Depends on the period. Originally, Isabella was far more common. Then Elizabeth started to be used. It was the name of one of John of Gaunt's daughters and I think one of Edward the First's granddaughters also had that name. In the late 14th century and early 15th century both were equally used, but by the Tudor period Elizabeth had won. I can't think of any noblewoman in Henry VIII's reign called Isabella (although there might have been some) but I know for sure there were plenty of Elizabeths.
The Heirs of Henry VIII and Katherine
- Thread starter desmirelle
- Start date
Actually it was his youngest daughter, the countess of hereford. but yeah, you're right that isabel/isabelle/isabella was initially more popular. the last person of any significance i can think of with that name is honestly isabel neville, wife of george, duke of clarence.
That was entirely fault of her parents and her own inability to live on a budget
1514 Jan - June
1514 January to June
The year started out with Prince Hal's birthday (held on the 10th so it was a separate event from Christmas/New Years celebrations). At three years, he was already fluent in English and Spanish. He seemed to have a talent for languages, already he was trying to speak French (from courtiers and his father), His parents decided to add Latin and then Welsh when it turned out the young priest was from Wales and English was his second language - Latin his third. Other languages would follow as the child grew.
February was when Henry began openly complaining about "your relations" in conversations with Katherine. He spoke of ending his sister's engagement to the still-underage Charles on the continent. Katherine listened carefully and realized that he was serious this time. He was convincing himself that a French alliance was better for England. That meant the Queen must tell Mary what her brother was thinking - if it were presented to her the way Henry was doing now, Mary would put up a fight. She'd seen Mary angry and the girl was a match for her brother in that department. Henry's apparent delight in his father-in-law's ill health, conveyed by letters from Spain, troubled her more. For all his mass attendance, church attendance and charitable acts, Henry was veering away from the good Catholic he had been and been corrupted by secular men - craving power through him - speaking poison in his ears. Wolsey was the worst; he abused his position in the church and had gotten power from the King. Katherine thought him no more a priest and Holy Father than her maid-of-honor Bessie Blount (she had arrived a year earlier and seemed more interested in flirting than aiding her mistress). Wolsey was corrupt in both his physical and his spiritual centers.
March was when things began to feel unsettling to Katherine. Henry was in the process of 'diplomatically' breaking his sister's engagement and simultaneously negotiating terms with Louis XII for a marriage to the French King. His discussions with Louis had progressed to the point that Henry, over both his sister's and wife's objections had ordered Mary's trousseau to be created. And the Queen felt ill all the time. Mary, on the other, was besieging her brother. She wanted a concession before she would consent. It was late April before Mary got her concession from Henry. He agreed that she could pick her second husband. And so, on 9 May, Mary had a proxy wedding, with the Duc du Loungueville followed by a proxy 'consummation' that consisted of the touching of the legs on a 'marriage' bed.
June was a month of preparation and concern. Preparation for the upcoming trip to France, selections of who would go to France with Mary; Katherine was still feeling ill, she'd realized she was pregnant at the beginning of the month which caused her concern - she'd never been ill for this long before.
The year started out with Prince Hal's birthday (held on the 10th so it was a separate event from Christmas/New Years celebrations). At three years, he was already fluent in English and Spanish. He seemed to have a talent for languages, already he was trying to speak French (from courtiers and his father), His parents decided to add Latin and then Welsh when it turned out the young priest was from Wales and English was his second language - Latin his third. Other languages would follow as the child grew.
