The Japanese take Darwin in World War II.

Darwin secures the Western approaches to Port Moresby and ties down Allied fighters defending Australian cities.
Not sure he's actually considered the geographic context: Japanese naval or amphibious forces going to Moresby from the west need to pass through the Torres Strait... which is a right bloody mess of reefs, islands and shoals.

As it stands there's only a handful of routes suitable for large ships to pass through the Torres Strait, and most of those are very narrow and go directly past the major settlement in the region, Thursday Island (complete with 1890s vintage fort plus any coast defences added during the war). Add mines and small craft to the mix and the way through to Moresby is thoroughly barred.

Now, Japanese airpower might make resupplying Moresby more difficult than OTL, but: shipping route under air attack >> muddy single file track through the mountains...​
 
Darwin secures the Western approaches to Port Moresby and ties down Allied fighters defending Australian cities.

Even if it was as easy to throw air raids against Townsville as it was from Rabaul to Guadalcanal (which had its own problems OTL), wouldn't this just create an earlier opportunity for a war of attrition against the Japanese for allied forces? And over much better air bases than Guadalcanal? Allies can always ship more planes and personnel to bigger Australian harbors and move them to combat via land. And as an added bonus the Japanese aviators would face off against far more numerous USAAF pilots and planes than the marines had in Guadalcanal.

Of course there is the option of sticking to smaller nuisance raids, but there was this capability in OTL anyways with longer range flying boats.
 
More of a matter of not wanting to lose infrastructure. The Dutch sabotaged oil facilities at Balikpapan prior to this...
Recovering from a bad Candy Crush Soda Saga experience here, and short on enthusiasm, so I'll confine myself to a response to just this one. I found what appears to be a historical website specifically about Sparrow Force during the original timeline WW2 and:
….The first objective of the Japanese was the airfield, lightly defended by a section of A platoon. Explosive charges had been set to blow up the small airstrip and facilities. Initial Japanese forces were mistaken as Dutch because of the similarities in their uniforms however sporadic fighting around the airfield continued all night with only a small number of A platoon holding the Japanese advance at bay.

As dawn broke, they detonated charges at the strip and withdrew quickly to the south and west...
http://www.sparrowforce.com/portuguese east.htm

The original timeline allies were trying to demolishing airstrips, in February 1942, once the Imperial Japanese landed (and indeed in this case they succeeded.)

By the way: @Zheng He
This site looks like it might be of interest to you for research for your Indian Ocean Raid timeline if you haven't come across it already, as if you can navigate around it, it actually goes into detail listing officers in the original timeline Sparrow Force.
 

What does that have to do with anything? It didn't get built until then because it didn't pay off to do it before then, not because the Australians are incapable of building railroads! If Darwin is captured, it then it pays off and is built. One change in TTL is that Darwin has rail connections much earlier.

You seem incapable of figuring out that the Wallies will change their weapons locations and logistical capacity if the situation changes which was far from the truth. Allowing the Japanese to change things while the Wallies are incapable of doing such puts the finger down hard on the Japanese side of the scale!
 
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What does that have to do with anything? I didn't get built until then because it didn't pay off to do it before then not because the Australians are incapable of building railroads! If Darwin is captured, it then it pays off and is built. One change in TTL is that Darwin has rail connections much earlier.
And it will need them because there will be little left of Darwin when it is retaken and quite a lot of supplies needed to rebuild the town and port.

As for the railroad, Australia should indeed be able to build it reasonably fast, especially if they have plenty of earthmoving equipment on site, fuel, parts and mechanics. The Americans will be finishing up their Alaskan highway by the end of October in 42, which they fast tracked after the Japanese Aleutian landings. If they are on board, they will consequently have a great many operators and engineers available should they need to lend them. If there is a shortage of unskilled laborers, there is also the option import them from elsewhere in the Commonwealth - probably India.
 
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And it will need them because there will be little left of Darwin when it is retaken and quite a lot of supplies to rebuild the town and port.

