I know, I've had some really good times comparing etymologies in other books I've gotten before this one. Sometimes funny.
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The Heirs of Henry VIII and Katherine
- Thread starter desmirelle
- Start date
Well, at this point, there are no little grandprinces or grandprincesses running about. If you've got daughters and there are only so many firstborn sons about, you could do worse than sending your third daughter to England to wed the Duke of York.
Not daughters of Kings or first rate matches, but foreign noblewoman, junior princesses (aka members of junior branch of ruling families) or daughters of some German Duke or other minor rulers could work perfectly.
I could just roll, but I think this time (probably the first time, maybe not, I seem to remember doing it before this TL), what does the crowd think?
Choices:
He never marries (which means another whole round of "why he didn't" or "how did he die")
He weds later (he'll wed between his 27th and 33rd birthdays, I didn't roll, I just asked my brother to pick two numbers between 21 and 40, he picked 27 & 33. I love randomizing. In What Mistress Boleyn Wants, my therapist picked a random number in the span I gave her - no spoilers for that thread, sorry, not sorry - so I know how old the Dowager Duchess of Northumberland in that TL will be when she dies.) But, I digress.
Anne Bourchier. English, heiress. The biggest problem I can find with her is her drama. She was wed in 1527 (a ten year-old) to Sir WIlliam Parr (Katheryn's older brother), didn't live with him for 12 years, couple didn't get along and she ran off with someone around 1541 or so, had children, Parliament got involved in 1543 (to "stop the bastard from claiming Parr's estate is my guess - had her lover been a gentleman instead of the Prior of St. James's Church, I imagine this wouldn't have hurt Parr's ego so much.) Apparently, Katheryn used her Queenly influence for her brother (can't blame her, he was her brother). He was no angel, either. He began the courtship of Elizabeth Brooke (the niece of his mistress); and finally, in 1552, Parliament cleared enough of a backlog to declare the Bourchier/Parr union null and void on 31 March. HOWEVER, as a royal bride, I don't see this happening. John ain't boring.
Katherine Howard, daughter of a Duke (three guesses as to which one and first two don't count!). She's background in OTL (no scandals).
Frances de Vere. OTL wed Earl of Surrey.
I was originally disappointed that Anne Stanhope got rolled out, but then realized as bossy as she was to Edward Seymour OTL would probably get her killed by Prince John (which would be covered up as a suicide or accident, I suppose - and make a great ALT TL about whether or not Prince John killed her!) I need to stop dwelling on John's marriage, so give me reasons (arguments/debates, whatev) about the above five.
Choices:
He never marries (which means another whole round of "why he didn't" or "how did he die")
He weds later (he'll wed between his 27th and 33rd birthdays, I didn't roll, I just asked my brother to pick two numbers between 21 and 40, he picked 27 & 33. I love randomizing. In What Mistress Boleyn Wants, my therapist picked a random number in the span I gave her - no spoilers for that thread, sorry, not sorry - so I know how old the Dowager Duchess of Northumberland in that TL will be when she dies.) But, I digress.
Anne Bourchier. English, heiress. The biggest problem I can find with her is her drama. She was wed in 1527 (a ten year-old) to Sir WIlliam Parr (Katheryn's older brother), didn't live with him for 12 years, couple didn't get along and she ran off with someone around 1541 or so, had children, Parliament got involved in 1543 (to "stop the bastard from claiming Parr's estate is my guess - had her lover been a gentleman instead of the Prior of St. James's Church, I imagine this wouldn't have hurt Parr's ego so much.) Apparently, Katheryn used her Queenly influence for her brother (can't blame her, he was her brother). He was no angel, either. He began the courtship of Elizabeth Brooke (the niece of his mistress); and finally, in 1552, Parliament cleared enough of a backlog to declare the Bourchier/Parr union null and void on 31 March. HOWEVER, as a royal bride, I don't see this happening. John ain't boring.
Katherine Howard, daughter of a Duke (three guesses as to which one and first two don't count!). She's background in OTL (no scandals).
Frances de Vere. OTL wed Earl of Surrey.
I was originally disappointed that Anne Stanhope got rolled out, but then realized as bossy as she was to Edward Seymour OTL would probably get her killed by Prince John (which would be covered up as a suicide or accident, I suppose - and make a great ALT TL about whether or not Prince John killed her!) I need to stop dwelling on John's marriage, so give me reasons (arguments/debates, whatev) about the above five.
Meanwhile, Hal & Renee are having the longest wedding night ever. Might as well be in Nuvuk (formerly Point Barrow), Alaska in January.
If his parents are scared, angry or both for his treatment of Renée is pretty likely who they would decide who he need to be much older and more mature before marrying and is not like they absolutely need his marriage for securing the succession with Henry married and Edward engaged. Things then can evolve in a wedding in his late 20s or early 30s, specially if they have the chance for some interesting foreign match or with him not marrying at all (john can very well decide who he like the life of the bachelor)
No way anything like Anne’s OTL scandals would EVER happen if she is a Royal Duchess. She would be eminently suitable as Duchess of York, but her father would be interested in marrying her to John considering who he would surely know his reputation?
