The Japanese take Darwin in World War II.

[Colonel Grubb]

Where was it claimed they didn't know how to build railroads? The citation of 2004 is pretty obvious; it's expensive and hard to build a railway several hundred miles long through desert. That the Allies went for a road instead of a railway despite the extreme dangers of 1941-1944 speaks volumes.

You're wrong. It wasn't "hard to build" - see the railways all over Northern Australia.

It just wasn't economical to keep it going after it was built - thats pretty much the history of the North Australia Railway when it finally ended in 76/77 when the last major viable user in the shape of iron ore from the Francis Creek mind became uneconomical due to world prices at the time.

Firstly the serious railway proposals were from the Queensland railheads. Your building the line from Dajarra, Qld rail-head to Camooweal then to the rail-head at Birdum/Larrimah. This was being argued for, partly for defence reasons throughout the inter-war era. It also aligns with the material and men heading via Queensland anyway.

In addition, earthworks and permanent way are going to be minimal for this, probably similar to the standards of the branch lines of the time, around 10.75 tonne axle loading, minimum to no earthworks, bridges or ballast with the only thing being steel sleepers used heavily to avoid white ants.

The main reason a railway line wasn't built in the interwar period was because it was unlikely to yield economic returns - with the exception of opening up the excellent cattle country in the Barkley tablelands. That it would be of significant usefulness to defence was secondary to the financial cost - the Queensland and Commonwealth governments could not reach an agreement during the 1930s about who would pay for it, especially if it was not going to be economical - both agreed on the route and the benefits but not the costs.

The OTL strategic situation did not warrant the construction of a railway - with the all weather roads and existing networks enough, if overstretched at times.

In 1942, General Douglas MacArthur proposed building a rail link from Cloncurry in Queensland's north-west to Darwin.

Even though he proposed to build it free of charge using American steel and labour, it was rejected by the Australian government, Mr Compton said.

Source

The US was already heavily supporting the Queensland (and Australian) Railways during the war with the delivery of the AC16 class locomotives and other resources could be pulled from other states to support the network.

At the end of the day, just as in OTL, sea is going to be preferred option over any land based transport during this time for Darwin focused ventures.

 

[sloreck]

While liberating Darwin will bring more "stuff" MacArthur's way, it will take time. Also, most of the resources that would be used for throwing the Japanese out of Australia won't really slow down the Central Pacific drive. In fact naval/amphibious resources that MacArthur used in moving through New Guinea are (mostly) not going to be needed for the retaking of Darwin. This actually gives MORE resources to the Central pacific drive. However long it takes MacArthur to liberate Darwin it will be that much behind the OTL schedule for clearing New Guinea etc. You can be sure that Australian government will not allow any Australian resources to go to other MacArthur offensive action until Darwin is freed from Japanese control, and while more resources will flow to Australia, they will be earmarked for the Darwin campaign and if Mac attempts to poach for his own purposes it won't go well.

 

[Riain]

Curtin became PM on 7 Oct 1941 because 2 independent MPs who supported the UAP/County coalition swapped their support to Labor. Curtin had rejected an earlier offer of a unity government, but I don't know if that was before or after the 1940 election.

The invasion of the NT would drastically change Australian politics, perhaps Curtin would offer a unity government to the UAP & County parties, perhaps this would replace the support of the 2 independents.

In addition Churchill stated that if Australia was invaded he would cut his losses in the middle east to focus on Australia. If such a promise is even partly honoured then the political-military relationships that allowed Mac to run roughshod over Australia would be drastically different. There would likely be British officers and perhaps even British ministers in Australia who would not put up with Macs shit, especially when teamed with Australian pollies and officers who weren't in thrall to macs image.

 

[Chris Triangle]

The liberation of Darwin ITTL would be Australia’s seminal moment in forging its nationalism. Politicians for generations will refer to Darwin’s liberation.

They will refer to more than its mere liberation though, as the fate of the people of Darwin will be far grimmer than that of the town, I'm afraid. Those that have not evacuated will be subject to either forced labor at the hands of the Japanese occupiers or they will simply be deported to some nightmarish Japanese prison camp for "security" reasons long before Darwin is recaptured. These ordeals will not be forgotten and the true legacy of Japan's brutality is likely to sting even worse than it did IOTL and will galvanize Australians as the Battle of Britain did in Europe.

 

[IntellectuallyHonestRhino]

But the fate of the people of Darwin will be far grimmer, I'm afraid. Those that have not evacuated will be subject to either forced labor at the hands of the Japanese occupiers or they will simply be deported to some nightmarish Japanese prison camp for "security" reasons. In any case, the Darwiners will have suffered horrible ordeals and their experiences should be every bit as galvanizing to Australia as the Blitz was to Britain.

