worse side of authoritarian socialism" when it comes to political enemies.

Moving back to the post you shared, I frankly don't see much in that post that relates to the question of whether Thatcher is better or worse than Birch, nor is there actually much of substance at all in that post. The arguments that are made boil down to "TNO Thatcher is more authoritarian than OTL Thatcher (which even the author concedes holds no real value as an argument)," "TNO Thatcher does not fit the personality of OTL Thatcher because TNO Thatcher is elitist and doesn't like poor people, unlike OTL Thatcher(something that I frankly would need more than a little evidence to convince me of, especially considering, by the author's own words, Thatcher was raised on a philosophy of calvinist individualism and 'hard work,' a philosophy that is both rather silly and destructive to the poor and disadvantaged)", and that "TNO Thatcher isn't homophobic because one time in the 60s she supported decriminalizing homosexuality (an argument that seems to hold some degree of water at first, except when you remember that Section 28 exists and plenty of the people that supported decriminalizing homosexuality in the 60s only did so because they thought gay people needed to be "converted" rather than imprisoned)."
 
It seems to me whether thatcher or birch will be the worse path largely depends on your own political views, so I am not sure if this argument will go anywhere.
 
My two cents on the Thatcher issue.

Now I am a left winger and I despise Thatcher and everything she stands for IRL. However if I were to say which variant of her is worse, I will honestly argue that IRL!Thatcher is narrowly worse because she is more of a zealot regarding her policies compared to TNO!Thatcher, who's more pragmatic and populist. Obviously for self-serving purposes, but IRL!Thatcher is more unhinged in imposing neoliberalism than TNO!Thatcher.

A sort of comparison could be made between TNO!Thatcher and Francis Urquhart I feel, as well as OTL Putin, in that the character if you think about it, is one of the more cursed flavors of politics in their lust for power, but the way they do things is a bit more nuanced and subdued than I AM THE SENATE PALPATINE TIME. Now Thatcher could go full President Frank Underwood and double down on the unplesant side in TNO2(a chief point of contention regarding US!House of Cards is that they made Underwood a bit more vile and supervillain-y copared to Urquart), and it might inform how the Britain dev look at things, but we won't know until then.
 
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My two cents on the Thatcher issue.

Now I am a left winger and I despise Thatcher and everything she stands for IRL. However if I were to say which variant of her is worse, I will honestly argue that IRL!Thatcher is narrowly worse because she is more of a zealot regarding her policies compared to TNO!Thatcher, who's more pragmatic and populist. Obviously for self-serving purposes, but IRL!Thatcher is more unhinged in imposing neoliberalism than TNO!Thatcher.

A sort of comparison could be made between TNO!Thatcher and Francis Urquhart I feel, as well as OTL Putin, in that the character if you think about it, is one of the more cursed flavors of politics in their lust for power, but the way they do things is a bit more nuanced and subdued than I AM THE SENATE PALPATINE TIME. Now Thatcher could go full President Frank Underwood and double down on the unplesant side in TNO2(a chief point of contention regarding US!House of Cards is that they made Underwood a bit more vile and supervillain-y copared to Urquart), and it might inform how the Britain dev look at things, but we won't know until then.
Well, I think TNO Thatcher's very dictatorial tendencies should probably make her worse than IRL Thatcher. Say what you will about OTL Thatcher's neoliberalism, but when she grew unpopular among the British population, she and her party were put out of power. The same could not happen for TNO Thatcher.
 
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