The Heirs of Henry VIII and Katherine

Thanks, I lost a lot of research after the computer crash, among it a HUGE amount of 15th and 16th century English info. So, I didn't remember the Lancaster bit nor do I know if I even knew it to begin with! (Been a while, I've slept since last year. Can't complain much - the closest I got to COVID was reading/hearing about it on the news.)

Any opinions on whether H8 would make a daughter a lower rank than a son (Duke)?
 
Thanks, I lost a lot of research after the computer crash, among it a HUGE amount of 15th and 16th century English info. So, I didn't remember the Lancaster bit nor do I know if I even knew it to begin with! (Been a while, I've slept since last year. Can't complain much - the closest I got to COVID was reading/hearing about it on the news.)

Any opinions on whether H8 would make a daughter a lower rank than a son (Duke)?

Probably, since Henry wasn't exempt from thinking that daughters were lesser than sons.
 
Thanks, I lost a lot of research after the computer crash, among it a HUGE amount of 15th and 16th century English info. So, I didn't remember the Lancaster bit nor do I know if I even knew it to begin with! (Been a while, I've slept since last year. Can't complain much - the closest I got to COVID was reading/hearing about it on the news.)

Any opinions on whether H8 would make a daughter a lower rank than a son (Duke)?
Pretty unlikely he would give them titles at all (as that would be seen as highly unusual). Still in England women (excluding few cases) never held in their own right higher titles than Countess
 
Pretty unlikely he would give them titles at all (as that would be seen as highly unusual). Still in England women (excluding few cases) never held in their own right higher titles than Countess

Well, Anne was a marquess but I suspect that doesn't really compare since they were betrothed.
 
thought I'd drop in. I've finished July (and only July). The Boleyns are here. In the story, I mean. (okay, Elizabeth and Mary are here, George is at home, Anne is with Margaret. Thomas seems to be hiding from me. Don't ask me why.) Hope to post tomorrow.
 
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1514 Jul - Dec
Towards the end of July the last of the proposed maids of honor (in England) arrived with her mother at court. The 14 year old eldest daughter of Sir Thomas Boleyn arrived to be fitted for the wardrobe expected of a maid to the Princess. Henry VIII was paying for the fanciest of the wardrobe items, so that English women would make an impression on the French. Some of the older women going were jealous, there were far fewer of them receiving such gifts from the King. Lady Elizabeth Boleyn was thrilled to have a second daughter at a foreign court - her younger daughter Anne was already abroad at the court of the Regent of the Netherlands, Margaret of Austria. Anne's fluency in French and desire to learn the writing of it, along with her father's diplomatic friendship with the great lady, had gotten her there.

Henry, still touchy about Spanish attachments, had his sister ask Sir Thomas to have Anne brought back to England so she might accompany the household with everyone else attending the Princess. Boleyn, who liked Margaret and knew her to be fond of Anne, was of a divided opinion on the matter; but his wife Elizabeth was not. So, semi-reluctantly (having two daughters with the Queen of France would bring just as much honor) and diplomatically, he wrote in August to the Regent, asking that his younger daughter be sent home with the message bearer to prepare to join Mary. The messenger returned alone, Anne was with Margaret at one of her estates, away from her official residence. Anne's arrival in France might well be from Margaret's home.

The Queen knew better than to expect fidelity from her husband during a pregnancy; it disappointed her that he'd chosen to accept the flirtation of Bessie Blount as an invitation and now had the girl in his bed. Bessie's father, who served the King personally, had to know of it. She wondered how he bore the humiliation of a daughter behaving as a whore. Unless he had encouraged her to profit from the association. Katherine learned from others that he had not encouraged it and chose to emulate his Queen in responding to it; that it, he didn't. Which made Katherine sorry for the girl, as the available sons of higher-ranking nobles would not wed the King's whore without great inducement.

Princess Mary left in late September for Calais; she did not wish to wed King Louis XII, but had extracted from her brother a promise that her next husband would be chosen by her. He would have agreed to anything to get her to go. He had no intention of keeping the promise, for he knew of her infatuation with Charles Brandon. Charles, for his part, had never behaved with anything other than proper courtly behavior. With any luck, Brandon would be married again before Louis died (which Henry was hoping happened at least a year from the wedding). She arrived in France at the start of October and by mid-way through the month, she was the crowned Queen.