ITTL, a major impact on the Australian national psyche, and to this day the war crimes in Northern Australia have been denied by the Japanese government, causing major strains in the relationship between Tokyo and Canberra.

 

[Chris Triangle]

ITTL, a major impact on the Australian national psyche, and to this day the war crimes in Northern Australia have been denied by the Japanese government, causing major strains in the relationship between Tokyo and Canberra.

Any of the sort of casual revisionism that the Japanese have often applied toward their deeds in China and elsewhere will have to deal with substantially angrier Australian ears as well and by extension, those of sympathetic Americans and other Westerners shocked by the events that transpired there (though Asian nations suffered as much or more as IOTL) . In this case, the Japanese may be forced to more completely and openly acknowledge their military's callous brutality towards conquered populations during the war.

 

[IntellectuallyHonestRhino]

Any of the sort of casual revisionism that the Japanese have often applied toward their deeds in China and elsewhere will have to deal with substantially angrier Australian ears as well and by extension, those of sympathetic Americans and other Westerners shocked by the events that transpired there (though Asian nations suffered as much or more as IOTL) . In this case, the Japanese may be forced to more completely and openly acknowledge their tendency towards callous brutality towards conquered populations during the war.

I know that's the more realistic outcome, but it's a funny image where the Australian PM joins the Chinese, Korean and Fillipino premiers in condemning Japan for denying war crimes.


More Australian solidarity with East Asia plus aggravated tension with the west.

 

[NOMISYRRUC]

Darwin is too far away to be a serious threat to the supply line to Port Moresby.

However, what if Darwin had been taken in February 1942 and the Australian Government decided that it was a prelude to an invasion of the rest of Australia?

Would they have evacuated Port Moresby (and Timor) to strengthen the defences of Australia?

 

[NOMISYRRUC]

In addition Churchill stated that if Australia was invaded he would cut his losses in the Middle East to focus on Australia.

That might help the British Middle East in the short term.

The 8th Army might be pulled back to the Alamein Line in February 1942 instead of Gazala. That would have avoided the losses in the Gazala battles, the fall of Tobruk and the OTL retreat to El Alamein.

 

[Riain]

That might help the British Middle East in the short term.

If Australia gets invaded I'd say the Burma theatre would become a real backwater, a holding position.

On another note Mac arrived in Australia a newly minted 4 star General, Wavell who was GOC of India which included South East Asia was promoted to 4 star rank in 1939 so if both were in Australia Wavell would be the senior officer. The presence of so senior a British officer in Australia would complicate the command relationships, probably in Australia's favour.

 

[History Learner]

You're wrong. It wasn't "hard to build" - see the railways all over Northern Australia.

Then why did it take until 2004 to link to Darwin? Even to this day, there is only one rail line connecting Darwin to the rest of Australia through Alice Springs, with two spur lines branching off at Tennant Creek and Katherine.

It just wasn't economical to keep it going after it was built - thats pretty much the history of the North Australia Railway when it finally ended in 76/77 when the last major viable user in the shape of iron ore from the Francis Creek mind became uneconomical due to world prices at the time.

Firstly the serious railway proposals were from the Queensland railheads. Your building the line from Dajarra, Qld rail-head to Camooweal then to the rail-head at Birdum/Larrimah. This was being argued for, partly for defence reasons throughout the inter-war era. It also aligns with the material and men heading via Queensland anyway.

To this day, the only rail connection between Darwin and Queensland is the single line running from Mt. Isa to Tennant Creek.

In addition, earthworks and permanent way are going to be minimal for this, probably similar to the standards of the branch lines of the time, around 10.75 tonne axle loading, minimum to no earthworks, bridges or ballast with the only thing being steel sleepers used heavily to avoid white ants.

Absolutely not and any reading of the building process in the region shows this not to be the case; it took until 1944 just to get an all weather road built because of the local weather conditions.

The OTL strategic situation did not warrant the construction of a railway - with the all weather roads and existing networks enough, if overstretched at times.
Source

The all weather road didn't come into being until 1944 and was severely limited in terms of cargo. Nevermind that if you aren't building air bases along the length to cover it, the Japanese are going to blow it to hell.

The US was already heavily supporting the Queensland (and Australian) Railways during the war with the delivery of the AC16 class locomotives and other resources could be pulled from other states to support the network.

Locomotives aren't a railway, nor does Mac saying something make it true. As I've said previously, them going for a road instead of a railway speaks volumes.