In OTL she died young. Her father was much ambitious and pretty interested in marrying off her well and soon (in OTL she was married at 14 to the Earl of Derby, who was her father‘s ward but died after few months with Derby remarrying to one of her father‘s half-sisters) so she would be without doubt the likeliest sacrificial victim if Henry and Catherine decide who marriage is the best way for pushing to mature
Daughter of a great friend of Henry VIII, I am not sure of how much ambitious her father would be
With the marriage/not marriage question much would depend from Henry and Katherine‘s feeling about what would be better for John: marrying him off hoping who he would mature OR wait for him to mature before marrying (this is something who depend only from you or your rolls).
Once chosen that: for the no marriage (now) both options are valid, for the marriage now the order of likelihood of brides is: Katherine Howard, Anne Bourchier and Frances de Vere (with the choice between the first two depending mostly from how much ambitious is Anne‘s father)
If he's marrying around his 27th birthday, he can even marry his father's OTL wife - the actual scandalous Katherine Howard. Now that'll be fun...
I'm making no comment about poor Catherine Howard. She was sexually abused, housed with WOMEN as well as girls, uneducated (could barely write her own name) and virtually SOLD to Henry VIII by greedy and ambitious relatives. And then they give her Lady Jane Rochford, whose common sense was buried with her husband and no instructions on how to be queen.
Yeah catherine Howard was a victim of rape and blackmail, far from being ‘scandalous’ (whatever stories people may want to spin about her)
I was going to add that some of the women were married (some were at Lambeth fleeing abusive husbands) and they and the older girls were letting men into the dormitory at night. To answer @ordinarylittleme's query. Just had connection problems and couldn't 'fix' my post.
June 1526 -
Night, 8 June
Katherine and Marie were in the former's rooms, chatting about everything, from how they hated the English custom of putting the couple to bed to whether Henry VIII would take his wife's suggestion of waiting for John to mature more before finding him a match to how much they hated the thought of their daughters going off to foreign lands and many topics in between.
Henry VIII was with the Dukes and other nobles, all gaming their money away to one another. The coinage was dizzy from the exchanges.
As for Hal and Renee, well, they were seen to be bedded officially (with the rigamarole both Katherine and Marie destested).
John was locked in his room - he'd tried to hide in the bridal suite. He wasn't alone, though: William and a priest were there. John sulked (in bed) while the other two discussed rumors of reform and how all reformers were going to bed, with the priest explaining to William why they were all hellbound. (William liked religious talk slightly less than he liked being kicked in the balls, but it shut John up, so he let the priest talk.)
Mary was enjoying being the center of all the girls, while the twins were fast asleep in the royal nursery.
9 June
The sheets and Renee's discomfort provided proof that this was one marriage that had been well consummated.
The breakfast had the young couple as the center of the feast, both looking a bit tired. Henry and the two queens were pleased, Henry was hoping the next generation was underway and the women were glad Renee got through her first time without her trauma panicking her. John was unusually quiet. The priest, not William, was his 'companion' for the next month.
15 June
Queen Regent Marie of France and her corterie were seen off by Henry VIII and Katherine. The newlyweds were off on their own in another castle; all the parents decided they needed time away from court to get to know one another. Renee was a little upset that only the older girls were going, Clemency and another girl were going to join Henry's and Katherine's eldest daughter to expand her circle of girls.
Katherine and Marie were in the former's rooms, chatting about everything, from how they hated the English custom of putting the couple to bed to whether Henry VIII would take his wife's suggestion of waiting for John to mature more before finding him a match to how much they hated the thought of their daughters going off to foreign lands and many topics in between.
Henry VIII was with the Dukes and other nobles, all gaming their money away to one another. The coinage was dizzy from the exchanges.
As for Hal and Renee, well, they were seen to be bedded officially (with the rigamarole both Katherine and Marie destested).
John was locked in his room - he'd tried to hide in the bridal suite. He wasn't alone, though: William and a priest were there. John sulked (in bed) while the other two discussed rumors of reform and how all reformers were going to bed, with the priest explaining to William why they were all hellbound. (William liked religious talk slightly less than he liked being kicked in the balls, but it shut John up, so he let the priest talk.)
Mary was enjoying being the center of all the girls, while the twins were fast asleep in the royal nursery.
9 June
The sheets and Renee's discomfort provided proof that this was one marriage that had been well consummated.
The breakfast had the young couple as the center of the feast, both looking a bit tired. Henry and the two queens were pleased, Henry was hoping the next generation was underway and the women were glad Renee got through her first time without her trauma panicking her. John was unusually quiet. The priest, not William, was his 'companion' for the next month.
15 June
Queen Regent Marie of France and her corterie were seen off by Henry VIII and Katherine. The newlyweds were off on their own in another castle; all the parents decided they needed time away from court to get to know one another. Renee was a little upset that only the older girls were going, Clemency and another girl were going to join Henry's and Katherine's eldest daughter to expand her circle of girls.
Blah post, I know, but Hal and Renee were getting bedsores from me not moving the story along! (See post #405)
Having decided to delay John's matrimonial experience, the next in line is Princess Mary. Who are her suitors? (Foreign, as befits a princess of the blood.)
The ATL King of France, Hans of Denmark (b. 1518) [although he might go for Eleanor], James V of Scotland...
Question for @desmirelle - was the Mary Rose been built in 1510 ITTL?
The sinking in 1545 during a French invasion attempt might still happen. Henry does not seem on a trajectory to avoid it ITTL.
The sinking in 1545 during a French invasion attempt might still happen. Henry does not seem on a trajectory to avoid it ITTL.
Gee golly whiz, don't you hate when you have to tend to reality and what you really want to do has to wait?