February was when Henry began openly complaining about "your relations" in conversations with Katherine. He spoke of ending his sister's engagement to the still-underage Charles on the continent. Katherine listened carefully and realized that he was serious this time. He was convincing himself that a French alliance was better for England. That meant the Queen must tell Mary what her brother was thinking - if it were presented to her the way Henry was doing now, Mary would put up a fight. She'd seen Mary angry and the girl was a match for her brother in that department. Henry's apparent delight in his father-in-law's ill health, conveyed by letters from Spain, troubled her more. For all his mass attendance, church attendance and charitable acts, Henry was veering away from the good Catholic he had been and been corrupted by secular men - craving power through him - speaking poison in his ears. Wolsey was the worst; he abused his position in the church and had gotten power from the King. Katherine thought him no more a priest and Holy Father than her maid-of-honor Bessie Blount (she had arrived a year earlier and seemed more interested in flirting than aiding her mistress). Wolsey was corrupt in both his physical and his spiritual centers.
March was when things began to feel unsettling to Katherine. Henry was in the process of 'diplomatically' breaking his sister's engagement and simultaneously negotiating terms with Louis XII for a marriage to the French King. His discussions with Louis had progressed to the point that Henry, over both his sister's and wife's objections had ordered Mary's trousseau to be created. And the Queen felt ill all the time. Mary, on the other, was besieging her brother. She wanted a concession before she would consent. It was late April before Mary got her concession from Henry. He agreed that she could pick her second husband. And so, on 9 May, Mary had a proxy wedding, with the Duc du Loungueville followed by a proxy 'consummation' that consisted of the touching of the legs on a 'marriage' bed.
June was a month of preparation and concern. Preparation for the upcoming trip to France, selections of who would go to France with Mary; Katherine was still feeling ill, she'd realized she was pregnant at the beginning of the month which caused her concern - she'd never been ill for this long before.
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You're being rather hard on a girl who had been looked after all her life (not taught to run a household); her parents had half a dowry to pay, true enough. But Henry VII could have easily taken the money out of the money due her as Dowager Princess of Wales. But the death of Arthur was not considered in their negotiations, so neither paid. None of the ADULTS WITH THE MONEY cared to worry about her: they were bickering about whether she would return to Spain or marry Arthur's younger brother. Then the two sneaky Kings lost their wives. And then Katherine, who had a husband and wife running things in her household (she likely had no idea of costs to do so). Henry VII could have sent her home, he didn't so he, like Ferdinand was playing both ends against the middle.
So, I stand by Isabella should have had the sense to bring her youngest home. Katherine was educated, but not in housekeeping or running a household - she had a right to expect to be kept as a Princess (of Wales or of Spain) until matters on her future were decided. It wasn't her fault that neither king manned up.
To be fair, Catherine living on a budget just isn't feasible. There are certain expectations on how a (Dowager) Princess of Wales was supposed to live, which is also the same reason why a lot of the nobility racked up debts, and as she was technically part of Henry's household it was supposed to be his responsibility to see that those expectations were met so as not to embarrass the Crown.
But also, Catherine was taught how to run a household. What is a court, after all, than simply just a larger household?
But also, Catherine was taught how to run a household. What is a court, after all, than simply just a larger household?
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As her wedding was NOT consummated and the remaining of her dowry would be paid only for her wedding to Henry HER PARENTS AGREED who she was NOT entitled to any money from Henry VIII. Her expenses were still to be pause by her parents until her wedding to the younger Henry. And once Ferdinand demonstrated to be unreliable, the dowry was not paid and the wedding failed was Ferdinand the one who needed to call her back in Spain. She was free to go for Henry VII, if her father sent her a ship to take her back.
The fault was all on Ferdinand‘s side as he was the one who had NOT kept his obligations to Catherine because Henry VII had NONE towards her.
We will never know if Katherine's and Arthur's marriage was consummated. It may well be that Arthur was so underendowed that a well-endowed Henry made her think Arthur didn't. Or it wasn't and she said nothing as to not humiliate her husband. Or she could have convinced herself Arthur never did. BUT....Henry VII let her be addressed as the Dowerager Princess of Wales but did not pay her the monies due her as such. Henry VII, with possession of her person and claiming her to be the widow of his late son meant that Henry VII was responsible for her (unless he sent her back). Yeah, after their wives died, both Ferdinand II of Aragon and Henry VII of England were less gentlemen and more 16th century douchebags when it came to Princess Katherine.