November ended in sorrow. Katherine was delivered of a stillborn son on the 17th, the day before she was to go into confinement. Henry was in mourning as well, but told Wolsey it was but a temporary bump. They had two healthy sons, surely more would follow. She mourned until the end of the month, then Henry insisted that she cooperated in celebrating Christmas. She kept her sorrow to herself and went along as if nothing had happened. Amidst the preparations and celebrations, Katherine learned that since Henry had returned to her bed, Bessie Blount had found another to warm. The Queen considered telling her husband about the girl's going to another man's bed, but only for a moment. Henry could be angry and take it out on the man, even though he was a close companion. It was okay if the King dishonored one of her ladies, but quite another if the man had been 'invited' to share her. Katherine sighed as her ladies prepared her bed. Two more days until January, she hoped it brought better than 1514.
 
Pretty unlikely seeing Mary going in France when Henry can seal peace with France with a wedding between his heir and princess Renee
 
I've based the union on the need/desire of Louis XII to have a son, not a cousin/son-in-law as an heir. He lost his wife and now has a chance with a young, nubile Princess of the Blood from England. He's also got things like the Mirror of Naples to dangle in front of her brother....

The brokering about Hal and Renee that began shortly after their births dissolved in 1513 and has not been renewed.

H8 is pissed with his wife's "relations" at this point. He's looking to return the favor. This is the easiest way to do it. This way his family is united with France and he can find another throne to unite with the marriage of Hal.
 
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I've based the union on the need/desire of Louis XII to have a son, not a cousin/son-in-law as an heir. He lost his wife and now has a chance with a young, nubile Princess of the Blood from England. He's also got things like the Mirror of Naples to dangle in front of her brother....

The brokering about Hal and Renee that began shortly after their births dissolved in 1513 and has not been renewed.

H8 is pissed with his wife's "relations" at this point. He's looking to return the favor. This is the easiest way to do it. This way his family is united with France and he can find another throne to unite with the marriage of Hal.
The point is who Henry is NOT so likely to break Mary’s engagement to Charles instead of waiting if he has other pawn to offer for seal the peace with France.
 
Louis was DESPERATE. Seriously, the more he thought about, the angrier H8 got about his father-in-law, the more he wanted to distance himself. Renee has at least 10 years before she could wed Hal. Louis is offering: Cash, jewels, items that Henry wants. H8 succumbs, if you will, to temptation and his own temper.
 
Louis was DESPERATE. Seriously, the more he thought about, the angrier H8 got about his father-in-law, the more he wanted to distance himself. Renee has at least 10 years before she could wed Hal. Louis is offering: Cash, jewels, items that Henry wants. H8 succumbs, if you will, to temptation and his own temper.
Henry was the one offering his sisters in OTL. Louis was NOT in the position to ask for such match
 
Okay, I get it, you think Princess Mary of England, daughter of King Henry VII, should not have married Louis XII. I can respect that. But....I think it's a possibility when Henry is so angry and Mary making little pretense at concealing her affection for Brandon. He may have been trying to keep his sister from getting Brandon killed.
 
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What about the upcoming events of 1515-1516? Louis' death, Francis' pursuit of widowed Mary during her "watch" confinement, the hasty marriage.....

Anyone?
 
Has Henry 8 had any bastards at this point?

Can Katherine do much to bring Henry back to ‘the faith’ as she sees it?

Who are the likely candidates marriages for Henry and Katherines existing children now?

Mix up OTL events for 15-16 if your like, let the wings flutter!
 
1515 begins....
1515 January

Not quite a week into the month, the subjects of King Henry VIII were surprised to hear:

"...and, finally, we petition the Lord our God on behalf of both our King's most beloved sister, Queen Mary and her husband, King Louis XII of France, imploring God to maintain her health and restore it to her husband so that they may prosper and be fruitful in their union..."

Louis had begun the year in a severe attack of gout that made his cousin and son-in-law Francis prematurely anticipating the throne.
 
Guess who is NOT going to rescue Mary Tudor by wedding her? (No points, too obvious) He gonna have to find another..... And Mary's marital history will be different.
 

Deleted member 147978

Guess who is NOT going to rescue Mary Tudor by wedding her? (No points, too obvious) He gonna have to find another..... And Mary's marital history will be different.
If Mary Rose Tudor's martial history is going to be different, who will Charles Brandon marry if she's not available?
 
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