The Great Crusade (Reds! Part 3)
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Bulldoggus
Banned
I went to a Tank Camp near the Golan Heights. Awesome stuff. Had a hell of a time. To this day, my favorite tank is the Chariot.
That's something that will be developed in revisions, but the short answer is that it's a reaction to Soviet bellicossity that the country's foreign policy pivots against the Soviets. And they want to be at the winner's table.
Their treatment of Kurds and Armenians is historical Turkish policy towards ethnic minorities magnified by a wartime environment.
Finland is at worst complicit with the excesses of their allies, but are not directly involved with them.
Swedish historical eugenics policy was among the worst of any nation outside the Axis IOTL. They were not a cuddly liberal paradise, and in a context where native grown Nazis are invited into power by the king Mussolini style, and fully supported as collaborator regime by Nazi Germany, they have just as much potential to be awful as any other.
And this is a regime that rules at the barrel of a gun because there is considerable domestic resistance.
I would like to echo the requests for more elaboration on the courses of Turkish politics that led to them siding with Nazi Germany. While Ataturk and his subordinates were certainly not nice to Kurds and other minorities, they weren't super-hardcore, and in general they wouldn't be big fans of getting tied up with a European alliance.
Bulldoggus
Banned
Yeah. I cannot sufficiently say how non-genocidal he was. He was happy to ignore them as long as they kept their language and culture private.
Obergruppenführer Smith
Banned
It's the opposite extreme of "purity": "we are superior because we are mixed."
In a way, if you spin Brazilian Integralism just right..... it can turn into "anti-racism" given just how "European" Argentina and Uruguay was.
So yeah, it takes mental gymnastics, but a right-wing "multiracial" versus left-wing "European" war can happen in South America. It's probably an issue how you push things to that extreme end.
Bookmark1995
Banned
It's the opposite extreme of "purity": "we are superior because we are mixed."
In a way, if you spin Brazilian Integralism just right..... it can turn into "anti-racism" given just how "European" Argentina and Uruguay was.
So yeah, it takes mental gymnastics, but a right-wing "multiracial" versus left-wing "European" war can happen in South America. It's probably an issue how you push things to that extreme end.
ITTL, we're there plenty of black Integralists? Or did Salgado mistreat Afro-Brazilians as well?
Obergruppenführer Smith
Banned
You could also add something about how Soviet support for rebellions such as OTL Dersim drained a lot of blood and goodwill from the Turkish government, to the point they did the same thing as what the Ottoman did in the war hysteria.
Obergruppenführer Smith
Banned
I cannot answer for the TL itself, but I just had a talk with an old friend who has a very interesting idea, based on her dabblings into alternate history.
There was the Frente Negra Brasileira (Brazilian Black Front) originating in the city of São Paulo, led by Arlindo Veiga dos Santos, an immigrant from Bahia and part-time journalist. He had connections with Salgado and other Brazilian Integralists, although this would later be split due to OTL Integralist slowly accepting racist members.
So, what if, the Integralists were even more anti-immigrant than OTL, with full merging with FNB and other Afro-Brazilian movements? UASR's existence has turned Europe far more to the right, so it is likely left-wing Europeans will look to the Americas. Perhaps even more will go to South America, where the displacement and "job stealing" that occurs further agitates anti-"Aryanization" sentiments, when combined with the fact that European socialists were still quite racist, compared to UASR's more open society.
Thus, the existence of UASR ironically caused the right-wing turn of otherwise left-wing Afro-Brazilians, leading to the extremely warped Integralist of Reds!
Bookmark1995
Banned
I cannot answer for the TL itself, but I just had a talk with an old friend who has a very interesting idea, based on her dabblings into alternate history.
There was the Frente Negra Brasileira (Brazilian Black Front) originating in the city of São Paulo, led by Arlindo Veiga dos Santos, an immigrant from Bahia and part-time journalist. He had connections with Salgado and other Brazilian Integralists, although this would later be split due to OTL Integralist slowly accepting racist members.
So, what if, the Integralists were even more anti-immigrant than OTL, with full merging with FNB and other Afro-Brazilian movements? UASR's existence has turned Europe far more to the right, so it is likely left-wing Europeans will look to the Americas. Perhaps even more will go to South America, where the displacement and "job stealing" that occurs further agitates anti-"Aryanization" sentiments, when combined with the fact that European socialists were still quite racist, compared to UASR's more open society.
Thus, the existence of UASR ironically caused the right-wing turn of otherwise left-wing Afro-Brazilians, leading to the extremely warped Integralist of Reds!