One question for Australia is whether to attempt the construction of this route with domestic workers or whether they would import laborers from elsewhere in the Commonwealth - probably India.

My guess is that they would use their own workers, Any movement of workers from India would have to go around areas the Japanese control, greatly lengthening the trip and the Australians would want it done ASAP.
 
My guess is that they would use their own workers, Any movement of workers from India would have to go around areas the Japanese control, greatly lengthening the trip and the Australians would want it done ASAP.
Sorry for the ill timed edit... Anyway, I am inclined to agree. And with the fate of Darwin in their minds, these workers are going to be about as motivated as one can be. Unfortunately for them, they may well find themselves working at their hardest in the Outback heat in summer.
 
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probably India.

Um no.

First the White Australia Policy will get you.

Then the Unions will leave your favorite horse's head in your bed.

Various transport links were creeping their way to Darwin through the second half of the war, being built by locals with US support. At the same time it may be just as easy to work around the coast using the inevitable naval superiority.
 
Sorry for the ill timed edit... Anyway,I am inclined to agree. And with the fate of Darwin I their minds, these workers are going to be about as motivated as one can be. Unfortunately for them, they may well find themselves working at their hardest in the Outback heat in summer.

That might slow them down a bit but it won't stop them. They will have to drink a lot of water though.
 
Um no.

First the White Australia Policy will get you.

Then the Unions will leave your favorite horse's head in your bed.

Various transport links were creeping their way to Darwin through the second half of the war, being built by locals with US support. At the same time it may be just as easy to work around the coast using the inevitable naval superiority.
Well you're right about that.

Regarding the coast, I assume you are talking about the route from Queensland along the southern shore of the Gulf of Carpentaria (as opposed to starting from Broome). This is an option, but beyond the end of the existing railhead near Karumba, there is minimal habitation and virtually nonexistent infrastructure. More problematic is that this terrain is more difficult than it would look on a map. As far as I understand, the Gulf Country is subject to monsoons in summer that wash the roads out and cause all sorts of flooding and muckiness. The route from Alice springs seems rather easier to me and I think there is a good reason that this is the connection to Darwin that was favored OTL for both rail and road. It is also probably less subject to tropical diseases so that's another benefit.
 
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That might slow them down a bit but it won't stop them. They will have to drink a lot of water though.
Of course not. But having experienced Australian heat, I can say that it will make the operation very unpleasant and there will, unfortunately, probably be even more accidents and fatalities than otherwise when something is being done at such a pace. But when the line gets built, the challenge of completing it is going to illustrate the perseverance and courage of these workers and make for a national legend in its own right.
 
Looking wider, the 9th division will be bought home and not available for El Alamein and Australia will not support anything that doesn't put the recapture of the Top End first. I doubt Curtin and MacArthur will have such a harmonious relationship in this scenario unless mac puts us first . I also doubt that the shocking command relationships would be tolerated and imagine that Australia will gain a lot more confidence in dealing with great and powerful friends as more of an equal.
 
I imagine Mac wouldn't be that upset and somewhat easier to deal with. Defending Australia makes convincing FDR of his Southern Route easier. My guess is the Southern Route gets more support than OTL.
 
What does that have to do with anything? It didn't get built until then because it didn't pay off to do it before then, not because the Australians are incapable of building railroads!

Where was it claimed they didn't know how to build railroads? The citation of 2004 is pretty obvious; it's expensive and hard to build a railway several hundred miles long through desert. That the Allies went for a road instead of a railway despite the extreme dangers of 1941-1944 speaks volumes.

If Darwin is captured, it then it pays off and is built. One change in TTL is that Darwin has rail connections much earlier.

Sure, but it's going to take until at least 1944 to complete it. Speaking of which, where does the materials come from and who pays for it? Australia certainly can't manage it and the U.S. is already supporting the Soviet railway network in addition to its own and other allies.

You seem incapable of figuring out that the Wallies will change their weapons locations and logistical capacity if the situation changes which was far from the truth. Allowing the Japanese to change things while the Wallies are incapable of doing such puts the finger down hard on the Japanese side of the scale!