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No. As the wedding was NOT consummated and the dowry was not fully paid and was to be paid ONLY when she married the younger Henry, Ferdinand AND Isabella EXPLICITLY agreed who Catherine was not entitled to any English revenue so Henry VII was NOT the one in fault. and Ferdinand and Isabella were the ones who would need to sent a ship for Catherine’s return in Spain
Anyhow, the reason I got back on wasn't to contribute to the digression. I'm having Prince Henry, Duke of Cornwall made Prince of Wales at five, just before his mother goes into confinement in 1516. Prince John will be made Duke of York in 1518. Should the daughter have a special title (like an earlier Princess Royal?) in 1521?
IIRC the title only came about with the Stuarts and Henrietta Marie asking the eldest daughter have a special title akin to the French Madame Royale, so no, the eldest daughter in Tudor times would just simply be referred to as the Princess X. Then again, firstborn daughters are more celebrated at birth and at their baptism ceremonies than the younger ones, so there's that.
Although, of course, knowing Henry, he might just do that and steal a title from the French.
Oh yeah, also, you guys are aware that fasting in the Catholic tradition simply means abstaining from meat and dairy on certain days right? That it's not the same as literally starving yourself? idk it always confuses me that people suggest that as a reason for why CoA's children are stillborn/miscarried, when skipping meat shouldn't affect a baby
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I am, I can't speak for others. I've seen cervix insufficiency given as an excuse. But, Katherine had had a bad diet due to her treatment (no matter which King's fault it was) for at least three years at a critical time. And her post-marriage fasting has been described as excessive, which leads me to believe that she may have been eliminating foods she liked as well required fasting elements, leading to maybe not ill health, but health that might not support a successful pregnancy.
Henry doing this is what I'm aiming at; I'm just not sure how Madam Royal has been around. For all I know, Henry might grant his daughters Dukedoms or Marquessate in their own right. Since the Prince of Wales and Duke of York are set for boys, I'm looking into Henry, as the second Tudor, trying to 'puff' up with titles for daughters and third sons.
VVD0D95
Banned
I think the Madam Royal stuff started with Henri IV of France, when he created his daughter Elisabeth, Madame Royale. Before that I'm not sure if there was a specific designation for the eldest daughter of the King of France. @Kellan Sullivan likely knows more on this though.
I've seen some people treat it like she was starving herself and having an eating disorder, which it's not, so I wanted to clarify if everyone in the thread is on the right page.
She DID carry religious fasting to some rather strenuous levels, which was definitely a factor towards her health. Although she did this while queen as well. In fact, Juana was the only one of Isabel la Catolica's daughters who didn't undertake this level of religiosity AIUI.
Madame Royale only came in with Henri IV, before that, a French kings daughter was simply "Madame Name, fille de France" regardless of her marital status. Least in several documents of the day they refer to "Madame Louise, daughter of François I" or "Madame Isabeau/Isabelle, daughter of Henri II". The duke of Alba refers to "Madame Isabelle" and Mary, QoS speaks of "Madame Claude (duchess of Lorraine".
(Sigh) I was hoping for a more creative suggestion on the topic, but it seems Princess Royal (at least for the eldest daughter) is what I'm stuck with.
Either that or give her a Duchy in her own right? Richmond, maybe, or Somerset - I assume Hal Fitzroy won't be a big deal in this AU, if he's born at all!
Possible Dukedoms: Lancaster, Clarence, Gloucester, RIchmond, Somerset, possibly Bedford.
I was wondering if H8 would make daughter Marquis in the their own right rather than Duke (chauvinism).
I was wondering if H8 would make daughter Marquis in the their own right rather than Duke (chauvinism).
Unlikely to be Lancaster, actually. You'd have to break Edward IV's Act that declared the Duchy of Lancaster the private, personal inheritance of the reigning monarch, and I don't see Henry doing that... Not for a girl, anyway.
Any of the others would work though!