At the end of the day, just as in OTL, sea is going to be preferred option over any land based transport during this time for Darwin focused ventures.

Agreed, hence why I've been saying 1943 or 1944 before a serious attempt can be made to retake it.

Maybe, but it can be done and with enough resources and adequate organisation it can be done relatively quickly.

In World War One the British Empire Forces in the Middle East were able to build a railway from the Suez Canal to Haifa in Palestine.

In World War II the Royal New Zealand Corps of Engineers supervised the construction of the Western Desert Extension Railway from the vicinity of Mersa Maruth to the vicinity of Tobruk. They were able to build 2 miles a of railway a day.

http://nzetc.victoria.ac.nz/tm/scholarly/tei-WH2Engr.html

http://www.qattara.it/versione in arabo/Here is the story of the Western Desert Railway.pdf

Could they eventually do it? Most definitely. In a reasonable timeframe? No, absolutely not.

The nearest rail head from Larrimah is Alice Springs and Mt. Isa, at 621 miles and 686 miles respectively. Assuming they somehow can get the resources needed to build the railway and have sufficient stocks on hand to begin immediate construction as well as maintain that two miles a day capability, it's going to take 311 days to complete a railway from Alice Springs and 343 days from Mt. Isa. This also assumes the weather, which collapsed the overland road route in Mid-1942 and meant construction could not be carried out for part of the year, has no effect on building the railway.

What extreme dangers? Australia wasn't under any real threat the entire war and wasn't even under a preceived threat after mid-1942.

The Australian Joint Chiefs and their American counterparts, the Allied personnel stationed at Darwin, and finally the Aussies and Americans fighting and dying in New Guinea, the Solomons and at the Coral Sea very much beg to differ. The entire reason Port Moresby was defended, the U.S. committed to Coral Sea and did its first offensive moves of the war at the Solomons was to prevent exactly this threat. Hell, it took into late 1943/early 1944 to gain air superiority over Darwin.

Why? The US isn't inept. The US would probably sends the materials and pays for it. It cuts back somewhere else in the Pacific.

You're welcome to cite where the U.S. built a 600 to 700 mile railway in the Pacific.

The US puts down airfields far faster than that. It has bulldozers and it doesn't take much to put down a simple airstrip. You are talking weeks not months or years.

Read up on the conditions in Northern Australia; the overland road route in mid-1942 literally collapsed due to weather and it took until 1944 to complete an all weather road. To get air bases, you're going to need to make serious infrastructure builds and leap frog them over 200 miles or so.

Which won't last long due to US fast airstrip building capacity and huge plane production .

Plane production is irrelevant to the airbase issue.

It won't take that long, you vastly underestimate Wallied logistical building capacity.

Could they eventually? Yes. Is it going to be anytime before mid to late 1943? Definitely not.

 

[Errolwi]

Then why did it take until 2004 to link to Darwin? Even to this day, there is only one rail line connecting Darwin to the rest of Australia through Alice Springs, with two spur lines branching off at Tennant Creek and Katherine.

Because there was no economic reason to do so, as has been stated before. The delay wasn't due to any lack of the right equipment or anything, so do you have a point?

Which won't last long due to US fast airstrip building capacity and huge plane production .

Plane production is irrelevant to the airbase issue.[/QUOTE]

What is the point of this comment? Plane production is one of the required components of an effective defense, so the comment you are responding to is covering off that element as well.

 

[History Learner]

Because there was no economic reason to do so, as has been stated before. The delay wasn't due to any lack of the right equipment or anything, so do you have a point?

It is uneconomical to build largely in part at the cost and difficulty of doing so; take in note how the process to finally do it began in 2001 and it still took into 2004 to get the thing finished for very obvious reasons of the poor weather during parts of the year as well as the fact the sheer distance means its almost a Trans-Continental project. As I've repeatedly stated, the fact they choose to rely on the low capacity road project and take the danger of moving shipping to it directly speaks volumes.

Australian industry, unless someone has evidence otherwise, can't really support it and, while the U.S. can, it's not going to be able to for at least a year or so. I'm not even sure if then it is possible, given 1943 featured a very major shipping crunch for the Allies and shipping over rail in bulk means giving up other resources in Australia.

What is the point of this comment? Plane production is one of the required components of an effective defense, so the comment you are responding to is covering off that element as well.

That the U.S. is producing, say, "1,000" P-40s a month is pretty irrelevant to the specific point here. You must first ship them to Australia, assemble them, and then build up the infrastructure to even get to use them. The earliest you could start getting air fields into commission to cover the beginning of a railway project is the Fall of 1942 and from there you have to leapfrog bases after about every 200 miles of track.