No, I'm pretty sure I've never stated anywhere or even suggested the Allies cannot change anything or that only the Japanese can. As I've stated from the very beginning, it's going to take until 1943 or 1944 to be able to mount an offensive against Darwin. There's no nearby Allied air bases, so those will have to be built up to cover building the logistics net for such a move; as pointed out earlier, it took until 1944 just to get an all weather road and its capacity restrictions severely limit it's usefulness. To get a railway is going to take much longer, given the resource needs of that are much more intense.

The Allies could do the end run around it and attempt a sea invasion, but, again, they'll need to build up air and naval bases to support such. Approaching from the West is pretty much impossible given the lack of sufficient port facilities outside of Perth and then having to brave the Torres Strait with Japanese air superiority. Approaching from the East means the nearest port is Townsville, so again you'll need to build up air bases, otherwise the Japanese have air superiority.

Being someone who actually learns from history, I'll just leave this here.

https://www.ww2places.qld.gov.au/places/?id=1065

Unlike the Nazis, the Allies were actually *good* at logistics ... and remember, they did this without an invasion to throw back.

You might want to read the dates, which stipulate it was finished in 1944 as well as the capacity limitations and technically hurdles.

Even if it was as easy to throw air raids against Townsville as it was from Rabaul to Guadalcanal (which had its own problems OTL), wouldn't this just create an earlier opportunity for a war of attrition against the Japanese for allied forces? And over much better air bases than Guadalcanal? Allies can always ship more planes and personnel to bigger Australian harbors and move them to combat via land. And as an added bonus the Japanese aviators would face off against far more numerous USAAF pilots and planes than the marines had in Guadalcanal.

Of course there is the option of sticking to smaller nuisance raids, but there was this capability in OTL anyways with longer range flying boats.

Absolutely, hence why I've repeatedly said 1943 or 1944 is the end date for Japanese Darwin. People seem to conflate "Japan does better" with "Japan wins" in this thread.

The original timeline allies were trying to demolishing airstrips, in February 1942, once the Imperial Japanese landed (and indeed in this case they succeeded.)

Yes, said airfields were back in operation rather quickly however and used to launch raids on Australia.
 
Where was it claimed they didn't know how to build railroads? The citation of 2004 is pretty obvious; it's expensive and hard to build a railway several hundred miles long through desert. That the Allies went for a road instead of a railway despite the extreme dangers of 1941-1944 speaks volumes.
What extreme dangers? Australia wasn't under any real threat the entire war and wasn't even under a preceived threat after mid-1942.

Sure, but it's going to take until at least 1944 to complete it. Speaking of which, where does the materials come from and who pays for it? Australia certainly can't manage it and the U.S. is already supporting the Soviet railway network in addition to its own and other allies.
Why? The US isn't inept. The US would probably sends the materials and pays for it. It cuts back somewhere else in the Pacific.

No, I'm pretty sure I've never stated anywhere or even suggested the Allies cannot change anything or that only the Japanese can. As I've stated from the very beginning, it's going to take until 1943 or 1944 to be able to mount an offensive against Darwin. There's no nearby Allied air bases, so those will have to be built up to cover building the logistics net for such a move; as pointed out earlier, it took until 1944 just to get an all weather road and its capacity restrictions severely limit it's usefulness. To get a railway is going to take much longer, given the resource needs of that are much more intense.
The US puts down airfields far faster than that. It has bulldozers and it doesn't take much to put down a simple airstrip. You are talking weeks not months or years.


The Allies could do the end run around it and attempt a sea invasion, but, again, they'll need to build up air and naval bases to support such. Approaching from the West is pretty much impossible given the lack of sufficient port facilities outside of Perth and then having to brave the Torres Strait with Japanese air superiority. Approaching from the East means the nearest port is Townsville, so again you'll need to build up air bases, otherwise the Japanese have air superiority.
Which won't last long due to US fast airstrip building capacity and huge plane production .