I have a feeling Afro-Brazilian Integralists would strive to SURPASS the brutality of their pardo and white counterparts.
The result is that while present day Brazil ITTL maybe more free, Afro-Brazilians could still be marginalized.
The integralists aren't genocidal in the sense that they want to exterminate populations (except for the Jewish people), they're more like the Japanese in the sense that they're very, very bad at restraining the more brutal impulses of the army. It's not helped by the fact that the philosophy of the guard is that it does not matter what you do as long as you win, and it's dominated by a clique of people who believe that they're hard men making the hard decisions that their effete enemies are too weak to make. They massacred civilians in the iron cage not for the lulz, but because they believed that if the enemy knew what they were doing they would rush to try and stop them even if it meant abandoning strategic positions and fall into their traps. Bogata was not ordered destroyed for reasons of genocide but simply to try and break the will of Colombia so that it would surrender to Venezuela's demands of annexation. When Colombia at the time has more than three times the population of its neighbour, there is a certain logic in...reducing that advantage to begin with. A horrific logic that is not acceptable under any sane set of ethics, but it is one all the same.
As for turkey, under my current notes it's lead by Fevzi Çakmak when it joins the Axis, and not without considerable internal resistance.
Finland has no participation in any of the general war crimes of the Axis besides their OTL ruthlessly efficient partisan hunting programs which still went out of their way to leave Soviet civilians alone. It's the constancy of the war crimes that their allies commit that drives them to switch sides (also getting drubbed repeatedly) to begin with.
As for turkey, under my current notes it's lead by Fevzi Çakmak when it joins the Axis, and not without considerable internal resistance.
Finland has no participation in any of the general war crimes of the Axis besides their OTL ruthlessly efficient partisan hunting programs which still went out of their way to leave Soviet civilians alone. It's the constancy of the war crimes that their allies commit that drives them to switch sides (also getting drubbed repeatedly) to begin with.
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Bookmark1995
Banned
I now this a somewhat grim question, but is the ITTL Holocaust much more bloody than the OTL Holocaust? I mean, there are more countries willing to wipe them out.
I can't give any exact numbers but I will note that it's less a matter of how many more Jews are murdered, and more a matter of which Jews are murdered. Jewish emigration to the New World was orders of magnitude more intense because the UASR, Mexico, Nicaragua and Chile considered everyone fleeing fascist oppression refugees, and would assist emigration and support them financially. So German, Austrian, Czechoslovakian (and to a lesser extent, Polish Jews) are able to escape Europe completely in far greater numbers, probably the largest diaspora to the New World since the Great Hunger in Ireland.
However, countries like Spain and Sweden, which were not hit by the Holocaust IOTL, are part of the battlegrounds. The USSR is occupied for a longer period of time, but the advance is slower, allowing more evacuation and more preparation for underground resistance, so in all that's probably a push. Italy doesn't succumb fully to Nazi race law due to their greater relative independence.
Of course, the biggest single change is the Holocaust in South America. Though the Jewish population is small in South America at the time, it's a considerable tragedy.
Bookmark1995
Banned
So while there are a greater number of forces willing to hunt Jews than OTL, there are countries that actually give a damn about them.
Some things are worse, but some things are better.
Seems like an interesting take.I cannot answer for the TL itself, but I just had a talk with an old friend who has a very interesting idea, based on her dabblings into alternate history.
There was the Frente Negra Brasileira (Brazilian Black Front) originating in the city of São Paulo, led by Arlindo Veiga dos Santos, an immigrant from Bahia and part-time journalist. He had connections with Salgado and other Brazilian Integralists, although this would later be split due to OTL Integralist slowly accepting racist members.
So, what if, the Integralists were even more anti-immigrant than OTL, with full merging with FNB and other Afro-Brazilian movements? UASR's existence has turned Europe far more to the right, so it is likely left-wing Europeans will look to the Americas. Perhaps even more will go to South America, where the displacement and "job stealing" that occurs further agitates anti-"Aryanization" sentiments, when combined with the fact that European socialists were still quite racist, compared to UASR's more open society.
Thus, the existence of UASR ironically caused the right-wing turn of otherwise left-wing Afro-Brazilians, leading to the extremely warped Integralist of Reds!
I can buy Kemalism turning genocidal. It was quite nationalistic, and ethnic cleansing was carried out against Armenians and Greeks even when Ataturk was fully in control.
Anyway,anyone can point me out to the parties of the UASR and their positions on issues post?