 

[History Learner]

Not sure he's actually considered the geographic context: Japanese naval or amphibious forces going to Moresby from the west need to pass through the Torres Strait... which is a right bloody mess of reefs, islands and shoals.

As it stands there's only a handful of routes suitable for large ships to pass through the Torres Strait, and most of those are very narrow and go directly past the major settlement in the region, Thursday Island (complete with 1890s vintage fort plus any coast defences added during the war). Add mines and small craft to the mix and the way through to Moresby is thoroughly barred.

Now, Japanese airpower might make resupplying Moresby more difficult than OTL, but: shipping route under air attack >> muddy single file track through the mountains...​

The Japanese likely had better maps of the Straits then the Allies had in 1942. Little known fact of the White Australia Policy is that it wasn't really applied to the North, so that large communities of Japanese (And Chinese) had developed in Broome and Darwin prior to the war. Further in this regard, many of the Japanese inhabitants were rather special; the Japanese used to be to pearl diving what the South Africans are to diamonds. Through information collected from them and extensive Pre-War spying directly through the Embassy (During the turnover of diplomatic personnel early in the War, they even managed to smuggle maps out with them), the Japanese were well aware of the Torres Strait and how to navigate it.

 

[Gunner's_Quadrant]

On another note Mac arrived in Australia a newly minted 4 star General, Wavell who was GOC of India which included South East Asia was promoted to 4 star rank in 1939 so if both were in Australia Wavell would be the senior officer. The presence of so senior a British officer in Australia would complicate the command relationships, probably in Australia's favour.

Not quite accurate. MacArthur reverted to his 4-star rank in December 1941, he had been a 4-star general while Chief of Staff of the Army and his seniority would be based off when he first assumed the rank in 1930. He will be considered the senior general in theater over Wavell. That was the problem that FDR faced when considering what to do with Mac, wherever he went he would be the senior general/flag officer. Best to let him start in the relative backwater of the Southwest Pacific.

 

[History Learner]

Also, if the Japanese take Darwin in February, MacArthur is no longer a factor in the Pacific War; he was evacuated to Darwin in March and there is no other location he can do so by plane.

 

[Johnrankins]

It is uneconomical to build largely in part at the cost and difficulty of doing so; take in note how the process to finally do it began in 2001 and it still took into 2004 to get the thing finished for very obvious reasons of the poor weather during parts of the year as well as the fact the sheer distance means its almost a Trans-Continental project. As I've repeatedly stated, the fact they choose to rely on the low capacity road project and take the danger of moving shipping to it directly speaks volumes.

The fact that Darwin is roughly half the size of Madison, WI has a lot to do with it. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Darwin,_Northern_Territory https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Madison,_WisconsinMadison isn't exactly a big rail center either. There is simply no reason to run a big railroad to Darwin. If there were a need for it , it would be built.

That the U.S. is producing, say, "1,000" P-40s a month is pretty irrelevant to the specific point here. You must first ship them to Australia, assemble them, and then build up the infrastructure to even get to use them. The earliest you could start getting air fields into commission to cover the beginning of a railway project is the Fall of 1942 and from there you have to leapfrog bases after about every 200 miles of track.

The shipment of planes will take a couple months or so. The distance between Los Angelos and Darwin, Australia is a little 7898 miles or 6,963 nautical miles. Even if the transports go at a mere 3 knots it would get there in 3 months and even WW2 transports go faster than that.

The airfields themselves can be built virtually overnight. All you need for a rudimentary airstrip is cement, a tent, a radio, a few big tanks for oil storage and an electrical generator. Of course, you will build it over time but it will do in a pinch. Building airfields quickly is something the Seabees did well.

 

[Gunner's_Quadrant]

Also, if the Japanese take Darwin in February, MacArthur is no longer a factor in the Pacific War; he was advocated to Darwin in March and there is no other location he can be evacuated to by plane.

Huh???

 

[Fearless Leader]

Another thought: IIRC the Australians had been preparing units which included Aborigines to engage in coast watching and eventually guerilla warfare in the event of a Japanese invasion. Given what happened in OTL in Timor there's a good likelihood that the Japanese are going to have to deal with significant partisan/commando attacks during their occupation of Darwin. This in conjunction with aerial attacks and submarine activity is going to make their occupation increasingly difficult as the war progresses.

 

[History Learner]

Huh???

Darwin was the only Allied position he could be evacuated to by plane in March of 1942 due to range and lack of our bases with said range.