Absolutely, hence why I've repeatedly said 1943 or 1944 is the end date for Japanese Darwin. People seem to conflate "Japan does better" with "Japan wins" in this thread.
It won't take that long, you vastly underestimate Wallied logistical building capacity.

Yes, said airfields were back in operation rather quickly however and used to launch raids on Australia.

The US will build more of them and quicker.
 
Recovering from a bad Candy Crush Soda Saga experience here, and short on enthusiasm, so I'll confine myself to a response to just this one. I found what appears to be a historical website specifically about Sparrow Force during the original timeline WW2 and:
http://www.sparrowforce.com/portuguese east.htm

The original timeline allies were trying to demolishing airstrips, in February 1942, once the Imperial Japanese landed (and indeed in this case they succeeded.)

By the way: @Zheng He
This site looks like it might be of interest to you for research for your Indian Ocean Raid timeline if you haven't come across it already, as if you can navigate around it, it actually goes into detail listing officers in the original timeline Sparrow Force.

Thanks for that...
 
Looking wider, the 9th division will be bought home and not available for El Alamein and Australia will not support anything that doesn't put the recapture of the Top End first. I doubt Curtin and MacArthur will have such a harmonious relationship in this scenario unless mac puts us first . I also doubt that the shocking command relationships would be tolerated and imagine that Australia will gain a lot more confidence in dealing with great and powerful friends as more of an equal.

I could see MacArthur viewing a Japanese seizure of Darwin as one giant opportunity for self promotion. He would argue very strenuously that even more resources need to be sent his way because recapturing Darwin absolutely must have first priority. The Japanese have after all invaded a valuable ally and must be stopped before they take the whole blinking continent. He will of course insist on leading the counteroffensive (not sure how that plays in Canberra) and his route back to the Philippines will now be through the Australian NT to Timor and up through the archipelago north of Timor. Doug will present himself to Curtin as the hero who got Washington and London to pony up resources they otherwise would not have, assuming he gets his way.
 
I could see MacArthur viewing a Japanese seizure of Darwin as one giant opportunity for self promotion. He would argue very strenuously that even more resources need to be sent his way because recapturing Darwin absolutely must have first priority. The Japanese have after all invaded a valuable ally and must be stopped before they take the whole blinking continent. He will of course insist on leading the counteroffensive (not sure how that plays in Canberra) and his route back to the Philippines will now be through the Australian NT to Timor and up through the archipelago north of Timor. Doug will present himself to Curtin as the hero who got Washington and London to pony up resources they otherwise would not have, assuming he gets his way.

Agreed, particularly since he had a lot of good press. You could very well see the Southern Route being the main route instead of the Central Route. The fact that the most important regional ally in the area was invaded makes it more important looking. Austrailia will push hard for the Southern Route, at least at first, to protect Australia. This could be the start of a good Southern Route TL.
 
it's expensive and hard to build a railway several hundred miles long through desert. That the Allies went for a road instead of a railway despite the extreme dangers of 1941-1944 speaks volumes.
Maybe, but it can be done and with enough resources and adequate organisation it can be done relatively quickly.

In World War One the British Empire Forces in the Middle East were able to build a railway from the Suez Canal to Haifa in Palestine.

In World War II the Royal New Zealand Corps of Engineers supervised the construction of the Western Desert Extension Railway from the vicinity of Mersa Maruth to the vicinity of Tobruk. They were able to build 2 miles a of railway a day.

http://nzetc.victoria.ac.nz/tm/scholarly/tei-WH2Engr.html

http://www.qattara.it/versione in arabo/Here is the story of the Western Desert Railway.pdf
 
Removing Darwin forces the Allies out of New Guinea and the Solomons which, in addition to airbases around Darwin itself, threaten much of the logistics stream to Australia. I don't think the Japanese will be able to cut it off but, combined with Australia political will being focused on liberating Australian soil first, will keep the Aussies from doing much else in the Pacific for a time and renders the place useless as a strategic base.


The liberation of Darwin ITTL would be Australia’s seminal moment in forging its nationalism. Politicians for generations will refer to Darwin’s liberation.
 
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